Unethical Treatment of Animals

[DarkAngel_]

If you want to see unethical treatment of animals have a look inside one of the pig factories in Manitoba. Its disgusting. The sows are kept in cages so small they can not even turn around. They each sit in a "slot" once impregnated, until just before they give birth. They can not move back or forward or even turn around. They stand for months with head in the tough and their ass in position over the shit gutters. The corporatization of the farming industry leads to worse and more inhumane treatment of animals. Nothing matters but bigger profits.

now this i can agree with, but my q is what is a better alternative that does not cost much? unfortunately due to economy scares we cannot change much. (i have no idea what could be changed to help) thoughts any one??? i say open field farming! happy chickens taste happier!

[WIP]

I'll make sure that at least one certain flowering plant never goes extinct during my lifetime lol

hmm well i guess Indica and Sativa are two different species of plant so I'll make sure two flowering plants never go extinct.

I think I know what kind of plants you're referring to, but on a serious note, it struck me that of all the stories about the threat of extinction of mammals, reptiles, birds, insects, amphibians etc. this was one of the few references to plant extinctions I've come across, even though it only stands to reason that if there has been a sharp increase in animals being added to endangered species lists, then there must be a similar decline in diversity in the plant world.

[WIP]

now this i can agree with, but my q is what is a better alternative that does not cost much? unfortunately due to economy scares we cannot change much.

The almighty dollar trumps animal welfare just as quickly as environmental issues apparently.

There is an alternative though. Quit eating meat, or at least make some serious cutbacks in consumption of meat and animal products, since a large share of the health problems North Americans are suffering from are either directly or indirectly related to consuming too much meat. And since the livestock industries have a large environmental impact, there would be environmental reasons for cutting meat consumption as well.

[DarkAngel_]

The almighty dollar trumps animal welfare just as quickly as environmental issues apparently.

There is an alternative though. Quit eating meat, or at least make some serious cutbacks in consumption of meat and animal products, since a large share of the health problems North Americans are suffering from are either directly or indirectly related to consuming too much meat. And since the livestock industries have a large environmental impact, there would be environmental reasons for cutting meat consumption as well.

well unfortunately again i stress we don't act as collectively as people think, industry will still raise and people will eat what is readily available to them, it is natural suvivalism (minus the wilderness.) but i do think more fish oriented places of the fast food industry may help kick the curb on red meat consumption. that and chicken but there is too much animal cruelty there as well... in need of minor reform (i signed the peda-2 petition against KFC... i miss fried chicken.)

[Oleg Bach]

If we stopped robbing pigs cows and chickens of their protein..and stopped killing them - what would we do with 5 million cows wandering about...and a billion pigs rooting ruts into every suburban lawn in Canada - and chickens fighting it out with city pigeons for roosting spots..

[cybercoma]

What are we going to do about the problem of animals suffering horribly in the wild? They have to maim and kill one another for survival. It's just not right. Those poor animals living through agony.

[cybercoma]

But cybercoma, we're of a higher consciousness than the animal kingdom. We don't NEED to eat animals for protein. There are plenty of plant sources, such as soy and quinoa, that provide complete protein chains. If our unethical treatment of animals is unnecessary than we should discontinue doing so.

[Oleg Bach]

What are we going to do about the problem of animals suffering horribly in the wild? They have to maim and kill one another for survival. It's just not right. Those poor animals living through agony.

Animals do not suffer in the wild - they do what amimals do - this warped empathy reminds me of a person crying at a funeral - They appear to be weeping for the dead - but in truth they weep out of fear for themselves - maybe we are disturbed by the abuse of lower creatures because we know if the abuse and torment becomes ecceptable - we the human beings will be next..that is my concern.

[Muddy]

How do I like my steak. Cut off it`s horns and wipe it`s bum and pass it over the barby.

[DrGreenthumb]

But cybercoma, we're of a higher consciousness than the animal kingdom. We don't NEED to eat animals for protein. There are plenty of plant sources, such as soy and quinoa, that provide complete protein chains. If our unethical treatment of animals is unnecessary than we should discontinue doing so.

