Native Sentencing Circle ....whites hate it!

Oleg Bach · February 17, 2009

Listening to the local talk radio clowns this morning - that husband and wife team...they were dramatically livid by the news that the Native elders decided that the drunken father that let his two infants freeze in the snow should not be incarcerated...that he suffered enough.

The talk show twippets were insisting punitive measures for this father...that "two sweet little girls in diapers died" and that this horrible drunkard should be punished properly for the neglectful misdeed by being put in a steel cell with bars for at least ten years. It made me wonder what motivated the hate mongering by these radio hosts? Where they not aware that it was money from alcohol profits that probably bought that microphone originally and that building they were broadcasting from?

S0 --- I ponder a bit and say to myself better give them a call. I was short and conscise, regarding their lust for vengence against this poor stupid drunken native......eg....."What is it to you?" In other words, how does the punishment of a man concern you? How does it effect you? Do you REALLY care about the death of the infants or do you hold all natives in loathing and contempt? Which in my estimation they did! They hid their true motivations under a blanket of careing for the dead children...They did not care for them alive - so why care for them when they are dead - The caring was belated and hypocritical.

After my input with "What's it to you?" - The female host did the obsence in order to hide the obvious insincerty ---- she immediately reversed the positions in a very crafty manner and in effect altered my statement to be -------What's it to ME...Then she said to para phrase...."what kind of society do we have now? This caller stated that it was nothing to him that children were dead and he did not care.....THAT WAS NOT WHAT I WAS COMMUNICATING. I stated that it was none of their buisness - It was the buisness of the native individual and that community.... I asked the hosts of the radio show a plain and simple question ---"What is this to you? It seems they knew it was nothing to them and they were just common interloping media types who would say anything for a pay cheque to bring about some drama...

My conclution is in regards to hypocrites for hire is that - they do not know they are hypocrites and you can not help a person that is sick who believes they are well ------ I will not bother with this type again - they took my words and twisted them and empowered their lazy pandering evil at my expenses. The part that these moderators have down pat is that they know that the average listener is stupified...but the plus for me was that if at least one person caught the drift - the call was successful. The natives suffer enough - to jail one for accidentally killing his own children while crazed on white mans poison is not ethical.

noahbody · February 18, 2009

The natives suffer enough - to jail one for accidentally killing his own children while crazed on white mans poison is not ethical.

So basically protecting the lives of native children isn't important to you and it would have been unethical to find O.J. guilty because blacks have suffered.

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

So basically protecting the lives of native children isn't important to you and it would have been unethical to find O.J. guilty because blacks have suffered.

Where do you people come from - does someone hire you to go about being masters of convolution? Firstly - you hypocrites do nothing to protect other peoples children - especially native ones - should I mention residential schools - or bad water - or the shifting of the James Bay tribes to a flood plain from good high livable ground? The point I was making and you failed to grasp it because ---- I really don't know why...was - These people who go on and on about the protection of native children and children in general have no concern of a live child - because you may have to contribute some of your wealth to a living breathing eating young human - They showed great concern for a dead child - which was easy - you do not have to feed finance or care for a dead one.

The OJ - thing is a non-starter - we realize why there was no conviction - Whites in L A were more concerned about rioting and property loss if there was a conviction - so they let the bastard go because property is more important than cutting the head off a woman and slitting the throat of an innocent bystander.

This young drunken native father loved his infant children like all fathers do - he drank and blacked out and lost them ---but white elitists would like to imprison or execute every drunken sluring Indian that they have had to witness walking THEIR city streets...so it's not about the kids - it's about hate and spite and contempt for what they do not understand - that natives are in truth - prisoners of a war they lost - intergenerational prisoners - some take to captivity other do not - they get drunk - and what you are really saying is kill or jail the ones you find distrubing to look at!

Muddy · February 18, 2009

I would be into flogging any man who drank themselves into a drunken stupor while minding his babys. So whats that make me? I don`t care that the guy was an Indian. What I do care about is that equal justice be done no matter race or colour.

DogOnPorch · February 18, 2009

Native Sentencing Circle ....whites hate it!, The drunken father still awaits the white god to speak.

