Harper Wins...

[Galahad]

A few observations:

1/Wow! There are a whole lot more people who think that Harper is bad news than I was led to believe. It's stunning that an absolute neophyte, with hardly any platform, can jump into the race & in a few weeks garner SO many votes. Those Belinda votes weren't FOR Belinda...they were AGAINST Harper.

2/Why is the man who had to read his bloody speech known as a brainiac? He had 5 months to memorize a few stirring lines.

3/It sure didn't take him long to get down & dirty. A few jabs at the Liberals were called for in his speech...but a 10 minute rant on Paul Martin? Not kosher.

4/Is he trying to take a page out of Bush's book with the "God bless Canada" ending? What's he planning to do? Invade somewhere with our one helicopter?

5/Pretty damned caucasian convention there. I saw one Indian fellow in the audience. Were the rest of the non white people hiding? If not...don't even THINK about getting elected. Canada isn't a British outpost anymore.

What are your thoughts?

[willy]

Galahad, can you work for the Liberal party in the next election? As a Conservative I would appreciate you on their team.

Harper will help lead a strong team. Belinda for her lack of polish will be a valuable asset to the party as maybe Minister of Industry. Tony is strong on policy and will benefit the team as maybe the next Health Minister.

Harper and his young team will out pace Martin to a victory. Get use to seeing things not go your way, but don’t worry it will be for the better.

[August1991]

The voting turn out was 37% of the some 250,000 registered party members. Am I wrong in thinking this is low?

Will the tabulation of the second choices be made public?

[willy]

Yes it was low.

No the 2nd ballet won't be made public.

Rumor in the party is that Tony would have done well on the second ballet.

The proportional voting system seems to be part of the reason some western voters didn't participate.

The voters list turned out to be better than I thought.

[Kiraly]

Pretty damned caucasian convention there. I saw one Indian fellow in the audience. Were the rest of the non white people hiding? If not...don't even THINK about getting elected. Canada isn't a British outpost anymore.

What are your thoughts?

I won't tell you my thoughts, but I will direct you to those of someone you undoubtedly respect:

http://www.warrenkinsella.com/musings.htm

Stephen Harper...now has the most ethnically diverse (and youthful) caucus in the House of Commons.

[Sarah]

Lets just hope the Conservatives become our new government. It really is time for the old liberals to move on out and take their corruption with them...

It's probably all liberals out protesting today as well...they like the idea of some monster killing innocent babies and people, just as long as its not their own...

[joseph13]

Corruption-There was none worse than the Conservatives in Ontario-Remember that and how they got Flung out on their Backsides on Election Day!--Tony Clement was part of that Regime--We don't need that again-Especially-Federally--Big Mistake--They will knock society backwards 30 years-selling off Health Care-filling their Rich Friends pockets with Consulting Fees-and giving Corporations Corporate Wellfare well the rest of Suffers their Scourge under the guise --we need to tighten our financial belts-and yet they not Practising what they preach-True Hypocrisy-Have a Giant Party on our Money-The Public Purse--Wake Up!-Look back at Ontario-They were Despised-And still are!--They di nothing for the betterment of Society or the People!~Teh Conservatives should have been left to go Extinct-They were heading there-Then they were given a last sudden Defiberlation by the Western Red Neck Party-Shocked back to life--They should have Let them Die in Peace!------Joseph13--Thanks

[joseph13]

Conservatives-If they came to power-You would be sorry-Like we were in Ontario--You would only have-Old,Old School Politics-Because thats what they are-Old Cronies-In there Party-Red Neckish--Hiding Behind a Young Face---Harper---Look at it"s Members-Political Dinosaurs---Has Beens and Hacks----That should be eneough to scare the Hell right out of you-We need new Modern Thinking Politicians-Forward Thinking not A young Guy Like Harper-With a Bunch of Old Geezers and Old Ideas and Thinking behind him!--We don't Want That in Canada!--Remember Brian Macaroni--Free Trade-How we were sold out-How things changed in Canada-Job Losses-The same mentality is in the The Reform Party-Conservaties-We don't need the Destruction of Canada by there hands-Thats all they"ll do-They have never ever been in office-They want to take us back in time not forward-with new Ideas and in new directions-They will Destroy our Country---Thanks---Joseph13

[theWatcher]

I have a few different thoughts after seeing the events yesterday.

We have just witnessed two very different leadership battles in the top two parties.

One was unnecessary, divisive, and pointless and resulted in a party with only one attribute, its leader. Right now the Liberals are the embodiment of a single man, Paul Martin. He ruthlessly crushed and discarded anyone who dared to even raise an eyebrow against him. He deposed his party leader in a very long dragged out bloody coup. He will be campaigning as the Paul Martin Party as the opposition to the Liberals. He surrounded himself with a bunch of yes men cronies that will help him very little if at all.