God no don't make me eat soy, I'll be good to my chickens right up until I behead them. Actually the fresh eggs are delicious and have much more colorful yolks than the store bought variety.

[WIP]

well unfortunately again i stress we don't act as collectively as people think, industry will still raise and people will eat what is readily available to them, it is natural suvivalism (minus the wilderness.)

Sure people will eat anything that's available! I recall that in the North Korean famine, a few years ago, there were stories about people eating rats, boiling tree bark, digging up roots...just trying to eat whatever was available.....but it won't be enough to feed the whole world, and as more forests are burned away and more wildlife devoured as a response to famine; it will only delay the inevitable, not stop it. Many global policy strategists are concerned that famine caused by the shift in climate we are now experiencing, will soon lead to mass migrations and eventually open warfare -- Mass migrations and war: Dire climate scenario

but i do think more fish oriented places of the fast food industry may help kick the curb on red meat consumption. that and chicken but there is too much animal cruelty there as well... in need of minor reform (i signed the peda-2 petition against KFC... i miss fried chicken.)

Where are we going to get all the fish from to replace the beef industry? The price of beef and chicken is going to keep increasong as grain prices go up and water supplies become scarce. But, have you seen the price of fish lately? The fisheries started collapsing years ago.

[Oleg Bach]

Sure people will eat anything that's available! I recall that in the North Korean famine, a few years ago, there were stories about people eating rats, boiling tree bark, digging up roots...just trying to eat whatever was available.....but it won't be enough to feed the whole world, and as more forests are burned away and more wildlife devoured as a response to famine; it will only delay the inevitable, not stop it. Many global policy strategists are concerned that famine caused by the shift in climate we are now experiencing, will soon lead to mass migrations and eventually open warfare -- Mass migrations and war: Dire climate scenario

Where are we going to get all the fish from to replace the beef industry? The price of beef and chicken is going to keep increasong as grain prices go up and water supplies become scarce. But, have you seen the price of fish lately? The fisheries started collapsing years ago.

Walk into a resturant and view 50 people eating 150 pounds of shrimp...then imagine a million such places all over the world and all of them eating 150 million pounds of jumbo shrimp - It is not sustainable - I am amazed that we still have sea food - the lobsters served now are half the size - because they are going for younger and younger creatures seeing that there is a depleation of mature ones.

Yesterday I made a joke out of the idea if we did not eat pigs -cows - chickens and so on that city pigeons would be fighting it out with roosters over where to roost..and millions of cows would be wandering about if we did not kill and eat them ------------Then in the middle of the night I imagined a world where these animals moved about - and ate noxious plants - and they pooped everywhere - the droppings rotted - creating very fertile soil - and eatable plants began to spring up ever where -

I love meat - the oils are tastey and the protein is instant...BUT - when prepared with wonderful sauces and vegetable oils ( say olive) - Vegan eating is delightful but it take work and there must be variety - plus a person with skill and talent has to prepare the food to bring a smile to your face -

--- but it's work and we are lazy so we kill instead...I am not some nutty old hippy --- in truth we would probably be stronger and live twice as long if we did not kill other creatures --- other than the odd fish....sorry fish ----someone has to be sacraficed....please my littel swimmer don't look at me with those sad eyes.

[DarkAngel_]

Walk into a resturant and view 50 people eating 150 pounds of shrimp...then imagine a million such places all over the world and all of them eating 150 million pounds of jumbo shrimp - It is not sustainable - I am amazed that we still have sea food - the lobsters served now are half the size - because they are going for younger and younger creatures seeing that there is a depleation of mature ones.