'Whites' hate it because this is supposed to be Canada where we are supposed to be equal in front of the law. Yet, since I was a kid, crap like this and race-based laws protecting 'minorities' from the evil white man have become ever so common. Last I counted there were billions of some so-called 'minorities' on this planet.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Itsafakea.

Edited February 18, 2009 by DogOnPorch

kimmy · February 18, 2009

do you hold all natives in loathing and contempt?

Perhaps they only hold contempt for natives who kill their children through careless neglect.

It is ridiculous to chalk this up to racism: if a couple of white babies had been killed by sheer drunken idiocy, the drunken idiot responsible would be crucified. Perhaps the people who are willing to shrug and say "he has suffered enough" are the real racists: are native babies lives worth so little?

You're right about one thing, Oleg: people seem to care a lot more about these little girls dead than they did when they were alive. This drunk can't have been much of a parent... how did he have care of these children in the first place?

-k

charter.rights · February 18, 2009

Justice.

According to the Supreme Court of Canada, alternative justice systems and sentencing circles are encouraged with natives for some crimes. So the outcome - whatever it turns out to be - is well within Canadian law, and is a just way of dealing with the offender.

Here is a situation where incarceration is unlikely to have any effect. However the shame of facing a sentencing circle in one's own community is considered by psychologists to be more stigmatizing than any jail sentence would ever achieve. The benefit is that after the sentence is completed the chances are not only will the offender be a better person but by engaging the community, it benefits as well.

It is easy to criticize a system you don't understand because well, ignorance has no foes. The point is that Pauchay is not "getting off", or going easy. It is likely that the final sentence if approved by the court, will be equal to the negligent act. That is why the judge has the final say.

However, I do understand the where the anger comes from. No one really cares about the children, or the outcome. They see it as a heinous crime and want revenge, believing that justice means that they get a say in meting out that revenge. I say get over it. It is out of your control. Had you cared about the children in the first place, of the community and living conditions they exist in, chances are this never would have happened. It is indeed unfortunate but some of the suggestions for revenge are just way out of line. Justice will be served, whether you agree with it or not. And since most of you don't really know all the facts of the case other than what was sensationalized in the media, none of you are in a position to judge.

Smallc · February 18, 2009

Justice.

Justice should be blind....to colour....and culture. This is one problem that really does need fixing.

myata · February 18, 2009

It comes from the perception that everybody should be, no has to be like us. Native people like us; Afghanistan like us; Iraq like us; Russia like us; Moon like us; Mars like us and so on. The only way others are allowed to be different, is if they are, in our own view, even better than us. And because nobody, in our own view, is better than us, nobody should be allowed to be different. Simple. Period.

Wherever one is on this poor planet, they should be able to walk a block at most to a MacDonald, grab their favourite BigMac while communicating the transaction in English.

The problem is not what happened, happens or will happen to poor children, but rather what could (and then, should) be done about it. In the long run. Because we aren't gods and can't foresee the results of our best intended acts (such as e.g. residential schools), the best strategy, and also the one that's been taught to us since times immemorial would that, simple, "love the other", "respect the other" and "don't judge". But our hands (i.e moral judgements) are so itchy and we know so very well exactly what needs to be done.

Smallc · February 18, 2009

It comes from the perception that everybody should be, no has to be like us.

No, it comes from the idea that everyone should have to go through the same system when they do wrong.

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

No, it comes from the idea that everyone should have to go through the same system when they do wrong.

There is a problem with that proposition. Our system sometimes does not make sense. It should be an non-advesarial system - to be truely civilized. But it is not! It shoud be a correctional system - but its success rate at correcting poor behaviour is dismal. It is a punitive system and extortive to a great degree if you know what I mean? It is a system geared to maintain power and control over a population by a few people who oversee the system. It is in fact a very unfair and Draconian affair to enter into the courts...As one lawyer said to me as we smoked outside a local court house - "The system is not civilized and is coated in a veneer of civility."

Our society in general is mean spirited - and they have no problem supporting the wicked and persecuting the less fortunate - much like a dog is happy as long as the other dogs are biting other dogs and not them. This native father has paid the ultimate price and the greatest punitive and correctional methods known to mankind have already occured. The sentencing circle took a very practical and logical approach - The man has punished himself through his own decision to become oblivious via the use of a toxin.

