Canadian Political Polls

[bush_cheney2004]

Accept that isn't true and the Torture memos released yesterday prove that. Yep they give some right answers sprinkled in with all kinds of made up stuff Moonbox. Now you figure out what is true what is false. Torture gives you nothing but people trying to punish another and many false answers. I am sorry it does not work.

Sure it can work, just not in the form you are thinking of. President Obama wants to pick "best in class" interrogation methods based on outcomes. That will include many physical and psychological methods that you don't approve of.

[punked]

Sure it can work, just not in the form you are thinking of. President Obama wants to pick "best in class" interrogation methods based on outcomes. That will include many physical and psychological methods that you don't approve of.

It will indeed. It will still be wrong and it still wont work.

[bush_cheney2004]

It will indeed. It will still be wrong and it still wont work.

Go tell that to your priest or mullah....some things are more important than your lofty notion of what is "right" or "wrong"

[Moonbox]

It will indeed. It will still be wrong and it still wont work.

No, it DOES work for the objectives its meant to complete. It probably does NOTHING to advance democratic rights, long term peace or anything of the sort, but it DOES help get REAL answers to questions that need answering.

If the American government knew that a group of terrorist had a biological or nuclear weapon and were bringing it to the US, and if they captured someone who knew about it, I wouldn't even blink if they had to torture him for that information. There are times when a 'lesser of evil' could help avert a catastrophic evil.

I understand what Ignatieff is saying in his essays. I agree with him. I just don't appreciate how he's back tracked on it because he feels it's an unpopular opinion to have in a relatively sheltered country.

[punked]

No, it DOES work for the objectives its meant to complete. It probably does NOTHING to advance democratic rights, long term peace or anything of the sort, but it DOES help get REAL answers to questions that need answering.

If the American government knew that a group of terrorist had a biological or nuclear weapon and were bringing it to the US, and if they captured someone who knew about it, I wouldn't even blink if they had to torture him for that information. There are times when a 'lesser of evil' could help avert a catastrophic evil.

I understand what Ignatieff is saying in his essays. I agree with him. I just don't appreciate how he's back tracked on it because he feels it's an unpopular opinion to have in a relatively sheltered country.

Give me an example of it working please. In the 8 years of torture give me an example.

[madmax]

I understand what Ignatieff is saying in his essays. I agree with him. I just don't appreciate how he's back tracked on it because he feels it's an unpopular opinion to have in a relatively sheltered country.

Whole quote .... well said. Its just that I disagree with your belief that torture works.

Interrogation— from Vietnam to Guantanamo Bay

My experience suggests it largely doesn’t. I was a Military Intelligence (MI) agent in Vietnam in 1966. I watched as we worked to dehumanize the enemy, some calling them “gooks,” “slopes,” and other terms designed to differentiate between them and us, the good guys and the bad guys.

The U.S. Army and other military services taught and practiced “IPW” or interrogation of prisoners of war techniques. A designation in your military service record verified that you had been taught to conduct “interviews” of enemy combatants. MI agents and other battlefield interrogators did what they believed they had to do to get information from a detainee, information that could save the lives of other GIs. After all, how could you compare the life of a Vietcong or a member of the North Vietnamese Army with that of an American, especially when our troops were being killed at such an alarming rate? And so it went, just as it had probably gone since combatants first squared off against each other with rocks and spears on the fields of battle around the world. We had to defeat “the enemy,” and if we needed to “take the gloves off,” we justified it in the name of war in order to bring our troops home alive.<Snip> It now appears that the military chain of command broke down and the significant and substantial difference between interrogation and torture was somehow lost. Trained and untrained military and government interrogators conducted these interviews, including National Guard and military reserve personnel, and U.S. Government intelligence agents (read: CIA) and other government contract employees. We have all seen the pictures of prisoners stripped naked and made to lie on top of each other, detainees wearing a dog collar and leash being led around by a laughing female guard, and attack dogs allowed to approach and possible abuse prisoners. We have heard of other alleged abuses, including lit cigarettes put in the ears of prisoners and physical beatings that have contributed to or caused the death of dozens of the detainees

[Keepitsimple]

Give me an example of it working please. In the 8 years of torture give me an example.