Yesterday I made a joke out of the idea if we did not eat pigs -cows - chickens and so on that city pigeons would be fighting it out with roosters over where to roost..and millions of cows would be wandering about if we did not kill and eat them ------------Then in the middle of the night I imagined a world where these animals moved about - and ate noxious plants - and they pooped everywhere - the droppings rotted - creating very fertile soil - and eatable plants began to spring up ever where -

I love meat - the oils are tastey and the protein is instant...BUT - when prepared with wonderful sauces and vegetable oils ( say olive) - Vegan eating is delightful but it take work and there must be variety - plus a person with skill and talent has to prepare the food to bring a smile to your face -

--- but it's work and we are lazy so we kill instead...I am not some nutty old hippy --- in truth we would probably be stronger and live twice as long if we did not kill other creatures --- other than the odd fish....sorry fish ----someone has to be sacraficed....please my littel swimmer don't look at me with those sad eyes.

Diversifying the pallet helps very much i agree, but a small increase in other meats would help with our health as well. fish holds allot of healthy fats like omega-3, wines and certain juices with antioxidants, polyphenols, as well as other highly regarded preventive and fortifying minerals would also help reduce heath issues. the more well prepared the food the better, no doubt fast = fat, i noticed my friend from the Philippines whom is a chef often makes the best and healthiest foods (tangerines and duck....mmmmmm) but overall that's why home made meals are recommended, even with money being tight it can be fun to make a good diner with a recipe from experimentation, since it is a science. my common snack is a gala apple but as a fast food eater i've noticed that confusingly an issue comes to mind: it is proven that people eat what is most available plus the other altering factors to list, fast food is more available so people on the go get fast food. i think these companies are cruel yes but then again the idea is good, 'fast food' is helpful. but making it healthful is hard. helping moral issues is important, so keeping a happy farm is needed being a farm boy myself, so the issue stands and sides should stay on there sides in order to keep the fight and let it form to the most efficient form.

[Oleg Bach]

As we continue to eat other life forms other than plants - it is important to note if we are going to have a continuous and healthy food supply - corporate mega farming should be contained...ten thousand chickens sqeezed into an indoor acre of space - never seeing the sun - mutates the birds - a chicken is no longer really a chicken..the bones are soft - the flesh is mussy and the shells of the eggs are paper thin, and the yolk is thin and watery...BUT as these poor birds become biomachines - the next generation that has never seen or tasted a real chicken will accept it as normal- when it is actually an abomination of nature...once the chicken gets to the point that it has no legs - just a fat body and an eating beak..no one will care...I do believe you can not get something for nothing.

To continue to mutilate creatures will not bring good health to those that abuse and eat them. Nature rebels - and with the use of hormones and anti-biotics..we will pay the price with more disease - much like the heavey consumption of beef - during the 50s let to a rise in colon cancer in the 80s..you injest enough dead animal you will rot as the flesh of the animal rots in you. No matter what - the unethical and treatment of animals is not something with out cost that comes in the form of human disease. The best we can do slaughter quickly - so as the animal does not even relize that it has passed from this world - what bothers me ...is that the methods of slaughter have wained and people are slowly becoming dulled to the suffering - NOW if an animal is slaughter and is only half killed no one gives a shit if it hangs in torment - because they are no longer looked at as living thinking creatures - just bio-foodmachines.

What the heck - do it to the animals and it is done to us in the hospitals and old age homes..we get ours in the end also and will suffer.

[DarkAngel_]

As we continue to eat other life forms other than plants - it is important to note if we are going to have a continuous and healthy food supply - corporate mega farming should be contained...ten thousand chickens sqeezed into an indoor acre of space - never seeing the sun - mutates the birds - a chicken is no longer really a chicken..the bones are soft - the flesh is mussy and the shells of the eggs are paper thin, and the yolk is thin and watery...BUT as these poor birds become biomachines - the next generation that has never seen or tasted a real chicken will accept it as normal- when it is actually an abomination of nature...once the chicken gets to the point that it has no legs - just a fat body and an eating beak..no one will care...I do believe you can not get something for nothing.

