Oleg Bach Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 But I'm not really sure that is compatible with the principles of justice. I suppose many things that we do really aren't though. I've already said that I think there must be a reason they allow them, I just don't completely agree with them. Show me some justice now a days that has principles and I am all for it. We may just have to re-define the re-definement of the term...when I hear the haunting phrase from a lawyer that says..."It may be immoral but it is legal" - still to this day causes me distress.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Okay - you win - give the guy six months and a course on anger management - a parenting class ( better late than never) - and some treatment for alcohol and put him on what used to be common in the 50s ---- It was called the "Indian list" - I heard my dad mention that about a local violent drunk....."You know they have Joe on the Indian list - Frank had to go in and buy his Voldka for him" Joe was not native...maybe we should have a new version of this - called - If you can't hold your booze and you get caught drinking - we make sure you don't drink - give them a mandatory 2 years for the liver to heal. So you must be an oldtimer with a warped backward mentality? In a few years, the world will be a better place to be in when the likes of you are "...." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 So you must be an oldtimer with a warped backward mentality? In a few years, the world will be a better place to be in when the likes of you are "...." I was talking about my dad's experence - I am very strong and vital - and plan to out live you - sorry - that's just the way it is ---- so how can the world be a better place when I am gone? What do you contribute? Also you must understand that I am not presenting these stories as my beliefs and values - I am just an observor reporting from the past and sometimes the future - and realize my friend that any one who wishes a good man gone always goes first - it's natural cosmic law... In a few years my life will be what it should have been and I will be happy and healthy and you - well that's up to you...nothing worse than a twister of the truth - I have done nothing wrong - and for you to insinuate that and wish me dead means it is you that is wrong...good luck buddy - and try to discriminate the difference between good and bad...It may bring about wisdom and a long life...You have to stand for something.....but that takes courage - wish you the best - now shhhhhhhooooo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 I was talking about my dad's experence - I am very strong and vital - and plan to out live you - sorry - that's just the way it is ---- so how can the world be a better place when I am gone? What do you contribute? Also you must understand that I am not presenting these stories as my beliefs and values - I am just an observor reporting from the past and sometimes the future - and realize my friend that any one who wishes a good man gone always goes first - it's natural cosmic law... In a few years my life will be what it should have been and I will be happy and healthy and you - well that's up to you...nothing worse than a twister of the truth - I have done nothing wrong - and for you to insinuate that and wish me dead means it is you that is wrong...good luck buddy - and try to discriminate the difference between good and bad...It may bring about wisdom and a long life...You have to stand for something.....but that takes courage - wish you the best - now shhhhhhhooooo! Someone needs to tell the likes of you that you have a warped mentality and I did. There was this twisted old fart that use to be the editor for the Prince George Citizen Newspaper. Once the paper stopped publishing his crap, or, he retired, the paper was better off...get the point--it's your twisted mentality and attitude that's the problem--yours and countless others in this so-called society of grown-ups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 But I'm not really sure that is compatible with the principles of justice. I suppose many things that we do really aren't though. I've already said that I think there must be a reason they allow them, I just don't completely agree with them. Plea bargins don;t fall within the principles of justice. They are a blatant method of reducing court (and Crown attorney) workloads. They don't expedite sentences or benefit the public from having a fair trial. However, they are a reality in our system. They do produce failures and let criminals go free. Sentencing circles are in every aspect the epitome of what justice is supposed to be since they offer the victim, the community and the families of the victim and offender a say in what happens as a result. The unique thing about these kinds of processes is that there is no intimidation and the offender fully owns up to the crime and the circumstances that led up to it. Once this happens and once the initial anger dissipates into compassion and understanding judgment becomes a moral and intellectual process. I have seen these types of phenomena occur in mainstream groups under Community Justice Forums. And after the agreed upon restoration has been completed the offender is welcomed back after "serving his time" so to speak. With a success rate that is better than 80% why would any one criticize what works?.....Realizing of course that CJFs and sentencing circles are not appropriate for all crimes, or where the offender is reluctant to confront his demons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CANADIEN Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 But I'm not really sure that is compatible with the principles of justice. I suppose many things that we do really aren't though. I've already said that I think there must be a reason they allow them, I just don't completely agree with them. The