The Gypsies

[Yorkness]

Hey, this has been an issue that I have always considered quite complex and bewildering. That issue is that of Gypsy adaptation into society whether historic or contemporary though I like to focus on contemporary issues. How is it that Gypsies have been and continue to be at the fringe of any society in which they live? Sure they have faced persecution, but what have they themselves done to relieve such sentiment? I believe this issue could quite well be compared to that of our own native people of Canada in a few ways as they live on the fringe of Canadian society as do the gypsies. So; Why is this an issue people?

[eyeball]

Why is this an issue people?

Somebody's trying to make it one.

[Rue]

The Roma people were believed to have migrated from northern India about 1,000 years ago. They are actually a collective of tribes with at least 2 languages, Sinti and Roma or Romani.

The word Gypsies came about as it is short for Egyptians because some believed that is where they came from.

Like the Jews of Europe, because they were non Christian and also not allowed to own land or enjoy equal citizenship they were forced to live in segregated ghettoes and become Nomads of Europe.

Their dark-skin, language, culture, clothing, no different then with the Jews served as fuel for Europeans to create myths and stereotypes about them and become suspicious and and fearful of them.

Inerestingly like the native peoples of Canada, Christian European societies and theur governments tried to assimilate them by illegally taking away their their children and placing them with Christian families or in Christian educational institutions. Sound familiar? European governments also like our North American governments, rounded them up and tried to force them to become farmers, outlawing their customs, language, and clothing as well as forcing them to attend Christian schools and churches.

European states also issued decrees, laws, and mandates discriminating against the Romas no different then what was done with the Jews and the Romas like Jews were constantly targetted for attacks which saw their communities mass murdered after being raped, beaten, etc.

It was in he early 1700's the King of Prussia, Frederick William I of Prussia passed a law ordering all Romas over the age of 18 be hung.

Just like with the Jews there were Roma hunts where good Christians got on their horses and went after them like they were foxes killing them.

Like Jews they were registered, sterilized, ghettoized, and then deported to concentration and death camps by the Nazis and it is estimated somewhere between 250,000 to 500,000 Romas died in the holocaust.

The Romas refer to the holocaust which we Jews call the Shoah as the "Porajmos" which means the "Devouring" and I believe that word is powerful and appropriate.

So are they all crooks and pick-pockets? Well it is like anything else. If you segregate people and cut them off from the main-stream you force them to be itinerant. Romas like Jews could not own land. They could not own businesses or become professionals and they were constantly being shit on.

So they do what scapegoats and cursed hated people do, they became insular. They turned inwords from the hostile world into their own world and did what they could to survive and yes some were forced to become petty thieves and pick-pockets and like Jews were accused of every crime and evil behaviour there was including like Jews alleging engaging in secret practices with Christian children and making food from their blood.

Today Romas like native peoples in North America have huge social problems trying to assimilate. They are trying to prserve their culture in Europe at a time when they are despised and yes in certain cities they have become a nuisance and are often arrested for pick-pocketing and push and grab scams and yes some beg but no they are not all thieves although one could raise the image of Shylock or Fagan and say their is striking similiarity-humans turned into allegedly vile creatures by the hostile environment around them.

All I know is their history is remarkably similar to the Jews of Europe and many other peoples who have been the source of continuous persecution.

Whether they ever find an escape from their cursed life by assimilation or by achieving equality and self-respect, etc. is anyone's guess. European societies at the best of times have not exactly been tolerant and in today's recession, tolerance is probably less likely as everyone turns inwords and finds the word hostile.

[August1991]

Somebody's trying to make it one.

It's an issue in Europe (particularly in the east and the south) but not in North America.

Gypsies often live in ghettos on the periphery of centres but they are now overshadowed by Muslim immigration. France has many zones sensibles.

Racial relations in America (North and South - even with slavery) are entirely unlike anywhere else in the world. I was in Poland this past summer and the silence is deafening. There are too many ghosts.

Today Romas like native peoples in North America have huge social problems trying to assimilate.

I don't know if I would go that far in making the comparison.

North (and South) America are open societies that accept anyone. Europe and elsewhere are not the same.

I agree however that the ancestors of Africans, aboriginals and French never chose the (American) society in which they now live.

Edited February 16, 2009 by August1991

[Wilber]

The Roma people were believed to have migrated from northern India about 1,000 years ago. They are actually a collective of tribes with at least 2 languages, Sinti and Roma or Romani.

Yes, watch your wallet when in Roma. Seriously.

[KeyStone]

Yes, the parallel between the Jews and the gypsies has always been an interesting one.