The other party completed a hard fought campaign. Some of the brighter lights who were reluctant to contest the job must be kicking themselves today in light of the current events. No one was deposed; no one stepped on squished and discarded. They have built a team, and a very good one at that. They finished the contest united, not divided, came together, not torn apart.

Yes the party is more, much more than the leader. Stephen Harper, Peter Mackay, Tony Clement, Belinda Stronach, Stockwell Day, Diane Ablonczy, Garry Breitkreuz, the list goes on and on. We have built a team. A team that is better by far then any of its rivals.

Look at all the young talented MP’s in the party now. Our leader is 44 years old and the core group is that age or younger. We have well experienced senior MP’s as well, sadly, some of them are leaving, but I hope they are able to mentor our members in some fashion. Grant, Deborah, Elsie and others have so much experience to offer, they will be missed.

A year ago no one in the country could have predicted this. You could not write a better script. There is still very much work ahead of us but you can see all of the pieces of the puzzle fitting into place. The opposition’s main job is to prove that they are a government in waiting ready to take over if the people decide that the current government is not able to govern effectively. And that’s why having such a strong team will be very important.

The Liberals are still very strong. But that strength is concentrated all on one person. If he fails their decline will be quick and absolute and ironic. The same rules that the Liberals have designed to keep their power could very well be used against them if they fall. New party rules pays the party annually for every vote they receive. If their votes drop so does their funding.

So I think there was at least one thing that many Canadians found yesterday, and it has been lost for a long long time.

Hope.

[Galahad]

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts? Shut the hell up you idiot. What absolute bullshit.

1. Belinda had a lot of appeal. She earned all of her votes.

2. You try to memorize a 20 minute speech. He didn't "read it", he had notes.

3. ...The Liberals are our opponents...

4. Is being patriotic a crime now a days? We would have more than 1 helicopter if we were in government.

5. I saw hundreds of non-Caucasian individuals. East Indians, Asians, African-Canadians. This is a pan-Canadian party, multi-cultural party.

Invest in a pair of glasses.

1/ And exactly WHAT was Belinda's appeal? I find my friend's Yorkie damned appealing, but I wouldn't vote for it.

2/So Stephen hasn't got the mental stamina of Charles Bronson ,Pamela Anderson and every waiter in Vancouver who is an actor wannabe?

3/My point exactly...the LIBERALS. The uncalled for rants against Paul Martin personally were tacky. "Criticize a man's policies...never the man". But then Harper is no intellect like Trudeau...so I guess he just doesn't get that one.

4/ No I'm all for patriotism...I love the Yanks because of theirs. But couldn't he come up with something new instead of stealing Bush's signature ending? Isn't he the "bright" one?

5/I was watching CBC. They must have been avoiding filming those Indians Asian & African folks you mentioned. You know how the CBC is! They ABHOR bringing multi-culturalism to the forefront.

[Galahad]

Harper and his young team will out pace Martin to a victory. Get use to seeing things not go your way, but don’t worry it will be for the better.

Sorry...wishful thinking on your part.

Harper has backstabbed his way to the top of this party...but I don't believe he'll be able to backstab to the very top job.

But hell...at least you guys didn't vote in Belinda!

[Galahad]

The voting turn out was 37% of the some 250,000 registered party members. Am I wrong in thinking this is low?

They said on CBC yesterday that Conservatives traditionally have a very low turnout.

I don't understand why someone would go to the trouble of taking out a membership in a party & not bother to vote once every few years.

Ah...maybe they don't KNOW they have a membership. Hmmm..those nice young fellows who knocked on the door a few years ago & translated a few things then had them sign some paper...NOW it all comes back.

What OTHER possible scenario can you think of that would result in such a low turnout?

[Galahad]

It's probably all liberals out protesting today as well...they like the idea of some monster killing innocent babies and people, just as long as its not their own...

Not dis Liberal!

Go Bush! Get 'em!

[Galahad]

The other party completed a hard fought campaign. Some of the brighter lights who were reluctant to contest the job must be kicking themselves today in light of the current events. No one was deposed; no one stepped on squished and discarded. They have built a team, and a very good one at that. They finished the contest united, not divided, came together, not torn apart.

How about Preston Manning?

Harper stabbed the best politician that this country has seen in decades in the back so many times that I'm surprised that he still has any knives left in his kitchen drawer to eat dinner with.