sentencing circles were, if I remember well a link by someone else, first recommend by white judges who felt that they knew little about the First Nations communities they had to deal with, and wanted a way to get the community involved. As an advisory mechanism, and for dealing with minor crimes, I think this is a model worth expanding beyond First Nation communities. Having the culprit sit in front members of his/her own community and have them tell him/hher what type of punishment or comoensation should be handed can, when it's well done, have a deeper impact than a decision rendered by a judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muddy Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 The natural reserve system is abslolutely racist - To set up a reserve to preserve natural inhabitants is to set up a ZOO -- Natives are different genetically...and culturally - They are an unchanged ancient group from another time...If not oppressed they walk with nobilty and grace. What I have noticed - and it goes for all sorts of decendants from all tribes including Anglo Saxons...Is that some from certain familiar lineage - take well to captivity (society) and sort of thrive - while others are resistant to authority and slowly perish. Natives are prisonsers of war - and are still treated as such - some prisoners adapt and others do not and die. This phenomena is not reserved only to take place in native genetic culture - it takes place in all races and cultures. The dominant familiar lineages who we call establishement have an agenda - Our family first and all others can perish'. Natives will never be excepted as fully human by the elites - nor will the blacks..nor will I the germanic slav...and I am as white as you get. There are more Native Indians in Canada today than there were before the white man came on the scene. Why you ask? Because the Native infant mortality was horrendous. Even worse than the white man after he settled here. The Native was not in harmony with nature . He was ruled by nature. I personally think that our native people are as smart as any other race and can accomplish anything they wish to do. It is the aparthied system that keeps them down . Enough money has gone to the chiefs with out accountability that no one on a reserve should be living in squalor . But they are. Why? Living on a reserve in a modern world where there is no work will only perpetuate more drug and booze problems because of a lack of change. What you have today will be what you have tomorrow and the next generation. People are not noble because of race. They are noble if they choose to be and that is by deed and moral determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 There are more Native Indians in Canada today than there were before the white man came on the scene. Why you ask? Because the Native infant mortality was horrendous. Even worse than the white man after he settled here. The Native was not in harmony with nature . He was ruled by nature. I personally think that our native people are as smart as any other race and can accomplish anything they wish to do. It is the aparthied system that keeps them down . Enough money has gone to the chiefs with out accountability that no one on a reserve should be living in squalor . But they are. Why? Living on a reserve in a modern world where there is no work will only perpetuate more drug and booze problems because of a lack of change. What you have today will be what you have tomorrow and the next generation. People are not noble because of race. They are noble if they choose to be and that is by deed and moral determination. First you must have that will to do it and the deed to prove it has been done. Then a noble mind will set itself up to be generous to those less fortunate or gifted. No one lives in harmony with nature..nature is all powerful and rarely shows mercey. I was not insinuating that natives are less intelligent..but that their disposition was simply odd to me - different. I still don't understand it and in some ways the native is like alien...ten thousand years of tradition does create a certain kind of mind...and face.... You mention that the population has grown - nice... We have been taught by the John Wayne hollywood interpretation of natives as there being a few thousand here and there and the white man shoved them aside and killed a few --- I have heard that prior to our arrival there were over 75 million natives on the continent..that is a nation - with a monetary system, a religion and a history...and now they are almost gone other than a few nobles and the cast aways drinking mouth wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 First you must have that will to do it and the deed to prove it has been done. Then a noble mind will set itself up to be generous to those less fortunate or gifted. No one lives in harmony with nature..nature is all powerful and rarely shows mercey. I was not insinuating that natives are less intelligent..but that their disposition was simply odd to me - different. I still don't understand it and in some ways the native is like alien...ten thousand years of tradition does create a certain kind of mind...and face.... You mention that the population has grown - nice... We have been taught by the John Wayne hollywood interpretation of natives as there being a few thousand here and there and the white man shoved them aside and killed a few --- I have heard that prior to our arrival there were over 75 million natives on the continent..that is a nation - with a monetary system, a religion and a history...and now they are almost gone other than a few nobles and the cast aways drinking mouth wash. Oleg, You maybe old but you'll never grow up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stignasty Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Reading through this thread reminds me of another story from a few years ago. See if it