Both groups have been persecuted and blamed for many things. Both groups were rounded up and killed during the Nazi holocaust.

Yet, it seems that the persecution of gypsies is still generally acceptable, (see Italy recently for a prime example), while one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example).

Why did the rules change for one, but not the other.

Why are the Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust so well known, yet the Roma victims are almost unknown (about on par with the Nazi persecution of the Swing Kids).

[August1991]

Why are the Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust so well known, yet the Roma victims are almost unknown (about on par with the Nazi persecution of the Swing Kids).

Are Jewish victims so well known?

Is Israel a victim, or an oppressor?

Keystone, are Roma victims, or oppressors? Or does it depend? (For example, does it depend on their sex? Are Roma women victims? What about Roma men?)

Edited February 17, 2009 by August1991

[Sulaco]

Yes, the parallel between the Jews and the gypsies has always been an interesting one.

Both groups have been persecuted and blamed for many things. Both groups were rounded up and killed during the Nazi holocaust.

Yet, it seems that the persecution of gypsies is still generally acceptable, (see Italy recently for a prime example), while one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example).

Why did the rules change for one, but not the other.

Why are the Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust so well known, yet the Roma victims are almost unknown (about on par with the Nazi persecution of the Swing Kids).

And so to make things equal again it's time to re-ghettoize European Jews yet again.

In a serious answer to your question - Gypsy victims are not so well known because the Gypsies are not in a position to point out their victimization. They remain outside society - they are nomads with low levls of literacy or general education, little beyond oral histories, so on so forth. Can't make your history known when you choose isolation.

And regardless of our hand-wringing the Roma do choose isolation. They choose not to assimilate. In that they very much differ from Jewish communities today. I don't hold that against them, but I am also not going to place all the blame on European countries for their continued "ghettoization". It is largely self-imposed - though don't get me wrong the Roma have ample reason to distrust their hosts. Those valid reasons reasons for mistrust do, however, cut both ways.

Interestingly - the Roma are not the only group who choose isolation over assimilation. It's a choice, like any, that has its price. That price might be low in a place with ample room - like the US (see the mennenite, hacidic etc. communities), but in Europe the friction necessarily is rougher.

[M.Dancer]

Interestingly - the Roma are not the only group who choose isolation over assimilation. It's a choice, like any, that has its price. That price might be low in a place with ample room - like the US (see the mennenite, hacidic etc. communities), but in Europe the friction necessarily is rougher.

The difference betwen gypsies and the others, while the others may shy away from soical contact, they certainly don't shy away from commercial intercourse...

Consider the Mennonites and the hasid....they own businesses, land, go to school, universities..pay taxes....

What keeps the gypsies on the edge is their nomadic lifestyle, turning their backs of formal education and a propensity to shun legitimate gainful employment.

[Oleg Bach]

The difference betwen gypsies and the others, while the others may shy away from soical contact, they certainly don't shy away from commercial intercourse...

Consider the Mennonites and the hasid....they own businesses, land, go to school, universities..pay taxes....

What keeps the gypsies on the edge is their nomadic lifestyle, turning their backs of formal education and a propensity to shun legitimate gainful employment.

Some folks just won't submit...bad bad people.. The Jews would not submit - The Slavic tribes would not submit - the homosexuals would not submit. Hitler did his best to bring about compliance and make sure that these groups were gainfully employed by the state - There are some that would rather die than comply with earthy demi-godish goofs. So put on the yolk and are good little boys...Gypsies should be rounded up and medicated...

[Rue]

Yes, the parallel between the Jews and the gypsies has always been an interesting one.

Both groups have been persecuted and blamed for many things. Both groups were rounded up and killed during the Nazi holocaust.

Yet, it seems that the persecution of gypsies is still generally acceptable, (see Italy recently for a prime example), while one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example).

Why did the rules change for one, but not the other.

Why are the Jewish victims of the Nazi holocaust so well known, yet the Roma victims are almost unknown (about on par with the Nazi persecution of the Swing Kids).

Why are you trying to play one group off the other in your remarks?

Are you genuinely interested in the discrimination against Roma peoples or are you just using it as an opportunity to take a shot at Jews, i.e.,

"while one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example). "

I am not sure if the above comment was intentional or not.

Here is the point.

The persecution of Romas including their slaughter in the Shoa is well known to Jews and is part of Israeli and Jewish holocaust studies programs.

Why people do not take the time to find out what happened to the Romas is a universal question as to why people are ego-centric. Please discuss the issue without using words that can be construed to suggest it confers unfair historic benefit to Jews. It does not-it simply manifests ignorance of Romas.