He got what he wanted over several corpses. Those types don't last long, because they just don't know when to stop stabbing...this is going to be fun to watch.

Maybe Stock will actually decide to speak up at last.

[sir_springer]

Get past the inuendo and tell us just exactly when did Harper "backstab" Preston Manning?

In his own words, Harper left politics in 1997 primarily because of his very young family.

Yes, he did not agree with Manning on everything.

As he said, Manning strayed from policy to get wrapped up in process.

I agree.

And today, Harper is the leader of a united conservative party...and Preston Manning isn't. Nor is Stock Day.

No offense to either of them; I was an ardent fan of both of them, and still am.

But neither could hold a candle, frankly speaking, to Harper's street smarts, savvy, and political accumen.

It's not hard to tell from where you are coming.

You're a hardline Reformer who can't get past his remorse for what appears to be the death of an ideal.

So you need someone to blame.

And Harper is handy, particularly in light of his successes where both Manning and Day failed.

It was Manning who birthed the United Alternative and Canadian Alliance for the sake of unity.

It was Harper who delivered.

And don't kid yourself. Harper has not forgotten from whence he came.

Get past your sour grapes, pal. This thing is going with or without you. Your choice.

[Galahad]

Get past the inuendo and tell us just exactly when did Harper "backstab" Preston Manning?

Read Manning's book..."Think Big". The only times Harper gets a mention is when he's doing something to stab Preston in the back.

Stockwell has not uttered a peep since he left office, it's my suspicion (after seeing Harper's vengence with his last leader) that Harper has shut him up. We'll find out in the end when Stock no longer needs his job. Retirement will open him up I'm sure.

I'm not a hardline Reformer...I just happen to like leaders with vision & intelligence. Preston had both. Harper has neither. Why do you think none of the leading ( ie Mike, Ralph, Preston, Brian) conservatives have lined up behind him? I'm sure the Conservatives will get back on track in the future...but it won't be with that snake at the helm. He'll stab himself in the back eventually.

You'll see.

Get past your sour grapes, pal. This thing is going with or without you. Your choice.

If the Lord, Manning, Klein, Harris, Mulroney et al are game, I'll think about it.

[willy]

Read Preston's book again. Before you quote something you should get it right. Preston gave him credit for being as I quote "a brilliant strategist."

Harper and Anderson the other strategist didn't see eye to eye. That happens.

Harper has also grown in the last twelve years. He started out a strategist and is growing into a leader.

As for Stockwell, Preston had a lot more to say about him. The whole party shut him down.

Before we look for Mike, and Brian’s support be sure you want it. The Harris government was just kick out of office and the west still hates Brian.

As a national leader he would not want Ralph’s support either as he would risk reinforcing the perception that he is Alberta first.

Galahad your judgment is proving questionable. This board is hard to spin on as most people here seem to pay attention. Stick to the truth.

[Galahad]

Read Preston's book again. Before you quote something you should get it right. Preston gave him credit for being as I quote "a brilliant strategist."

Harper and Anderson the other strategist didn't see eye to eye. That happens.

Harper has also grown in the last twelve years. He started out a strategist and is growing into a leader.

As for Stockwell, Preston had a lot more to say about him. The whole party shut him down.

Before we look for Mike, and Brian’s support be sure you want it. The Harris government was just kick out of office and the west still hates Brian.

As a national leader he would not want Ralph’s support either as he would risk reinforcing the perception that he is Alberta first.

Galahad your judgment is proving questionable. This board is hard to spin on as most people here seem to pay attention. Stick to the truth.

Machiavelli was a brilliant strategist. Hitler & Rommel were too.

That's not a quality that impresses me in a politician, and if you are aware of Preston's thought process you can see that he was damning him with faint praise by saying that.

As for your observations about my judgement...blind loyalty to Harper has me questioning your & others' judgement myself. It works both ways kiddo.

PS: Have read "the book" several times...had it personally signed by Preston at a meeting & it is a prized possession.

PPS: Marrying Ralph couldn't make Firewall Harper look "more" like he is an Alberta first man than he already

does.

Which reminds me of what Barbara Yaffe told me today. Said she: "Galahed, as Alberta Premier Ralph Klein delivered a rambling but entertaining keynote address to the convention Saturday, members who were listening must surely have been wondering what might have been had Canada's most endearing Conservative had taken the plunge." I sighed.

Harper would not want Ralph's support? In a pig's eye.

[willy]

Thanks for the condescension Galahad always an effective argument.

Why am I blind if I don’t agree? I obviously support Harper, his knowledge of policy, and how he would like to apply it.

I do like a politician who is a great strategist. This alone is the thing that can get them elected. A bright person with a good idea has to be able to share it. This is where strategy is necessary.