rings any bells: EDMONTON, Alberta ÂÂ A toddler found nearly frozen to death after she wandered outside on a bitter winter night appears to have survived the ordeal without brain damage, her doctor said Sunday. The 13-month-old, clad only in a diaper, wandered from the home where she had been sleeping Friday night with her mother and two-year-old sister, and was found outside at 3 a.m. Saturday. No one knows how long the girl was outside in the subzero weather. The child's toes were frozen together and paramedics who responded to her mother's frantic call had trouble getting a breathing tube into the child's throat because her mouth was frozen shut. Her heart stopped beating for some time, doctors said, and her body temperature was 60.8 degrees when she was found. I don't remember the uproar of outraged voices when mom (who was negligent enough to let her 1 year old in a diaper wander out the door) wasn't subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as Christopher Pauchay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Reading through this thread reminds me of another story from a few years ago. See if it rings any bells:EDMONTON, Alberta ÂÂ A toddler found nearly frozen to death after she wandered outside on a bitter winter night appears to have survived the ordeal without brain damage, her doctor said Sunday. The 13-month-old, clad only in a diaper, wandered from the home where she had been sleeping Friday night with her mother and two-year-old sister, and was found outside at 3 a.m. Saturday. No one knows how long the girl was outside in the subzero weather. The child's toes were frozen together and paramedics who responded to her mother's frantic call had trouble getting a breathing tube into the child's throat because her mouth was frozen shut. Her heart stopped beating for some time, doctors said, and her body temperature was 60.8 degrees when she was found. I don't remember the uproar of outraged voices when mom (who was negligent enough to let her 1 year old in a diaper wander out the door) wasn't subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as Christopher Pauchay. Was it because she wasn't native? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Implant Antibuse in the arms of all natives - put them on Prozac - Ativan --- put all their squirmmy kids on Ritlin and enforce divorce so the men live seperate from the wives and children..give the mummy a new washer and dryer....and explain that you are liberating her and that she is abused and that all men are angry and bad and do not need fathers - that the state will re-Ingine eeer the culture .....that should solve the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Implant Antibuse in the arms of all natives - put them on Prozac - Ativan --- put all their squirmmy kids on Ritlin and enforce divorce so the men live seperate from the wives and children..give the mummy a new washer and dryer....and explain that you are liberating her and that she is abused and that all men are angry and bad and do not need fathers - that the state will re-Ingine eeer the culture .....that should solve the problem. You maybe old but you'll never grow-up there Oleg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Implant Antibuse in the arms of all natives - put them on Prozac - Ativan --- put all their squirmmy kids on Ritlin and enforce divorce so the men live seperate from the wives and children..give the mummy a new washer and dryer....and explain that you are liberating her and that she is abused and that all men are angry and bad and do not need fathers - that the state will re-Ingine eeer the culture .....that should solve the problem. Is it as bad as you telling your kids and grand kids that they're going to grow up to be just like Scott Peterson? Wipe out the wife n kids for money hhmmmhhh--have you ever heard of natives wiping out the wife and kids for money just like your phony-type would? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noahbody Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 I don't remember the uproar of outraged voices when mom (who was negligent enough to let her 1 year old in a diaper wander out the door) wasn't subjected to the same kind of scrutiny as Christopher Pauchay. Likely because she wandered out in the middle of the night when she was supposed to be sleeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Whenever I read some of these I wonder if some of you have anything better to do? In this thread, Charter, Myata, and Melanie seem to know what they are talking about--the rest of you are outright dumb when it comes to aboriginal issues. I ask you, when was the last time you heard an "idiot right-wing politician" say "one law for all?" If any of you had a clue and the meaning of precedence then maybe you may at least sound like you know what you're talking about. The justice system has always been a farce especially when it come to aboriginal people. IN RL you wouldn't give a hoot about those children and now that you have a chance you pounce on an issue. The radio talk people are idiots too--grow up and get a life and quit harpin on the indians because you all sound like fools. WHo wants to bet that the cop in Vancouver will get off with that beating of the delivery man in January? That's the justice system--one great big farce Lemme see if I understand your argument. A drunk is responsible for the deaths of his children. However, some OTHER GUYS have a poor respect for justice so he should get off lightly? Even more so, because a cop in Vancouver beat some delivery guy up? Unless you meant something completely different I guess you're saying that no one should make any attempt at enforcing the rule of law at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stignasty Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Likely because she wandered out in the middle of the night when she was supposed to be sleeping. ... at 13 