To continue to mutilate creatures will not bring good health to those that abuse and eat them. Nature rebels - and with the use of hormones and anti-biotics..we will pay the price with more disease - much like the heavey consumption of beef - during the 50s let to a rise in colon cancer in the 80s..you injest enough dead animal you will rot as the flesh of the animal rots in you. No matter what - the unethical and treatment of animals is not something with out cost that comes in the form of human disease. The best we can do slaughter quickly - so as the animal does not even relize that it has passed from this world - what bothers me ...is that the methods of slaughter have wained and people are slowly becoming dulled to the suffering - NOW if an animal is slaughter and is only half killed no one gives a shit if it hangs in torment - because they are no longer looked at as living thinking creatures - just bio-foodmachines.

What the heck - do it to the animals and it is done to us in the hospitals and old age homes..we get ours in the end also and will suffer.

wow this does sound like soilant green. i agree with that statement which is why we used to own chickens, happy chickens=good eggs. i have seen what happens to chickens not allowed to womp around, its disturbing, that's why i am a fan of serj tankians ideals but i am also a fan of the use of natural laws of predatory nature like A: predators are more intelligent due to the need to focus on the hunt. it is why we are protein seekers.

but again you surprise me, your position is valid but very... fickle, what is your position exactly? to sum it up.

[Oleg Bach]

wow this does sound like soilant green. i agree with that statement which is why we used to own chickens, happy chickens=good eggs. i have seen what happens to chickens not allowed to womp around, its disturbing, that's why i am a fan of serj tankians ideals but i am also a fan of the use of natural laws of predatory nature like A: predators are more intelligent due to the need to focus on the hunt. it is why we are protein seekers.

but again you surprise me, your position is valid but very... fickle, what is your position exactly? to sum it up.

As with he bail out of mutated and corrupt corpoations - I say let nature take it's course - and let the chicken at least have a life - also let human breed and enjoy family and the joys of life - Humanity is suffering - so is the animal kingdom - there are so many controls on humans - that the poor humans are so stressed - That they are forgetful that they are stewards to the lower creatures - I think the core of my whole approach is that unhappy and stressed human being - stress out and make the lower creatures unhappy...It's a trickle down effect. If there are to be corporate and governmental preditors of humanity - at least let the prey put up a fair fight and inform them that they are being abused..

. as for animals - let them at least have the life that nature designed for them - It's not just animals - it seems that life itself is under attack - that preditors exist and we are as naive as chickens...how can I put it - a little love and kindness and care for all - humans and animals will make us healthier and happier -------------we have to start being aware - the average person walks down the street in oblivion ---if this is becoming the standard mentality - then the animals under us are in double trouble - it's us..not the chickens that are lost. Sorry my friend I am tired and will give this some clear thought later ...good night.

[DarkAngel_]

a little love and kindness and care for all - humans and animals will make us healthier and happier -------------we have to start being aware - the average person walks down the street in oblivion ---if this is becoming the standard mentality - then the animals under us are in double trouble - it's us..not the chickens that are lost.

i see, this is an easy thing to see but what is hard is the alternating differences, humans that cannot adapt die off via many a stance by nature... i agree about dull predators being 'over cultivated' but i disagree as to the path. man is a bridge, and our actions will be overcome by a surviving few, as with the saying, 'the needs of the few sometimes out-ways the needs of the many.' and many a human being sacrifice themselves and become examples of this corrupt pollutant where the human diminishes. in experience the point i make is things are loosing there naturallity in our eye only because even the most pure amongst us is just a modification of past suffering or poisoning which will always be a contributing factor in the downfall of men, but not in the downfall of humanity in general, our actions have spread gravely yes and if you've read 'operation firestorm' which is a theory of migrational war, then yes it will cause conflict to be too influential without a good outcome, cutting the human presence for being on this earth in half, but things will form the way they must. life is not exclusive, cruelty is not exclusive... only the lasting breathe and words spoken, Platonism is wrong in the assumption of the soul, but more importantly, in the 'regaining' of knowledge, you see as observers relativity claims great right explaining how similar we are to lesser intelligent life, and how close to natural effects we are, look at our actions and tell me it is no 'storm' in result... we are only the makeup of incredible forces, stuff, and energy. if animals change due to us, then the many are to blame but i for one of the few, think im not to blame for such actions... being blind means no time, and to much of a mind, i justify nothing, but if it is not empirically measurable for its worth, then it is a low sort of worth. animals should be treated according to there species, a chicken with thankfulness, cow as well, lion with cation, camel with ladency... and a child with new experiences. we will always be apart of that choice more-so, because we are not plant or animal, we are us and cannot be any other.

and we are not guided....