My copy of Preston book is signed as well. Signed books tell the same story.

“if you are aware of Preston's thought process you can see that he was damning him with faint praise by saying that.”

I don’t think Preston would dam anyone not even Stockwell.

I guess I should read praise more carefully.

When he criticized Harper for not working well with others and being arrogant was that then praise?

[Galahad]

Why am I blind if I don’t agree? I obviously support Harper, his knowledge of policy, and how he would like to apply it.

No. But am I 'lacking in judgement' if I don't support Harper the Harpoon? I like most of his policies too...the ones he cribbed from Preston...I just don't think he's the man to implement them. I like a leader with a moral backbone.

I do like a politician who is a great strategist. This alone is the thing that can get them elected. A bright person with a good idea has to be able to share it. This is where strategy is necessary.

Then you must have ADORED Jean Chretien.

BTW - I wonder what kind of "strategic" maneuver Harper's playing by making the biggest traitor to many a Progresive Conservative party member his second in command? Is that Stephen's idea of "building bridges"? Or is he planning to continue using Peter MacKay in this department? I feel sorry for them both .... what weasels.

My copy of Preston book is signed as well. Signed books tell the same story.

A story is half the author & half the reader.

BTW - Mine was signed in person. With a hand shake & a pat on the back. Yours?

I don’t think Preston would dam anyone not even Stockwell. I guess I should read praise more carefully.

When he criticized Harper for not working well with others and being arrogant was that then praise?

Sorry, I seem to have gotten you all religious there. I meant "damn" in the colloquial sense that we use it, not the religious.

Preston had a few bad things to say about Harper...what I was saying about his calling him a brilliant strategist was that it was not meant to be "praise" as you took it. It's sort of like saying "So & so's a fabulous liar". High praise indeed.

[willy]

Galahad,

This will be my last post on this topic. This isn't going anywhere but to the old "I know you are but what am I."

Chrétien was a great strategist. He would have to be with his limited communication skills. I do admire him for his talents and I try to learn what I can from anyone who is successful.

It is what he did with those talents that offends me.

Politics shouldn't be personal attacks, it should be about ideas. This I learned from Trudeau, and I don't agree with much that he did.

Question how do you think I got a signed copy of Preston book if he didn't do it in person? He is a great man who changed the political landscape, and I hope his legacy has changed the Conservative Party forever.

[Galahad]

Galahad, This will be my last post on this topic. This isn't going anywhere but to the old "I know you are but what am I."

Well thanks for the debate Willy. You're right ... we've arrived at a standoff.

Chrétien was a great strategist. He would have to be with his limited communication skills. I do admire him for his talents and I try to learn what I can from anyone who is successful. It is what he did with those talents that offends me.

What we usually see in politicians are one group, the idealists, who have great ideas & spend all of their energies thinking about how to improve Canada. The other group are great strategists & expend all of their energies on getting to the top & then staying there.

Not many people have the resources to be able to do both. Preston was the former type, Chretien & Harper the latter.

Politics shouldn't be personal attacks, it should be about ideas. This I learned from Trudeau, and I don't agree with much that he did.

.

Agreed. And once again I see Harper shouting about "Paul Martin" in his acceptance speech. It should have been "the Liberals". But strategists would disagree on that point.

He is a great man who changed the political landscape, and I hope his legacy has changed the Conservative Party forever.

Preston Manning changed not only the CP, but the Liberals & Provincial politicians as well. He was head & shoulders above his peers. Sorry, but I can't see Harper doing that ... so far I've heard not one new idea out of him. But I realize that he's too busy ... strategizing.

[Sarah]

[quote=joseph13,Mar 21 2004, 06:54 AMConservatives-If they came to power-You would be sorry-Like we were in Ontario--You would only have-Old,Old School Politics-"

Dear Joseph,

I would first of all like to thank you for your endeavour to persuade me that the Conservatives are “Old,Old School Politics”... I would also encourage you to understand what democracy is...a farce! But, sadly to say, it’s all we have...the real term is “mob voting.” How many of your friends and acquaintances know what the Government is? Are they there to hand you out money when you have not earned it, or fix your business problems? No!

I would like to ask one question of you Joseph, if you invented toilet paper and the Government added BIG taxes to your invention, what would, you do? AND

if you took your invention away from the consumer, what would they do? Can you imagine a society today without toilet paper? Then there is the light bulb! What if Edison said it’s too expensive to sell to Canada? We would surely be in the dark, would we not?

You see Joseph, the Conservatives are not about handing out freebies, but protecting the taxpayers who

PRODUCE these privileges to the Canadian market.

