Pope reinstates bishop who denies the Holocaust

[WIP]

The swimming pool at Auschwitz is part of the original Polish Army camp. After the Germans captured the place in 1939, Auschwitz was converted into a camp for mainly Polish political prisoners. The meat-grinder was Birkenau located a short distance away built especially by the SS to handle the 'Jewish problem'. The real mass killing @ Auschwitz-Birkenau didn't begin until 1942.

The death toll...like at so many sites of the Holocaust...is up for grabs as so much of the human evidence literally went up in smoke. As well, there are numerous sites like the infamous Babi-Yar where mass killings took place without camps...simply round up the Jews and shoot them. Nazi record keeping gives us excellent estimates in most cases, but you gotta figure there's always a little freelance 'under-the-table' activities in any venture. Another consideration is that the concentration camps run by Axis fascists other than the SS (like Jasenovac) tended to not be so picky about the paperwork.

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Nations have their ego, just like individuals.

---James Joyce

Thanks for the new info, but when I first heard of the "swimming pool" a couple of years ago, I started to realize that people who argue from weak positions of evidence are just using a strategy of quantity over quality. I first noticed this on creation/evolution debates where creationists don't bother trying to prove a case, but instead raise an endless stream of objections to keep the other side busy tracking down and writing arguments to refute them; and as soon as that one is challenged, another one pops up! The game never ends! The objective appears to be to demonstrate a willingness to argue and write long, expansive pieces to make it appear to their less informed readers that a real debate is going on.

If you break down the logic of this argument, even if a swimming pool actually existed at Auschwitz, how would that disprove the existence of gas chambers and crematoriums? Or if this bishop was correct, and only two million Jews died in Nazi-occupied Germany, how does that make it something other than a war crime? And most important, why does he think this is an issue worth arguing today? Certainly, he wants to absolve some of the people he admires from their roles in WWII, but it also appears that he represents a theological position that is dependent on an adversarial relationship with Judaism. This was the Church position before WWII, and he is likely troubled by the Church's apologies to Jews since, and wants a return to the old hard line position that Jews are Christ-killers and enemies of the New Covenant.

[ToadBrother]

If you break down the logic of this argument, even if a swimming pool actually existed at Auschwitz, how would that disprove the existence of gas chambers and crematoriums? Or if this bishop was correct, and only two million Jews died in Nazi-occupied Germany, how does that make it something other than a war crime?

There are really two kinds of Deniers out there. On the one hand are the likes of Ernst Zundel, who pretty much deny the event entirely. On the other hand are what you might the "Minimalizers", those that don't outright say the Nazis didn't target Jews, but try to minimalize the extent of the tragedy. I don't really see that much that's different, minimalists are simply trying to be more "diplomatic" in their denial, "Oh you know, that Hitler was a beastly fellow, but not as bad as some make out."

The numbers arrived at are in large part taken from pre-war census figures. There's no way that they will be one hundred percent accurate, but the six million figure seems a reasonable estimate. Anyone who says, however, that the real number is less than half the estimate are being odd, anyone who says only a few hundred thousand were killed are Holocaust Deniers pure and simple.

As to the swimming pool line, I'm assuming the point of that kind of comment is to make the death camps sound more like Club Meds than, well, death camps. "Oh, you know, they had a pool, how could they have killed all those Jews."

And most important, why does he think this is an issue worth arguing today? Certainly, he wants to absolve some of the people he admires from their roles in WWII, but it also appears that he represents a theological position that is dependent on an adversarial relationship with Judaism. This was the Church position before WWII, and he is likely troubled by the Church's apologies to Jews since, and wants a return to the old hard line position that Jews are Christ-killers and enemies of the New Covenant.

I don't buy into this "The Pope is a closet Nazi" crap. I think, in this case, he was seeking reconciliation with the arch-conservatives, probably in a genuine spirit of forgiveness (and in getting some allies in underming Vatican II), but it appears that there was a major breakdown between the Pope and some of his underlings, and the Pope probably wasn't the least bit aware that Williamson was a Holocaust Denier. What happened after that seems fairly typical of anybody in high office who screws up big time; at first to simply deny that their appointment or rehabilitation had anything to do with "private" views or actions, then to the classic "The Vatican does not necessarily approve of the views being stated by its clergy", and then, when that fails, and particularly where the subject of controversy makes vague noises that might resemble a retraction or apology, but upon closer scrutiny, reveal no such thing, to basically command said individual to do the right thing.