It seems to me that white society simply want to show the savages who is boss - It's not so much about going though the same sytem when they do wrong. It is more about the attitude of how dare those inferiour drunken natives challange us the masters. It is white pride and arrogance and hate that drives the idea on of putting this man in a box for ten years - which will not correct - will not punish - nor will it bring back the dead....whites have a naturally sadistic nature - especially the cold stiff upper lipped anglo - this inherent genetic disposition to cruelty is what made the British empire great! :rolleyes:

charter.rights · February 18, 2009

Justice should be blind....to colour....and culture. This is one problem that really does need fixing.

"Should be...." but it isn't. Natives are over represented in our prisons because courts have traditionally gone harder on minor offense natives than say white collar criminals. Plus poverty and social conditioning make them easy targets for Crown attorneys and judges who want to set an example of them. Lastly there are different principles involved in culture that make it impossible for our courts to treat some crimes on a equal footing.

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

"Should be...." but it isn't. Natives are over represented in our prisons because courts have traditionally gone harder on minor offense natives than say white collar criminals. Plus poverty and social conditioning make them easy targets for Crown attorneys and judges who want to set an example of them. Lastly there are different principles involved in culture that make it impossible for our courts to treat some crimes on a equal footing.

Gain the trust of the average up and coming young and ambitious crown attorney and some will confide in you and say ------ "I must convict the innocent if I can - it's policy....and besides the more convictional brownie points I have the better my chances to become a senior crown...and then maybe a judge - It's about the numbers. There are also incidents that take place regarding how much money you pump into the judical system...how much you stimulate the economy of the legalist class...You could be the best representive with out a lawyer - and you will be punished because the deal is you must pay one of theirs...Natives really have no clout....and even those that indirectly bribe the courts are double crossed out of spite or for political reasons.

Look at the average young Jamacian crack dealer with a gun - He can take the proceeds of dope dealing and hand them over to a well connected unscupulous lawyer and walk -------------thirty years ago I personally saw - a black drug dealer get propostioned by the crown who stated - "you donate 5000 to this charity and you walk" - he walked. You have to pay into their system - and natives with legal aid are really not profitible.

Drea · February 18, 2009

"Should be...." but it isn't. Natives are over represented in our prisons because courts have traditionally gone harder on minor offense natives than say white collar criminals. Plus poverty and social conditioning make them easy targets for Crown attorneys and judges who want to set an example of them. Lastly there are different principles involved in culture that make it impossible for our courts to treat some crimes on a equal footing.

so if a white guy had negleted his children and they died... it's okay that he goes to prison, but not okay for the native?

He KILLED his children due to HIS own NEGLIGENCE! It is HIS fault they are dead. He should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

People want to give him hugs and kisses and a "hot sweat" and say he'll be "all better". Pfft. Those children will never be "all better"...

Throw the loser in prison. Let him have nothing to do but think of his henious crime for the rest of his life.

Smallc · February 18, 2009

"Should be...." but it isn't. Natives are over represented in our prisons

That doesn't mean that its the systems fault.

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

so if a white guy had negleted his children and they died... it's okay that he goes to prison, but not okay for the native?
He KILLED his children due to HIS own NEGLIGENCE! It is HIS fault they are dead. He should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

People want to give him hugs and kisses and a "hot sweat" and say he'll be "all better". Pfft. Those children will never be "all better"...

Throw the loser in prison. Let him have nothing to do but think of his henious crime for the rest of his life.

To have weight to your words you would have to actually care about the victims during the time they were alive...I really have NEVER seen signs of true care and love for native children by the average white person. The only person on earth that loves a child fully and naturally are the bioligical parents....I assume that in his drunken state he believed that he was actually taking care of his infants when he decided to travel with them..his senses and judgement was impaired.. -

The man was dellusional due to being poisoned by alcohol ---- we hate drunks because they are ugly....say he was white and eating anti-depressants and popping ativan ...and left the kettle on the stove --- then forgetting and burning the house down along with his kids...? The matter would be totally different - This case most definately generates loathing for the alcholic - and spews forth racism from elitists..