There is no competition between Jews and Romas or for that matter between Jews, Romas, 7th Dat Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, gays or righteous gentiles who perished in the death camps. We all respect each other's legacies.

As for Mel Gibson you might want to consider that his problems are a lot more complicated then getting drunk and mouthing off in a stupor about Jews.

More to the point his career has not suffered. Of course if you want to provide proof of a Hollywood conspiracy to have victimized him please prove it.

Mel Gibson is an emotionally unstable and troubled soul and that probably has a lot to do with his father and the extremist intolerant religious views he was brought up on plus his unresolved issues with his father and his drinking and I think most people would agree while he is a disturbed and angry man he brought his problems on himself with his conduct.

Back to the Roma people they are simply yet another example of what "civilized Christian" European society did and does with those perceived to look or be different.

There are few Jews left to kick around (although it continues under the pretense of anti-Israeli protests) but it continues to be directed at Romas and other "coloured folks", i.e., Turks, Africans.

So what is it you resent-Jews or the mistreatment of Romas?

Yah I know, you have only concern for Romas.

[KeyStone]

Why are you trying to play one group off the other in your remarks?

Are you genuinely interested in the discrimination against Roma peoples or are you just using it as an opportunity to take a shot at Jews, i.e.,

"while one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example). "

I am not sure if the above comment was intentional or not.

Here is the point.

The persecution of Romas including their slaughter in the Shoa is well known to Jews and is part of Israeli and Jewish holocaust studies programs.

Why people do not take the time to find out what happened to the Romas is a universal question as to why people are ego-centric. Please discuss the issue without using words that can be construed to suggest it confers unfair historic benefit to Jews. It does not-it simply manifests ignorance of Romas.

There is no competition between Jews and Romas or for that matter between Jews, Romas, 7th Dat Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses, gays or righteous gentiles who perished in the death camps. We all respect each other's legacies.

As for Mel Gibson you might want to consider that his problems are a lot more complicated then getting drunk and mouthing off in a stupor about Jews.

More to the point his career has not suffered. Of course if you want to provide proof of a Hollywood conspiracy to have victimized him please prove it.

Mel Gibson is an emotionally unstable and troubled soul and that probably has a lot to do with his father and the extremist intolerant religious views he was brought up on plus his unresolved issues with his father and his drinking and I think most people would agree while he is a disturbed and angry man he brought his problems on himself with his conduct.

Back to the Roma people they are simply yet another example of what "civilized Christian" European society did and does with those perceived to look or be different.

There are few Jews left to kick around (although it continues under the pretense of anti-Israeli protests) but it continues to be directed at Romas and other "coloured folks", i.e., Turks, Africans.

So what is it you resent-Jews or the mistreatment of Romas?

Yah I know, you have only concern for Romas.

Well Rue, while you have clearly established that you are one of those that sees anti-semitism in cloud formations, that was not in fact the point of my question.

The point of my question was to determine why two groups with similar histories of persecution have such different results today.

Perhaps the success of the Jews, in terms of changing public opinion, can be learned from, and applied to the Gypsies such that their persecution is no longer tolerated either.

[Rue]

Well Rue, while you have clearly established that you are one of those that sees anti-semitism in cloud formations, that was not in fact the point of my question.

You did not ask a question you made a comment and I quote:

"one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example). "

The original poster's question I understood. Sulaco's response for example offered some excellent insights as to the original poster's question.

The above remark however suggests you believe peoples careers are destroyed by saying something bad about Jews. That is a subjective assumption and one that assigns a characteristic, i.e., a power to destroy to all us Jews when people speak poorly about us.

That Sir is anti-semitic drivel not cloud formations. It is a classic example of an aside where you just toss it out and now claim your sole concern is to learn from Jews to help Romas? Right-of course.

Get real. People on a daily basis challenge the holocaust's existence and use it to debase and insult Jews, as a pretext to attack the right of the state of Israel to exist and as your remark deliberately suggests will destroy any mere mortal that gets in its way.

That is why I challenged you-the above statement. It has nothing to do with the Romas nor is it even remotely germaine to understanding why people do not take the time to understand what happened to the Romas.

What it does do is suggest-Jews have something, Romas should have it to.

That is precisely the kind of reasoning I challenge.

The Jews have nothing the Romas want or vice versa. That is what you do not get and your remark that Jews destroy careers reveals with due respect.

Romas know what happened. They remember their legacy. Whether you remember it has nothing to do with what we Jews do to remember it or what righteous gentiles or gays or 7th day Adventists, do to remember it-it has to do with how YOU remember it.