You are so naive. Would torture work on you? Of course it would. It would definitely work on me. On some people it works - on others it doesn't. You never hear of the cases where it works because it's not something that you would publicise - and is nothing to be proud of......and I'm sorry to hear that you would sacrifice your family because you couldn't agree to ANY torture. Remember what I said - there was nothing else that you could do - you wouldn't have a clue as to where to start - and you only had 2 hours - or one hour for that matter. And you would just sit there? Well, I guess at least you would still feel good about yourself. I'm not so sure your wife and family would think that much of your ideals. It is not a false premise - madmen are out there every day of the year trying to blow up mosques, churches, funeral parlours and innocent women and children. They're just not YOUR family so it's easy for you to have such lofty ideals.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It seems that this topic was once again hijacked for some purpose..............say yea!

[waldo]

It seems that this topic was once again hijacked for some purpose..............say yea!

ya - what gives... check the MLW archives morans! The torture thingee is so done like dinner - it has no legs... twill not fly...

now please set this "Canadian Political Polls" thread back on it's proper course - one that continues to show Liberals with prominent leads in seat rich Ontario/Quebec and one that shows the polling irrelevance of the NDP. Thanks in advance.

[madmax]

now please set this "Canadian Political Polls" thread back on it's proper course - one that continues to show Liberals with prominent leads in seat rich Ontario/Quebec and one that shows the polling irrelevance of the NDP. Thanks in advance.

By your command.....

http://www2.canada.com/montrealgazette/fea...80-070176668639

Summertime poll has bad news for Liberals

Despite the bad economy and a new leader, the Liberals are running second

L. IAN MACDONALD, The Gazette

Published: 7 hours ago

That's the kind of impact poll released by Ipsos this week for Canwest Global, indicating a Conservative summer surge to 39 per cent, with the Liberals at 28 per cent, and the NDP at 14 per cent. The Tories are up five points since the last Ipsos poll two months ago, and the Grits are down seven.

The party that should be holding a double-digit lead, with a brand-new leader and a very bad economy, is instead down by double digits

It isn't just the overall numbers that should worry the Liberals. The regional breakouts are even worse, and Michael Ignatieff's leadership numbers have gone south.

Consider: In Ontario, the Conservatives have moved out to 43 per cent to 31 per cent over the Liberals. That's huge. In a province with 106 seats, which provided as many as 75 seats to the Liberals as recently as 2004, these numbers would translate into at least 65 Conservative seats to about 35 for the Grits. The Liberals would be reduced to a party in the Greater Toronto Area.

ok, so the doesn't support your Liberal Fantasy Scenario, but it is discussion on polls.

In Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the Conservatives are at 57 per cent, and the NDP is a distant second at 25 per cent.

Conclusion: Harper's had a very good summer, and Iggy has had a very bad one. These numbers also reflect voters' displeasure with Ignatieff's election brinkmanship in June, and their unease with his bio. It's not that he's a blank page, he just hasn't filled it out.

It's been a torturous summer for the LPC leader...

[Mr.Canada]

Unless the polls are telling us the benefits of having gay married people or importing honor killers are really just as Canadian as hockey then they are bad pollsters. Right dobbins?

[madmax]

now please set this "Canadian Political Polls" thread back on it's proper course - one that continues to show Liberals with prominent leads in seat rich Ontario/Quebec and one that shows the polling irrelevance of the NDP. Thanks in advance.

And since you asked.. here is the Crop Poll for Quebec.

A new CROP poll of 1,000 in Quebec just came out in La Presse:

BQ - 31% (unchanged)

Libs - 30% (down 4 from June)

NDP - 18% (up one point! - June was no fluke)

CPC - 17% (up 4 from June

not going to get your fantasy poll in Quebec either.

[madmax]

Unless the polls are telling us the benefits of having gay married people or importing honor killers are really just as Canadian as hockey then they are bad pollsters. Right dobbins?

Are Conservatives kicking people out of the asylum again?

[punked]

And since you asked.. here is the Crop Poll for Quebec.

not going to get your fantasy poll in Quebec either.

No way if that poll is correct the NDP and Cons are eating the Bloc vote the Liberals will be the next government. Seriously the Bloc needs to leads the Liberals by 10 points in hopes of shutting them out. Wow. Close.

[Mr.Canada]

Are Conservatives kicking people out of the asylum again?