Edited March 7, 2009 by DarkAngel_

[Oleg Bach]

The needs of a few sometimes out weigh the needs of the many. There is that point of view - and those few we are talking about when in authority will say " The common good (needs of the many) out weigh the needs and wants of a few or the INDIVIDUAL....

In that ancient writings there is the quote "I have not come to save and redeem the whole flock - but have come to save the one lost sheep that has fallen into the pit" What this old doctrine is stating is that ONE individual is important - that ONE individual creature is important as the million within the collective - IF the rights of the ONE are trampled upon the rights of the collective are also lost - "Is the empire of Rome worth the life of one good man?"

Some will say yes..those that are mindlessly pro-collective - But I say when one good Roman citizen is trampled upon then they whole extended empire of Rome is totally devalued and is not worth but one good person..It becomes worthless.

Because now we are becoming utlitarian and more collectively minded - our animals that we once knew personally are also part of a huge collective - and the individual creature (even a chicken) that in a more simple time - we were aware of it's personality - is now like some of us de-humanized and they de-creaturized - it's a forgetful contempt of life it self and an arrogant beasty collective mind that is utter cruelty..

.This collectivisation of humanity and animal - leads to a consciousness that is unconscious..but still moves about in a dangerously cruel manner..as we populate and over populate - the human individual will be ulitized like food - and the lower creatures will just be blobs of genetically engineered suffering that we will consume ---

--THERE HEALTH AND WELL BEING OF THE INDIVIDUAL ANIMAL OR HUMAN MUST COME BEFORE THE COMMON GOOD OR UTLITIARIAN COLLECTIVE - THIS IS THE ONLY SAFE GUARD WE HAVE AGAINST ABUSE AND MISUSE OF LIFE FORMS - THAT WE ARE ONE OF.

[DarkAngel_]

This collectivisation of humanity and animal - leads to a consciousness that is unconscious..but still moves about in a dangerously cruel manner..as we populate and over populate - the human individual will be ulitized like food - and the lower creatures will just be blobs of genetically engineered suffering that we will consume ---

here is a good point, the actions that lessen us also make us more vulnerable. if we act to diminish human value we diminish solitary value, for which animals as ourselves depend on to contribute to the collective life on this planet. i think when the quality of our goods go south we go with the quality, its basic relativity. (and nice quotes they are particularly likable.) always think off into hermitism as well, a lone person can be 'collective' and a bit unaffected, if the issue discussed goes unsolved people will become weak, its true for animals so its true for us no doubt.

the way a thing is, is no doubt against its future prediction, just the state by which its becoming.

[Oleg Bach]

here is a good point, the actions that lessen us also make us more vulnerable. if we act to diminish human value we diminish solitary value, for which animals as ourselves depend on to contribute to the collective life on this planet. i think when the quality of our goods go south we go with the quality, its basic relativity. (and nice quotes they are particularly likable.) always think off into hermitism as well, a lone person can be 'collective' and a bit unaffected, if the issue discussed goes unsolved people will become weak, its true for animals so its true for us no doubt.

the way a thing is, is no doubt against its future prediction, just the state by which its becoming.