Stop looking to see what Jews have and pay attention to what you DO NOT HAVE and why.

Do you really think anyone who survives a catastrophe can do anything more then try remember it and maintain records of it? That is all they can do-stop assigning them extra powers of destruction, coercion and intimidation and understand if people remember what happened to them it is because those individuals, on an individual basis choose to do so without being forced or threatened or coerced.

More to the point nothing in the Mel Gibson scenario has anything at all to do with issues as to how we create education or historic curriculum to help people understand the past. Mel Gibson did not get into trouble because he questioned the holocaust-he got into hot water because he was drunk and made hateful slurs about Jews as a people.

Interestingly Mel Gibson has never denied the holocaust. He has said many stupid things but that is one thing he did not do.

As for the Romas their memory in the holocaust will be preserved by their people and by the State of Israel and by the numerous holocaust studies programs and courses across the world.

Whether you choose to open your eyes to them and stop looking at Jews as if they have managed to create a double standard as to the horrors from the Shoa remains the question.

Protest thine innocence with someone else.

[KeyStone]

You did not ask a question you made a comment and I quote:

"one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example). "

The original poster's question I understood. Sulaco's response for example offered some excellent insights as to the original poster's question.

The above remark however suggests you believe peoples careers are destroyed by saying something bad about Jews. That is a subjective assumption and one that assigns a characteristic, i.e., a power to destroy to all us Jews when people speak poorly about us.

That Sir is anti-semitic drivel not cloud formations. It is a classic example of an aside where you just toss it out and now claim your sole concern is to learn from Jews to help Romas? Right-of course.

Get real. People on a daily basis challenge the holocaust's existence and use it to debase and insult Jews, as a pretext to attack the right of the state of Israel to exist and as your remark deliberately suggests will destroy any mere mortal that gets in its way.

That is why I challenged you-the above statement. It has nothing to do with the Romas nor is it even remotely germaine to understanding why people do not take the time to understand what happened to the Romas.

What it does do is suggest-Jews have something, Romas should have it to.

That is precisely the kind of reasoning I challenge.

The Jews have nothing the Romas want or vice versa. That is what you do not get and your remark that Jews destroy careers reveals with due respect.

Romas know what happened. They remember their legacy. Whether you remember it has nothing to do with what we Jews do to remember it or what righteous gentiles or gays or 7th day Adventists, do to remember it-it has to do with how YOU remember it.

Stop looking to see what Jews have and pay attention to what you DO NOT HAVE and why.

Do you really think anyone who survives a catastrophe can do anything more then try remember it and maintain records of it? That is all they can do-stop assigning them extra powers of destruction, coercion and intimidation and understand if people remember what happened to them it is because those individuals, on an individual basis choose to do so without being forced or threatened or coerced.

More to the point nothing in the Mel Gibson scenario has anything at all to do with issues as to how we create education or historic curriculum to help people understand the past. Mel Gibson did not get into trouble because he questioned the holocaust-he got into hot water because he was drunk and made hateful slurs about Jews as a people.

Interestingly Mel Gibson has never denied the holocaust. He has said many stupid things but that is one thing he did not do.

As for the Romas their memory in the holocaust will be preserved by their people and by the State of Israel and by the numerous holocaust studies programs and courses across the world.

Whether you choose to open your eyes to them and stop looking at Jews as if they have managed to create a double standard as to the horrors from the Shoa remains the question.

Protest thine innocence with someone else.

Well, you must have been saving up these arguments for some time. It's a shame that they don't really apply here, but feel free to cut and paste them the next time you feel that you must accuse someone of being a Jew hater.

I'm not quite sure how you deduce from my statement that "one can have a career destroyed simply by saying something bad about Jews (see Mel Gibson for a prime example)", that I think there is a worldwide conspiracy of Jews.

The fact is that Mel Gibson said some anti-semitic things and his career has never been the same, and he is a constant butt of jokes ever since.

This does not mean that the Jews did this to him.

Michael Richards had his career destroyed by making some offensive comments about blacks. Does this mean that I think there is a worldwide conspiracy of all-powerful blacks? No.

The point is, that it is understood that we can not say derogatory things against Jews and get away with it, whereas Gypsies do not share that same fate. Do you think that the world would sit idly by while Berlusconi fingerprinted the Jews? Probably not.

So, go on, with your protests and long-winded poorly targeted accusations of anti-semitism.

The faulty deductive reasoning you've displayed here, is an excellent example of how you have come to the many faulty conclusions that you have.

And if you truly think that the Jews have nothing that the Roma want, you're even dumber than I thought.

Edited March 3, 2009 by KeyStone