The public will tolerate a person medicated out of their mind with soul desloving Prozac -synthetic morphine - Ritalin (kiddy cocaine) --- because it is more estetically pleasing than the drooling staggering drunk - who medicates himself with a less sophisticated product.

charter.rights · February 18, 2009

so if a white guy had negleted his children and they died... it's okay that he goes to prison, but not okay for the native?
He KILLED his children due to HIS own NEGLIGENCE! It is HIS fault they are dead. He should be charged with manslaughter at the very least.

People want to give him hugs and kisses and a "hot sweat" and say he'll be "all better". Pfft. Those children will never be "all better"...

Throw the loser in prison. Let him have nothing to do but think of his henious crime for the rest of his life.

Prison doesn't work as a deterrent or as a punishment, regardless of race. The guy didn't murder his children. His negligence (which is a different concept under the law) caused their death. And you just proved how ignorance often prevails in this sort of thing.....

Again, you believe that a sentencing circling is light stuff. It isn't and is often a more difficult process than 6-10 years in prison.

guyser · February 18, 2009

Gain the trust of the average up and coming young and ambitious crown attorney and some will confide in you and say ------ "I must convict the innocent if I can - it's policy....

Show us or shut the F up you delusional pita

charter.rights · February 18, 2009

That doesn't mean that its the systems fault.

Actually it is the system's fault...or rather the people in the system that are to blame. In the justice system, as well as the law enforcement system racism has been institutionalized.

see. the recent case were aboriginal people were beaten into unconsciousness at St Michaels in Toronto....or the Saskatchewan police officers that left a native in sub-zero temperatures on the outskirts of town without a coat or shoes to die....or Dudley George and the Ipperwash hearings that found that the OPP was rampant with racism and bias against natives. The Supreme Court has recognized that native people are treated differently under our justice system and so there needs to be an extra effort to "reconcile" their cultural differences with our legal system.

charter.rights · February 18, 2009

To have weight to your words you would have to actually care about the victims during the time they were alive...I really have NEVER seen signs of true care and love for native children by the average white person. The only person on earth that loves a child fully and naturally are the bioligical parents....I assume that in his drunken state he believed that he was actually taking care of his infants when he decided to travel with them..his senses and judgement was impaired.. -
The man was dellusional due to being poisoned by alcohol ---- we hate drunks because they are ugly....say he was white and eating anti-depressants and popping ativan ...and left the kettle on the stove --- then forgetting and burning the house down along with his kids...? The matter would be totally different - This case most definately generates loathing for the alcholic - and spews forth racism from elitists..

The public will tolerate a person medicated out of their mind with soul desloving Prozac -synthetic morphine - Ritalin (kiddy cocaine) --- because it is more estetically pleasing than the drooling staggering drunk - who medicates himself with a less sophisticated product.

Hell...corporate Canada embraces the cocaine snorting executives that fit in or those that get drunk at company parties. It truly is a double standard where the mainstream authorize and excuse their hate towards those they don't know and blame them for all the ills of society. No one cares for children of drunks, gamblers or addicts that leave their children cold and hungry. This isn;t a race issue it is an ignorance issue.

Smallc · February 18, 2009

In the justice system, as well as the law enforcement system racism has been institutionalized.

I'm sorry, but I see what police have to deal with on reserves. I can see exactly why things are the way they are. Now, we should fix the situation on reserves, but that situation isn't the fault of the police.

Drea · February 18, 2009

Prison doesn't work as a deterrent or as a punishment, regardless of race. The guy didn't murder his children. His negligence (which is a different concept under the law) caused their death. And you just proved how ignorance often prevails in this sort of thing.....
Again, you believe that a sentencing circling is light stuff. It isn't and is often a more difficult process than 6-10 years in prison.

Yah sure :rolleyes:

I've known people who have been in the sentencing "circle". It is not a punishment nor a deterrent.

Looking into yourself... is that punishment these days? Delving into your past to find out why you turned out to be such a shitty person... is that punishment these days? Pffft. Cirle PLUS five/ten years maybe. Heck he can "circle" all day every day -- in prison.

We need to quit coddling ALL criminals. Including those whose ignorant actions cause death. If he were driving vehicle and killed his two kids, he would be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

He gets a pass because he had no control over his drinking? Pffft.

Oleg Bach · February 18, 2009

Yah sure
I've known people who have been in the sentencing "circle". It is not a punishment nor a deterrent.

