wulf42 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Hamas have to be the dumbest people in the history of the Earth...how much punishment do they have to take before they realize they are and never will be a match for Israel? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7853803.stm Quote
dub Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 Hamas have to be the dumbest people in the history of the Earth...how much punishment do they have to take before they realize they are and never will be a match for Israel?http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7853803.stm the jews took a lot of punishment from the nazis, yet they stayed strong and resisted nazis' actions the best they could. do you think they were also dumb? Quote
wulf42 Posted January 27, 2009 Author Report Posted January 27, 2009 the jews took a lot of punishment from the nazis, yet they stayed strong and resisted nazis' actions the best they could. do you think they were also dumb? Hamas is a fanatical terrorist group nothing more! Quote
He Who Hesistates Posted January 27, 2009 Report Posted January 27, 2009 the jews took a lot of punishment from the nazis, yet they stayed strong and resisted nazis' actions the best they could. do you think they were also dumb? I would just like to take this opportunity to state that, for the record, references to the Nazis do not apply in every situation. My first objection to this statement is in terms of accuracy. Hamas instigated its conflict, the Jews did not. Hamas would like nothing better than to see Israel utterly destroyed, simply as a part of who they are- the Jews did not wish the same to the Nazis; quite the opposite in fact. The Nazis committed their crimes in an institutionalized, cold, murder-by-numbers sort of way. If Israel has committed crimes, then they are crimes of battle- disregard for civilian casualties, overextension, overreaction- not the systematic and deliberate slaughter of non-combatants. The Jews had no options but to run or die, but all Hamas has to do is lay down their weapons, perhaps turn over some of their leaders to the Hague, and there will be no more- or little- fighting. Secondly, don't you think that Hitler references are becoming more than a little clichéd? We have three-thousand years of recorded history- more, perhaps, in some places- I'm certain we can find more than one example to relate our arguments to. Certainly Hitler had perhaps the largest influence on modern history of any man, and I do see the slight irony of this comparison, but it would make debates much more interesting we did not in some was refer to the third reich once a page. I'm just... tired of it. It's unoriginal and a wee bit childish. Quote
wulf42 Posted January 28, 2009 Author Report Posted January 28, 2009 I would just like to take this opportunity to state that, for the record, references to the Nazis do not apply in every situation. My first objection to this statement is in terms of accuracy. Hamas instigated its conflict, the Jews did not. Hamas would like nothing better than to see Israel utterly destroyed, simply as a part of who they are- the Jews did not wish the same to the Nazis; quite the opposite in fact. The Nazis committed their crimes in an institutionalized, cold, murder-by-numbers sort of way. If Israel has committed crimes, then they are crimes of battle- disregard for civilian casualties, overextension, overreaction- not the systematic and deliberate slaughter of non-combatants. The Jews had no options but to run or die, but all Hamas has to do is lay down their weapons, perhaps turn over some of their leaders to the Hague, and there will be no more- or little- fighting. Secondly, don't you think that Hitler references are becoming more than a little clichéd? We have three-thousand years of recorded history- more, perhaps, in some places- I'm certain we can find more than one example to relate our arguments to. Certainly Hitler had perhaps the largest influence on modern history of any man, and I do see the slight irony of this comparison, but it would make debates much more interesting we did not in some was refer to the third reich once a page. I'm just... tired of it. It's unoriginal and a wee bit childish. Hitler unfortunately has become a household name.....i even hear little kids refer to Hitler or the Nazis when they refer to anyone bad. Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) I would just like to take this opportunity to state that, for the record, references to the Nazis do not apply in every situation. both sides use the nazis to describe the other. although the situations are not the same, there are some similarities between the jews during the holocaust and the palestinians now and for the past 60 years. to name a few similarities: - they are under occupation - many live inside enclaves and behind borders, roads and walls that are controlled by the occupier - they have no military and are fighting against a superior military with state of the art weapons - the occupation has killed thousands of innocent civilians. (although the numbers who have been killed do not come close in comparison, they still are being killed in large numbers - ie; 400 palestinian children killed in a 3 week assault) My first objection to this statement is in terms of accuracy. Hamas instigated its conflict, the Jews did not. many disagree with that. the reason for that is because hamas did not fire any rockets and there were only a handful of rockets fired by other groups during the ceasefire. the hamas rockets started launching after israel attacked inside the gaza border and killed several number of palestinians. even israel agrees with that. just look at the video clip above. Hamas would like nothing better than to see Israel utterly destroyed, simply as a part of who they are- the Jews did not wish the same to the Nazis; you mean the jews who lived in the warsaw ghettos did not want to see the nazis destroyed? i highly doubt that. quite the opposite in fact. The Nazis committed