The only problem with this, as I have a problem with one of Obama's appointments going "Whoops, I guess I screwed up that tax return!" is how can you meaningfully judge the sincerity of such apologies. Does the Vatican actually believe that if Williamson stands in front of a microphone and says "I was wrong, the Holocaust really did happen and in something approaching the extent historians have calculated" that everyone will go "Well, hey, welcome back into the fold of the decent people."

The Vatican is a catch-22 here, and there's no easy way out. It might be best if Williamson said "Screw you, Benedict!" in which case, even if they don't re-excommunicate him, at least they can basically keep him from any Church duties, a sort of church version of "we'll let God sort that one out later".

Edited February 4, 2009 by ToadBrother

[Mr.Canada]

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

[ToadBrother]

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

Why? Can't you do that yourself?

[Mr.Canada]

Why? Can't you do that yourself?

You made the claim. I want to see proof. Give me a cite please.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

[CANADIEN]

You made the claim. I want to see proof. Give me a cite please.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

I'll do one thing better than that. Tell me what town you live in, and I'll get you the website for their public library. Because if you take any book on WWII by any serious historians, you'll get about the same numbers, and their sources. Go and read it ---- it's called learning the facts.

What you have is lies coming from the mouth of liars, which you are eager to accept.

[M.Dancer]

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

What exactly would the difference be between 1946 and 1948?

[M.Dancer]

In 1933, approximately 9.5 million Jews lived in Europe, comprising 1.7% of the total European population. This number represented more than 60 percent of the world's Jewish population at that time, estimated at 15.3 million.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

According to the American Jewish Yearbook, the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million in 1933. In 1950, the Jewish population of Europe was about 3.5 million. In 1933, 60 percent of all Jews lived in Europe. In 1950, most Jews (51 percent) lived in the Americas (North and South combined), while only a third of the world's Jewish population lived in Europe.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=...duleId=10005687

[Mr.Canada]

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?ModuleId=10005161

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=...duleId=10005687

I'd like a non biased source please.

[M.Dancer]

I'd like a non biased source please.

No you don't. You want an incredibly bias source.

[Oleg Bach]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

Looks like this priest's reinstatement will hurt Catholic-Jewish relations in a large way.

The conflict that exists between the lost and converted Jews that run the Vatican and those that have not relented to conversion to Christianity a thousand years ago are still going at it. If Judaism is a race and a religion - do some genetic testing and you will see the high archy that controls the Vatican are the old feuding brothers of the Jews...and on it goes a fight over who killed Christ - the state of Rome or the interloping semites of ancient Judea. It all comes down to the killing of a benevolent and gifted king ---- Rome killed Jesus - they controled all. To welcome a priest back into the fold who would gladly go on holocausting his ancient brothers is quietly considered a hero by the estbablishment. All holocaust deniers are those with blood on their hands who will say "I did not kill anyone" - meanwhile the red drips from their paws and jaws.

[punked]

No you don't. You want an incredibly bias source.

BURN!!!

[Mr.Canada]

No you don't. You want an incredibly bias source.

Not at all. I'd like information from a neutral source.

[CANADIEN]

I'd like a non biased source please.

I second the opinion. Dancer, shame on you for relying on a source biassed towards the truth.

[ToadBrother]

You made the claim. I want to see proof. Give me a cite please.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/questions/numbers.shtml

In particular, this rather interesting passage by Harry W. Mazal:

Further to the excellent response given to your questions by my colleague, Dr. Richard Green, I would like to touch on a couple of points.

It is not quite true that accurate records of Jewish population do not exist. While a town-by-town census of, say, the Jews in Poland, or Hungary or Germany (to name but three countries in Europe) might be lacking, the governments of those countries themselves required that every child born had to be registered with not only his parents and his or her name, but with the religion of all three. It was this that made it relatively easy for the Nazis to round up Jews in every country.

Highly accurate demographic estimates of the Jewish people exist and are available to the general public. One publication has been providing these statistics since 1900 in their yearly printing of _The American Jewish Year Book_ Although my own personal collection only dates from 1932, the older volumes are available in any good public library. The yearbook for 1932 states:

"Of the total number of 15,192,218 Jews in the world, 9,418,248 reside in Europe, 538,609 in Africa, 585,791 in Asia, 24,783 in Australasia, and 4,624,787 in America."