I certainly agree we need help for the underprivileged and those who are sick and at risk...but we also need to educate are young people today, that welfare is not the route one needs to depend on when times are tough...the real route is jobs and investment in our economy. The Liberals are not the way to go...as we have well seen. I doubt anyone in a union would agree with me and "go figure!"

Thanks again for your response and I guess we will agree to disagree.

[hiti]

"Stephen has never been a populist," according to Deb Grey

"Preston Manning and Stephen Harper share a fiscal conservatism but one area where Harper's Canadian Alliance is likely to differ from Manning's Reform Party is on grass roots democracy. While Manning would push for asking ordinary people and rank-and-file members what they thought, Harper, as someone responsible for drafting party policy, would often resent this."

And it seems he believes in ideological purity, not unlike some fascist dictators eh?

"Some Reform insiders felt that Harper wanted to keep to too narrow an ideological base, that he was only interested in an ideologically pure minority party rather than focusing on becoming a government someday."

And talk about Harper, not believing in smear tactics, it appears to be erroneous too!

"The 1993 election, the Reform Party had voted to mount a national campaign but for Harper the prospects east of Alberta were dim and he favored focusing the party's efforts on Alberta and BC. The tension between Harper and Manning increased when Anderson, who had national campaign experience, was appointed the 1993 election campaign director. Harper opposed that decision and resigned from the national campaign organization.

Harper concentrated on getting himself elected in Calgary West, again running against Jim Hawkes. During the campaign the National Citizens' Coalition spent more than $50,000 on ads attacking Hawkes because, as NCC president David Somerville said at the time, Hawkes had played a leading role in getting the government to pass a law limiting third-party spending during elections."

But wait, he also stabbed Manning in the back! As follows:

"As in 1994, for instance, when it became public that Manning and his family were receiving secret financial assistance from the party. This was an area of policy in which Harper had considerable backing within the caucus. Manning had nominated Elwin Hermanson to be Reform's representative on the House of Commons' Board of Internal Economy, which dealt with pay and perks issues, but the caucus chose Harper instead. And the caucus was already on record opposing non-receiptable allowances for MPs. So when the story leaked to the media that the Mannings were receiving a $43,000 expense allowance for which they did not need to provide receipts, Harper spoke out. Harper told the Calgary Sun that the arrangement "undercuts our ability to forcefully and credibly articulate the positions we've taken on some of these pay and perks issues…. The whole idea of non-accountable expenses is not acceptable," he told the paper. That same day the key committee of the party's executive council made public a four-page memo condemning Harper. "We are appalled to read headlines such as 'Reform MP (Stephen Harper) Blasts Boss Over Perks' (Calgary Sun, April 6/94). The article indicates that Mr. Harper is misinformed on how the Leader's accountability for expenses is handled."

Of course, along with Harper's ideological purest ideas he is also a an ideologue, who feels he is the only "right" one. Sheesh how did he get to where he is, perhaps it's his and his father's ties to Imperial Oil, subsidiary of Xxon?

During his stint as an MP, Harper was becoming something of a lone-wolf in the Reform caucus. According to a caucus member, "he was not a team player and if he couldn't carry the day on something his tendency would always be to withdraw."

"in a 1998 essay, Harper and Tom Flanagan argued that "a working alliance of separate regional parties, rather than a unitary national party, is the most desirable and attainable goal." In their view, "conservatives will make more progress towards their goals by working to influence public opinion and a pliable Liberal party than by expecting to take direct control of the federal government." So Reform should play an "'NDP of the right' role," as they described it. As long as Reform maintained its "commitment to populism," they believed the party had "severe" limitations."

As Harper was around to draft reform policies in the very beginning: "In 1992 NCC President David Somerville was quoted as saying, "The Reform party has cribbed probably two-thirds of our policy book."

And in conclusion he apparently does not give a "fig" about anyone else.

MP Deborah Grey sees Harper as "a pure ideologue, for sure." She described Harper's lone-wolf character this way to The Toronto Star's Tonda McCharles:

"Stephen will do what Stephen will do... He'll go along with you while you're going along with him and then he'll make an executive decision, and it probably won't matter a sweet fig what you think."

So here we stand, with Harper doing a hostile type takeover of the PC in my opinion and others, and he likes American politics et al, has links to Bildberg, and his personal profile reads like that of most totalitarian leaders, or should I say dictators?

(Quotes from this posting came from the Globe and Mail, the Toronto star, and straight from the CA website.)

Talk about worms turning, not just MacKay but Harper too. Boy our country will be well served by a union of these 2 eh?