Lol, I actually laughed when I read this causing people to give me some bizarre looks...none the less. That was a good one

[jdobbin]

It's been a torturous summer for the LPC leader...

Certainly the focus has been on the Ipsos poll as if it is an indication of a upcoming Tory majority.

[jdobbin]

Unless the polls are telling us the benefits of having gay married people or importing honor killers are really just as Canadian as hockey then they are bad pollsters. Right dobbins?

Which polls are those? Your homophobia notwithstanding, the polls don't show the intolerance that you have for gay people.

[jdobbin]

And since you asked.. here is the Crop Poll for Quebec.

not going to get your fantasy poll in Quebec either.

I never underestimate the Bloc.

However, as Chantal Hebert's column in the last week has indicated, there is some room to maneuver for federalist parties and the monkey is off the back with Dion's departure. His association with the Clarity Act gave the party no help in the province.

For the country to get out of the situation it is in, we need federalist to continue to eat away at Bloc support.

[madmax]

Certainly the focus has been on the Ipsos poll as if it is an indication of a upcoming Tory majority.

You know I was joking.... That the tongue was in cheek.. double check.

Actually the poll that is being trotted out the most, is the most out of line with all the other polls. Its whacked. But its great fodder if you are CPC and want to scare off the LPC on a fall election.

The Apologist for the CPC in the media who wanted the 08 election, don't look like they want one in 09.

This is a bad poll and is the one to be tossed out.

[madmax]

For the country to get out of the situation it is in, we need federalist to continue to eat away at Bloc support.

YES

[punked]

EKOS poll out today shows the IR poll to be wrong however it still isn't bad news from Cons.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/domesticNews...E57Q32H20090827

An Ekos poll showed the Conservatives at 32.6 percent of decided voters and the Liberals at 30.9 percent, roughly the same as a week earlier. The two parties tied at 37 percent in Ontario, Canada's most populous province.......

The leftist New Democrats have 15.7 percent in the Ekos poll, the Greens, which have no seats, are at 11.3 percent and the separatist Bloc Quebecois at 9.5 percent.

The automated telephone survey of 2,153 voters was conducted from August 19-25. It should give a margin of error of 2.1 percentage points 19 times out of 20.

[madmax]

Here is the Angus Reid.

Con 34% (+1)

Lib 30% (-4)

NDP 18% (+2)

BQ 8% (-2)

Tories have 4 point lead

OTTAWA — Over the summer Canadians warmed up to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservative party, according to the latest Toronto Star/Angus Reid poll.

However, regional disparities continue to be story as the Conservatives struggle to get anywhere near majority territory of about 40 per cent.

The survey conducted Aug. 25 and 26, shows that 34 per cent of decided voters — up 1 percentage point from July — would vote for the Conservatives compared to 30 per cent for the Liberals, down 4 percentage points since July.

[jdobbin]

The survey conducted Aug. 25 and 26, shows that 34 per cent of decided voters — up 1 percentage point from July — would vote for the Conservatives compared to 30 per cent for the Liberals, down 4 percentage points since July.

Overall not much change when measured against the other polls.

We'll see what happens when Parliament resumes. I don't anyone breaking away.

[Dave_ON]

Here is the Angus Reid.

Con 34% (+1)

Lib 30% (-4)

NDP 18% (+2)

BQ 8% (-2)

Tories have 4 point lead

OTTAWA — Over the summer Canadians warmed up to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservative party, according to the latest Toronto Star/Angus Reid poll.

However, regional disparities continue to be story as the Conservatives struggle to get anywhere near majority territory of about 40 per cent.

The survey conducted Aug. 25 and 26, shows that 34 per cent of decided voters — up 1 percentage point from July — would vote for the Conservatives compared to 30 per cent for the Liberals, down 4 percentage points since July.

This isn't as much of a lead as the article implies.

The survey of 1,003 adult Canadians, conducted Aug. 25 and 26, has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 per cent 19 times out of 20.

Sure they have a 4 point lead but when you consider a margin of error of 3.1% that lead isn't so impressive. This is really more of the same as what we've seen. The LPC staying at about 30 percent and the CPC hovering a little higher then the 32 percent mark.

[punked]

This isn't as much of a lead as the article implies.

It is when you look and see them Tied in Ontario.