These numbers were assembled before the Holocaust, before the Nazis came into power, and before there was any particular threat to the Jews in Europe.

The yearbook for 1947 states:

"Estimates of the world Jewish population have been assembled by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (except for the United States and Canada) and are probably the most authentic available at the present time. [Note: the effective date of this census is May, 1946 - HWM]. The figures reveal that the total Jewish population of the world has decreased by one-third from about 16,600,000 in 1939 to about 11,000,000 in 1946 as the result of the annihilation by the Nazis of more than five and a half million European Jews."

"In Europe only an estimated 3,642,000 remain of the total Jewish pre-war population of approximately 9,740,000. The major part of the present Jewish population -- about 5,176,000 -- lives in the United States and Canada. [...]"

Even with limited skills in the field of statistics it is possible to confirm that a potential growth from 15,192,000 in 1932 to a population of 16,500,000 in 1946 would not have been impossible nor unreasonable. It would have signified a growth of just over 9% in Jewish population in a period of 15 years. This was, of course, not to be. With the murder of 1/3 of the Jews in the world during the period 1940-1945, the world population of Jews has not even reached the levels of 1940.

If you are truly interested in accurate, documented and verifiable statistics regarding the world population of Jews, I would, with respect suggest that you ask your local library to obtain a copy of Volume 6, Winter 1997, Number 3 of _The Journal of Holocaust Education_. This journal is published in Great Britain by Frank Cass & Co. ( http://www.frankcass.com ). This particular issue has an article entitled:

"Had the Holocaust not Happened, How Many Jews Would be Alive Today? A Survey of Jewish Demography 1890-2000" written by Prof. Sander A. Diamond.

The article can be found between pages 21 and 54.

A table published on page 48 is far more enlightening than anything I can say here.

Yours sincerely,

Harry W. Mazal OBE

Edited February 4, 2009 by ToadBrother

[punked]

You made the claim. I want to see proof. Give me a cite please.

Provide the census numbers pre and post war then at the birth or Israel please.

Wait let me get this straight you want census numbers of Jews, during one of the most Anti semitic times in Europe and top that off you want them:

A) Either during a war

B)Right after a war and a build up to another war

C) In countries which had no clear boundaries (Remember that is what the war was about?)

D) From countries which many did not count Jews not considering them people?

E) From several countries which did, or would have been entering revolutions to change the governing system completely in a non peaceful way?

Here try this go find me the official (not an estimate) Iraq population from 2001-2004. Remember Iraq is a small country not the whole world, it isn't didn't have half the shit that was going on Europe and it is a different time where census are much easier. Plus they have 300 000 troops to help out with whatever they need. Come back when you got those numbers ok? Also I am not even look for religion or other affiliations you are.

You are acting like an idiot for all the above reasons. If you can find numbers where are not estimates I would be shocked beyond belief.

Edited February 4, 2009 by punked

[ToadBrother]

Not at all. I'd like information from a neutral source.

And who precisely would you accept as a neutral source? It seems to me you're just moving the goal posts. It is beginning to look rather like you may actually be a Holocaust Denier. Apparently the Pope has made it very clear he doesn't like your kind.

[Oleg Bach]

How can you take the Vatican seriously...The contract presented by Christ had two parts.. Collect the wealth. Second part - disperse it to those as needed...Apparently they only kept half of the deal going. Also: the very occultish practice of stealing souls from children via child rape...is and has always been so common that it must be a tacit policy based in some nasty pagan tradition. I really can not grant the Vatican favour. If the Christ was to appear tomorrow - they would probably do away with him like the last time. Holocaust literally means to burn whole...the Vatican and the Jews will never rest untill either one burns the other at the stake...Christianity was destroyed with it's founder and religion was a much cheaper way to control the people than military oppression...it's economic....and yes - I am sure they are delluded as hell ---- When I see a mission on a hill in Central America - that costs millions - and the peasants are lucky to eat a chicken once a week, something is amiss. Why people are surprised by the reinstatement of a potential genocider should not be such a mystery or surprise.

[CANADIEN]

How about this quote?

"I will leap into my grave laughing because the feeling that I have five million human beings on my conscience is for me a source of extraordinary satisfaction."

Adolf Eichmann, 1945

[Oleg Bach]

How can you take the Vatican seriously...The contract presented by Christ had two parts.. Collect the wealth. Second part - disperse it to those as needed...Apparently they only kept half of the deal going. Also: the very occultish practice of stealing souls from children via child rape...is and has always been so common that it must be a tacit policy based in some nasty pagan tradition.