I guess it is about respect for life itself. Respect is power - mutual co-operation. What is taking place is that as the collective enlarges it takes on a mind of it's own. For instance just as war started becoming less acceptable - suddenly humanity simply forgets the lesson and re-ignites strife. More and more people are embracing the idea that power is dominance - when in fact power is the granting of power and the vibrational return of it. As human thinking becomes more and more institutionalized though our institutions that freeze in time - time moves on and what was fact back then no longer applys -

also theory is opinion and opinion is not fact - human imagination or speculation is the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge - which is not knowledge but imagination - spectors appear and we react in our speculation based on learned theorys that mean nothing and are not applicable. Put simply - our acedemics are so proud that their thinking is institutionalized and comes to a stand still - real learning is on going for eternity. Because all of our interest is vested in the institutions of higher learning - It's hard to admit that we may be wrong - It's like guarding fools gold - we are stubborn creatures.. I have little respect for acedemics or professional professors of theory....acumulated knowledge may be incorrect and incapable of serving our real needs and solving our problems - and the poor animals and the earth suffer and wither as we stubbornly play god.

[Oleg Bach]

I guess it is about respect for life itself. Respect is power - mutual co-operation. What is taking place is that as the collective enlarges it takes on a mind of it's own. For instance just as war started becoming less acceptable - suddenly humanity simply forgets the lesson and re-ignites strife. More and more people are embracing the idea that power is dominance - when in fact power is the granting of power and the vibrational return of it. As human thinking becomes more and more institutionalized though our institutions that freeze in time - time moves on and what was fact back then no longer applys -

also theory is opinion and opinion is not fact - human imagination or speculation is the sin of eating from the tree of knowledge - which is not knowledge but imagination - spectors appear and we react in our speculation based on learned theorys that mean nothing and are not applicable. Put simply - our acedemics are so proud that their thinking is institutionalized and comes to a stand still - real learning is on going for eternity. Because all of our interest is vested in the institutions of higher learning - It's hard to admit that we may be wrong - It's like guarding fools gold - we are stubborn creatures.. I have little respect for acedemics or professional professors of theory....acumulated knowledge may be incorrect and incapable of serving our real needs and solving our problems - and the poor animals and the earth suffer and wither as we stubbornly play god.

Not wanting to repeat myself - but I will - this will sum it up - My father who had seen the collapse of a civilization - watched a continent turn to ashes - through his experience he said one thing...when dealing with resourses of any kind - these are the most civilzed words that you will ever hear....."THERE ARE OTHERS."

[DarkAngel_]

Not wanting to repeat myself - but I will - this will sum it up - My father who had seen the collapse of a civilization - watched a continent turn to ashes - through his experience he said one thing...when dealing with resourses of any kind - these are the most civilzed words that you will ever hear....."THERE ARE OTHERS."

There are... and in those others is merit of action that moral value does not allow resolution... it is like bad traffic and politics. lobbyist this, corrupt that, with a touch of unmade promise's. not to mention the greed.

things deplete, we move on, but less like a plague is our adaption and recycling of resources that will serve and survive. we will 'adapt' so long as we do not overgrow, and help life prosper in equality as is most 'scientific' goals.

and of other animals? we have been putting effort into helping them, but the fight will always linger, some are stubborn but a majority has developed and intends on protecting the majesty of an ever evolving earth, it will never really die in truth.

and in science the only relevancy is to be proven wrong, to have theory be built into fact from a philosophy and be understood empirically. that's why i fell in love with theoretical physics because physicists are proven wrong daily, stuck on the brink of literally pulling ones eyes out from the intense stress this kind of, 'writers block' can cause. i have great faith in those great thinkers.

it is a proof man has more then desire to power, we will it to be! as do animals and it cannot be forcibly removed as a trait... but then again power comes with maintenance... then it becomes leadership, it then comes with responsibility beyond excuses to keep letting the other forms of life down. people are just becoming aware of it more then any other generation, and for that we have created something greater of ourselves for the future generations to act upon. the question is, will they take the same measures further when they are elected, will they vote for energy smarts? preservation of animal rights? and the maintaining of liberty by the peoples...?

there's a good chance.

if we have the power to be rise beyond defunctory, then we will, if not; then power will overcome power.