Looking into yourself... is that punishment these days? Delving into your past to find out why you turned out to be such a shitty person... is that punishment these days? Pffft. Cirle PLUS five/ten years maybe. Heck he can "circle" all day every day -- in prison.

We need to quit coddling ALL criminals. Including those whose ignorant actions cause death. If he were driving vehicle and killed his two kids, he would be charged with vehicular manslaughter.

He gets a pass because he had no control over his drinking? Pffft.

If we lived in a totally free society where the individual had total power over his own being and the spring offers - or his off sping....If a person was not part of this enforced collective called society - then he or she should be able if they so desire to put their kids in a burlap bag and toss the whole thing into an icey torrent of a river...and it should be no bodies buisness - but infantracide is a lot like suicide...

You are murdering yourself or part of yourself or what has sprung from you and no one else. It's ironic that abortion and capital punishment - and waging war for profit - genocide are just fine in todays modernity - but you can't off your own kids that belong to you - come from YOUR body and are YOUR property ---- that was just a analogal exercise - The reason that we are punished for killing even our selves or shall I say attempting to is that it is all based in ancient property law ---

AND WE ARE STILL PROPERTY OF A CERTAIN ELITE GROUP...so what they are saying about the death of two infant natives is this ----- These two young calves were OUR property and may have enriched us in the future - how dare you steal from us? That's the real bottom line - It's not about caring or loving chidren - If the powers that be loved native children we would see more well being amoungst this group - so far no evidence of good will ------------------I REST MY CASE....or is that face? :lol:

Melanie_ · February 19, 2009

Oleg, I see your point here...

Do you REALLY care about the death of the infants or do you hold all natives in loathing and contempt? Which in my estimation they did! They hid their true motivations under a blanket of careing for the dead children...They did not care for them alive - so why care for them when they are dead - The caring was belated and hypocritical.

Radio talk show hosts are generally just looking for something to stir people up with. They don't really give a hoot about these two little girls, Cadence and Santana Pauchey. Discussing this on their show just gives them a hot button topic, and likely creates an opportunity for racists to call in and cloak their racism in self righteous indignation.

What is an appropriate response to this? I've argued here, regarding a different case, that even though a parent didn't intentionally harm the child, the child is dead. Whether the parent lost control and killed the baby out of frustration, or whether the parent was too intoxicated to adequately protect the child, these children died. Children are vulnerable, and when we excuse parents' lapse of judgment, we are saying that those children's lives were expendable. Part of it is the fact that any one of us fears that it could be us who has the lapse of judgment, and hopes that others will understand. But in the end, I support sending a strong message to parents that they are accountable for their actions towards their kids, even when they are frustrated, even when they are drunk.

Oleg Bach · February 19, 2009

Oleg, I see your point here...
Radio talk show hosts are generally just looking for something to stir people up with. They don't really give a hoot about these two little girls, Cadence and Santana Pauchey. Discussing this on their show just gives them a hot button topic, and likely creates an opportunity for racists to call in and cloak their racism in self righteous indignation.

What is an appropriate response to this? I've argued here, regarding a different case, that even though a parent didn't intentionally harm the child, the child is dead. Whether the parent lost control and killed the baby out of frustration, or whether the parent was too intoxicated to adequately protect the child, these children died. Children are vulnerable, and when we excuse parents' lapse of judgment, we are saying that those children's lives were expendable. Part of it is the fact that any one of us fears that it could be us who has the lapse of judgment, and hopes that others will understand. But in the end, I support sending a strong message to parents that they are accountable for their actions towards their kids, even when they are frustrated, even when they are drunk.

If you look at the latin term patre or pappa - it does not mean slavish provider in a consumerist society with a limitless appitite for more and more stuff.. The term literally means PROTECTOR...That is a fathers true purpose...He failed to protect his children because he could not even protect himself. He was a totally vulnerable human being who had given up his human dignity and was open to all sorts of abuse - of himself and of those supposedly his wards.

Sending a strong message to the native community might be - stand tall and be men...the same goes to the black community - be men! and so on....but in this world of matriarchal and patriarchal oppression it is almost illegal to stand up and be MEN AND WOMAN.