their crimes in an institutionalized, cold, murder-by-numbers sort of way. If Israel has committed crimes, then they are crimes of battle- disregard for civilian casualties, overextension, overreaction- not the systematic and deliberate slaughter of non-combatants. this i agree with. this is not a systematic killing spree by israel. i don't think anyone is saying this. the other similarities in the way the israelis are treating the palestinians still stand. not to mention the fact that it was the jews who experienced such a treatment by the nazis and who are now violating international law. The Jews had no options but to run or die, but all Hamas has to do is lay down their weapons, perhaps turn over some of their leaders to the Hague, and there will be no more- or little- fighting. the hague is actually after the israeli military as well. they've been accused by many human rights organizations of violating many human rights laws. Secondly, don't you think that Hitler references are becoming more than a little clichéd? We have three-thousand years of recorded history- more, perhaps, in some places- I'm certain we can find more than one example to relate our arguments to. Certainly Hitler had perhaps the largest influence on modern history of any man, and I do see the slight irony of this comparison, but it would make debates much more interesting we did not in some was refer to the third reich once a page. I'm just... tired of it. It's unoriginal and a wee bit childish. as mentioned above, there are many similarities and it's also a valid comparison because the very same people who experienced the holocaust are now putting another people under a similar situation. Edited January 28, 2009 by dub Quote
dub Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Hitler unfortunately has become a household name.....i even hear little kids refer to Hitler or the Nazis when they refer to anyone bad. that is true. i frequently hear ahmadinejad being called hitler or his regime called the nazis when they refer to him. Quote
eyeball Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 the very same people who experienced the holocaust are now putting another people under a similar situation. Like the Jews in Europe, Palestinians also face a largely indifferent world. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Like the Jews in Europe, Palestinians also face a largely indifferent world. Remind me again, how many times did te Jews attack Germany and how may times did the Germans offer a ceasefire? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Remind me again, how many times did te Jews attack Germany and how may times did the Germans offer a ceasefire? There were none that I'm aware of. Why do you ask? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 There were none that I'm aware of. Why do you ask? Oh mainly because of the dissimilarities between the current crop of palestinians and the Jews of Europe circa 1936-45 Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 The dissimilarities must make the similarities stand out all the more I guess. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Argus Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 that is true. i frequently hear ahmadinejad being called hitler or his regime called the nazis when they refer to him. Well, he hates Jews too. And he is a ruthless dictator who may or may not be sane (he may just be really, really stupid). Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Like the Jews in Europe, Palestinians also face a largely indifferent world. Right, because it's not like the Palestinian issue isn't on the news every freaking night, and hasn't been for years, and it's not like the UN and all its member agencies don't spend more time gnashing their teeth over Palestinians than any other group on the planet - than any other fifty groups put together on the planet. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 as mentioned above, there are many similarities and it's also a valid comparison because the very same people who experienced the holocaust are now putting another people under a similar situation. A similar situation? Only a fool or an anti-semite would consider their situations similar. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Right, because it's not like the Palestinian issue isn't on the news every freaking night, and hasn't been for years, and it's not like the UN and all its member agencies don't spend more time gnashing their teeth over Palestinians than any other group on the planet - than any other fifty groups put together on the planet. Palestinians were no more an issue when Israel was being born than Jews were when the Nazis started down their path. Of course that changed and its amazing that its still an issue after all this time and that such a tiny patch of Earth can command so much attention from the rest of it. The fact remains the people in the part of the world in question did and still do share a common experience of indifference - both Palestininians and Jews know what it is like to exist far from people's minds or concern. This could be a good thing but it seems some people's hatred is so great that even the suggestion that common ground might exist is a blasphemy. I guess that's why it seems poised to remain such an enormously intractable issue. Perhaps the people in that part of the world have come to the point that they just can't exist without being the center of attention. Maybe a little bit of indifference is now required. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Like the Jews in Europe, Palestinians also face a largely indifferent world. Palestinians were no more an issue when Israel was being born than Jews were when the Nazis started down their path. Of course that changed and its amazing that its still an issue after all this time and that such a tiny patch of Earth can command so much attention from the rest of it. I'm always amazed by people who hold conflicting and erroneous ideas simultaneously. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