months of age. In the case of three year old Levi Prairie Chicken, who was allowed to wander out of the house and was struck and killed by a car the parent was charged with negligence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griz Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Lemme see if I understand your argument. A drunk is responsible for the deaths of his children. However, some OTHER GUYS have a poor respect for justice so he should get off lightly? Even more so, because a cop in Vancouver beat some delivery guy up?Unless you meant something completely different I guess you're saying that no one should make any attempt at enforcing the rule of law at all... Go have some more vodka with Oleg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Is it as bad as you telling your kids and grand kids that they're going to grow up to be just like Scott Peterson? Wipe out the wife n kids for money hhmmmhhh--have you ever heard of natives wiping out the wife and kids for money just like your phony-type would? Why the hate and anger in all your posts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Lemme see if I understand your argument. A drunk is responsible for the deaths of his children. However, some OTHER GUYS have a poor respect for justice so he should get off lightly? Even more so, because a cop in Vancouver beat some delivery guy up?Unless you meant something completely different I guess you're saying that no one should make any attempt at enforcing the rule of law at all... Thanks for the narrow minded-perspective. First of all the perpetrator is not "a drunk". He is a human being with a disease that uses alcohol as his vice. Second, "some OTHER GUYS" (I'm assuming you mean the the Elders) don't have a poor respect for justice. If they did they would not be engaged in a court-sanctioned sentencing circle. Their determination is substituted for the judge's. If they see there is someway for the offender to get the treatment he needs, and they realize that jail time neither protects society, nor rehabilitates the offender, nor serves as a deterrent in these types of cases then it is their prerogative to prescribe punishment in the way they see fit. If the judge concurs then justice has been served. Lastly, this procedure stemming from charges against Christopher Pauchay is based on the "rule of law". Unfortunately, your ignorance of the law is no excuse. Take your violent thinking to some country less civilized and see if you fit in. You certainly don't fit in a civil society like Canada. Edited February 22, 2009 by charter.rights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MontyBurns Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 If they see there is someway for the offender to get the treatment he needs, and they realize that jail time neither protects society, nor rehabilitates the offender, nor serves as a deterrent in these types of cases ... Maybe we should let Robert Pickton and Paul Bernardo get the treatment they need so they can be rehabilitated and re-integrated into society. Jail time is not protecting Canadians from these two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charter.rights Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Maybe we should let Robert Pickton and Paul Bernardo get the treatment they need so they can be rehabilitated and re-integrated into society. Jail time is not protecting Canadians from these two. Not the same thing. The protection of the public and the deterrent for committing other crimes is well served by a lengthy prison sentence for these two. In the case of Christopher Pauchay it does not. It seems that the most brutal expectations come from those with the least interest in the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Not the same thing. The protection of the public and the deterrent for committing other crimes is well served by a lengthy prison sentence for these two. In the case of Christopher Pauchay it does not.It seems that the most brutal expectations come from those with the least interest in the case. Prision sentences used to have correctional effect. The code of ethics amongst prisoners was high 30 years ago and now the inside is much like the outside. There is an old street term that has been preverted within the street and prison population -----"GOOF" _ Originally it meant a liar and a disloyal coward...So there was a class of prisoner that maintained honour ....and those that were not were refered to as GOOFS...What has taken place is that the GOOFS decided to defer the tainted label down the food chain to attempt to bring about a false honour and respect --- now if you use the term GOOF - it means pediphile ---- what used to be called a "diddler" So in other words the whole prison population are now all dishonourable and most other than the old schoolers are all GOOF - so there is no hope of correction in a place where you do no longer have mentors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngel_ Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 The natives suffer enough - to jail one for accidentally killing his own children while crazed on white mans poison is not ethical. given my heritage i agree to there great great grandfathers and ancestors but a hand me down drunk is still a drunk, and all to many haven't made the choice to change, i live by a res and i know the effect alcohol has on crime with natives, and gang iconisism does not help it. he made a wrong choice and as an adult should have his own justice. that also means redeeming his action through accepting punishment for the death of those young children... 'white man's poison' is only called so due to native excuses to blame and excuse there actions... i am native, ive been drunk, but i am no alcoholic and i would accept punishment for anything 'I' did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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