I really can not grant the Vatican favour. If the Christ was to appear tomorrow - they would probably do away with him like the last time. Holocaust literally means to burn whole...the Vatican and the Jews will never rest untill either one burns the other at the stake..

.Christianity was destroyed with it's founder and religion was a much cheaper way to control the people than military oppression...it's economic....and yes - I am sure they are delluded as hell ---- When I see a mission on a hill in Central America - that costs millions - and the peasants are lucky to eat a chicken once a week, something is amiss. Why people are surprised by the reinstatement of a potential genocider should not be such a mystery or surprise.

[M.Dancer]

He doesn't want a credible source given that the stats he has quoted come from an incredibly disreputable and highly biased source. What he means by neutral in this context is beyond me and I suspect it is merely a dodge. How does one stay neutral about the holocaust? Does that mean neutral is so empty headed that notions of holocaust denial become as legitimate as holocaust fact?.

Any credible source will show him to e an idiot, no one want to be made to seem like an idiot, therefore he does not want a credible source.

The logic is irrefutable

[ToadBrother]

He doesn't want a credible source given that the stats he has quoted come from an incredibly disreputable and highly biased source. What he means by neutral in this context is beyond me and I suspect it is merely a dodge. How does one stay neutral about the holocaust? Does that mean neutral is so empty headed that notions of holocaust denial become as legitimate as holocaust fact?.

Any credible source will show him to e an idiot, no one want to be made to seem like an idiot, therefore he does not want a credible source.

The logic is irrefutable

Neutrality in this case is researchers showing how they arrive at the numbers. As with any scientific study, a key aspect is that multiple methods and sources produce numbers that largely confirm each other. A number of different ways of solving the problem still come up with an answer that is somewhere between five and six million Jews, with somewhere around that many non-Jews (other "undesirables" as the Nazis saw it).

I have no idea what the "state of Israel" crap is, since many Jews didn't emigrate to Israel after the war. I have a hard time believing Mr.C is actually a Holocaust Denier, so at this point I think we're seeing some desperate attempts to bolster his argument by making what are a combination of impossible and nonsensical challenges. I really kind of pity him in a way, so full of bluster, and yet so much the coward.

[Oleg Bach]

Neutrality in this case is researchers showing how they arrive at the numbers. As with any scientific study, a key aspect is that multiple methods and sources produce numbers that largely confirm each other. A number of different ways of solving the problem still come up with an answer that is somewhere between five and six million Jews, with somewhere around that many non-Jews (other "undesirables" as the Nazis saw it).

I have no idea what the "state of Israel" crap is, since many Jews didn't emigrate to Israel after the war. I have a hard time believing Mr.C is actually a Holocaust Denier, so at this point I think we're seeing some desperate attempts to bolster his argument by making what are a combination of impossible and nonsensical challenges. I really kind of pity him in a way, so full of bluster, and yet so much the coward.

Blustering cowards swell up and weep under pressure - I had this nasty wife beating brother in law...and he smiled constantly...If he was challenged he would weep --- and on closer examination his mouth would foam...In truth he was not being a nice and sensitive guy --- he cried and foamed because he was so uncontrolably enrage that the tears would flow because he was like a mad dog that wanted to kill you - he cried out of frustration. All this priest wants to do is not just deny history - he wants to repeat it - this is standard anti-semitism and common Jew hate ---- he wants to murder because he is not smart enough to figure out who ever controled Judea killed Christ - and the Jews were not in control - THE ROMANS WERE...and the ROMAN Cathoics had better acknowledge that they killed the king...

[punked]

You don't belong yet feel you should have a say in how we run our CHurch? I find it amusing. Please continue your anti-Catholic rants. Jack Chick would be proud.

I belong, I give to the church gives me a say right? I say we drag the church kicking and screaming into the 20th century then if we aren't too tried I think we should drag into the 21 century. I do to church once a week, I go to confession. I want my say.

[Mr.Canada]

I belong, I give to the church gives me a say right? I say we drag the church kicking and screaming into the 20th century then if we aren't too tried I think we should drag into the 21 century. I do to church once a week, I go to confession. I want my say.

You deny the teachings. Hard to be Catholic and not belief the teachings but that really is besides the point. We cannot change doctrine in order to be popular with today's society. The Holy Mother Church teachings are divinely inspired, to go against them is to go against God.