BigAl Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 I would just like to take this opportunity to state that, for the record, references to the Nazis do not apply in every situation. My first objection to this statement is in terms of accuracy. Hamas instigated its conflict, the Jews did not. Hamas would like nothing better than to see Israel utterly destroyed, simply as a part of who they are- the Jews did not wish the same to the Nazis; quite the opposite in fact. The Nazis committed their crimes in an institutionalized, cold, murder-by-numbers sort of way. If Israel has committed crimes, then they are crimes of battle- disregard for civilian casualties, overextension, overreaction- not the systematic and deliberate slaughter of non-combatants. The Jews had no options but to run or die, but all Hamas has to do is lay down their weapons, perhaps turn over some of their leaders to the Hague, and there will be no more- or little- fighting. Secondly, don't you think that Hitler references are becoming more than a little clichéd? We have three-thousand years of recorded history- more, perhaps, in some places- I'm certain we can find more than one example to relate our arguments to. Certainly Hitler had perhaps the largest influence on modern history of any man, and I do see the slight irony of this comparison, but it would make debates much more interesting we did not in some was refer to the third reich once a page. I'm just... tired of it. It's unoriginal and a wee bit childish. I absolutely couldn't agree more. My heritage is one-half German, and I find it distressing and frustrating that in a world full of genocidal maniacs we continue to harp on (and judge a people based on) only one specific example. My grandparents faced (and continue to face) considerable racism due to their involvement in the war, even though my grandfather was regular army (drafted) and my grandmother was a schoolgirl at the time. I recognize the horror of what went on, but finding another example might not be such a bad idea...the German people have been paying for their admittedly tremendous mistake for over sixty years...it's getting old. Quote
OddSox Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 I think Usenet had the right idea when it comes to invoking Nazis and/or Hitler. Too bad nobody seems to pay attention any more. http://www.killfile.org/~tskirvin/faqs/godwin.html Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 ..... I recognize the horror of what went on, but finding another example might not be such a bad idea...the German people have been paying for their admittedly tremendous mistake for over sixty years...it's getting old. True, but methinks the "German people" are going hear about their "mistake" for a lot longer than sixty years....maybe as long as the Third Reich was suppose to exist. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 I absolutely couldn't agree more. My heritage is one-half German, and I find it distressing and frustrating that in a world full of genocidal maniacs we continue to harp on (and judge a people based on) only one specific example. My grandparents faced (and continue to face) considerable racism due to their involvement in the war, even though my grandfather was regular army (drafted) and my grandmother was a schoolgirl at the time. I recognize the horror of what went on, but finding another example might not be such a bad idea...the German people have been paying for their admittedly tremendous mistake for over sixty years...it's getting old. Similar background. Jews and Nazis together in the same family. Volga-German heritage (German colony near Saratov). Uncle who was an officer in the SS (dead now)...also an aunt who is (still kickin') a 'famous' Holocaust survivor. We had a family reunion back in 1980-81 or so where they all got to sit down and eat together. ---------------------------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Similar background. ---------------------------------------------------- It's a Daisy. Me too. I have a Scots Irish background and my best friend is a New Zealander who used to raise sheep...bugger wouldn't let me wear my wellies... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
BigAl Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 True, but methinks the "German people" are going hear about their "mistake" for a lot longer than sixty years....maybe as long as the Third Reich was suppose to exist. I'm a firm believer that the sins of the father should not be passed to the son. Hence, for example, why I'm willing to give the American people the benefit of the doubt despite the eight years' worth of war crimes perpetrated by their recent government. Contrary to popular belief, not *every* German was a Nazi. Not even a majority, in fact. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 Me too. I have a Scots Irish background and my best friend is a New Zealander who used to raise sheep...bugger wouldn't let me wear my wellies... Hey...it's "gumboots"...get it right. ------------------------ Hard pounding, gentlemen. Let's see who pounds the longest. ---Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 28, 2009 Report Posted January 28, 2009 I'm a firm believer that the sins of the father should not be passed to the son. Hence, for example, why I'm willing to give the American people the benefit of the doubt despite the eight years' worth of war crimes perpetrated by their recent government. Contrary to popular belief, not *every* German was a Nazi. Not even a majority, in fact. Perhaps...but still 44% of the Volk voted National Socialist in the 1933 elections. ---------------------------------------------- Die Straße frei den braunen Bataillonen. Die Straße frei dem Sturmabteilungsmann! Es schau'n aufs Hakenkreuz voll Hoffnung schon Millionen. Der Tag für Freiheit und für Brot bricht an! Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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