Role of Welfare

[Renegade]

A new report has been released on the state of welfare in Canada: WELFARE INCOMES, 2006 AND 2007

An exerpt from the Toronto Star Artcle: Hardship of welfare getting harder

Welfare incomes in Canada are increasingly inadequate to meet basic needs, according to a report to be released today in Toronto, with Ontario seeing the harshest loss over the past two decades.

In 2007 dollar terms in Ontario, between 1992 and 2007, a lone parent's welfare declined by almost $5,500, or 25 per cent, from $21,931. A couple with two children saw a loss of almost $8,150 (or 28 per cent, from $29,207), says the report.

"When we do not grant even the basics needed for survival, how then can we honestly criticize the recipients of such assistance for lack of effort or decry behaviours that offer relief from such a miserable existence?" says the report by the National Council of Welfare.

Payouts for most of Canada's 1.7 million adults and children on welfare have dropped dramatically over the past 20 years and fall well below the poverty line, says the report, which looked at provincial and federal assistance for those on welfare from 1986 to 2007

There seem to be underlying premis on the role of the welfare system which I'm not sure I agree with.

Is welfare:

1. A temporary form of income support?
   
2. A way to ensure people's basic needs are met (ie food, clothing, shelter)?
   
3. A system to eliminate poverty?
   
4. A system to appease those who lack so that they don't cause social unrest?
   
5. Something else?
   

[Oleg Bach]

The criterium will change once the U I runs out and we have half a million marching down to the local welfare office - including you perhaps....look around my dear friend - your turn at the dole may not be that far off..

[Smallc]

[*]A way to ensure people's basic needs are met (ie food, clothing, shelter)?

From the way I have always looked at it, this should be its primary use. It seems that's what it is, but I think it should be harder for able bodied people to get when there are jobs available.

[M.Dancer]

Is welfare:

1. A temporary form of income support?
   
2. A way to ensure people's basic needs are met (ie food, clothing, shelter)?
   

A stop gap for those whose luck ran out (#1)

and a safety net for those incapable of taking care of themselves and have no one who can take care of them. (#2)

[blueblood]

The criterium will change once the U I runs out and we have half a million marching down to the local welfare office - including you perhaps....look around my dear friend - your turn at the dole may not be that far off..

What are you talking about, it is impossible for me to get Welfare.

[Topaz]

The future of welfare clients are going to come from those whose EI ran out. Now in Ontario, we get $4000 less and that's not right when its the workers money which are paying to help themselves when unemploy comes to them and that $4000 could help them from seeking welfare.

[Drea]

What are you talking about, it is impossible for me to get Welfare.

Why would you want to?

Truly, the most humbling thing a successful person facing difficult times has to do is go into that welfare office. I had to. Man it sucked. College educated, job experienced, yet when I got pregnant I had no other choice. What a humbling experience. I don't look down on those on welfare, I wonder what circumstances in their lives brought them to that level.

Tis sad that we need a welfare system at all but alas not all people are successful all the time. I would rather "waste" a few tax dollars and know that if the shit hits the fan again in my life, there is a net (a thin one albeit) to catch me.

[blueblood]

Why would you want to?

Truly, the most humbling thing a successful person facing difficult times has to do is go into that welfare office. I had to. Man it sucked. College educated, job experienced, yet when I got pregnant I had no other choice. What a humbling experience. I don't look down on those on welfare, I wonder what circumstances in their lives brought them to that level.

Tis sad that we need a welfare system at all but alas not all people are successful all the time. I would rather "waste" a few tax dollars and know that if the shit hits the fan again in my life, there is a net (a thin one albeit) to catch me.

I was responding to the post, apparently he thinks all Canadians are going to be headed to the welfare line. I implied that as a land owner, that option is impossile for me.

[M.Dancer]

I was responding to the post, apparently he thinks all Canadians are going to be headed to the welfare line. I implied that as a land owner, that option is impossile for me.

Don't be so sure..uinless your ownership is a revenue producing parcel. Most rules in this part of the country allows even home owners to collect. I know someone who did for 6 months ( why they felt they needed welfare is another story).

[blueblood]

Don't be so sure..uinless your ownership is a revenue producing parcel. Most rules in this part of the country allows even home owners to collect. I know someone who did for 6 months ( why they felt they needed welfare is another story).

My land ownership is all revenue producing parcels. No Welfare for this cowboy.

[M.Dancer]

My land ownership is all revenue producing parcels. No Welfare for this cowboy.

Right..farmer, yes?

What if all the crops failed for 2 or 3 seasons and the insurance dried up? Would qualify for assistance?

[blueblood]

Right..farmer, yes?

What if all the crops failed for 2 or 3 seasons and the insurance dried up? Would qualify for assistance?

MB crop insurance is insured by Lloyd's out of London England, it doesn't dry out. I could sell wood off my land, have more cows, sell gravel; so nope no assistance. I have the option of renting out the land. Other than that I take what I get. The "assistance" that is given by the gov't presently costs taxpayers too much money and doesn't amount to anything. I say scrap it. I'd have no problem with my tax dollars going to pay for taking land out of production but that's for another thread.

So not everybody can apply for EI and Welfare. Unless I start paying into EI, which would be ludicrous for me.

[guyser]

MB crop insurance is insured by Lloyd's out of London England, it doesn't dry out.

Not contradicting the gist of your post but....

It could happen, but all the stars would have to align. It is insured through a Lloyds syndicate probably operating in Canada, and that means that people have pledged assets for payment of claims.

It has happened that I am aware of, but only once.

[blueblood]

Not contradicting the gist of your post but....

It could happen, but all the stars would have to align. It is insured through a Lloyds syndicate probably operating in Canada, and that means that people have pledged assets for payment of claims.

It has happened that I am aware of, but only once.

MB Crop Insurance and my hail insurance company as far as I know had to call on Lloyd's once recently, and that was in 07 for the big hailstorm. Needless to say the insurance adjusters were very generous with their adjustments, and everyone was scratching their heads why they were so generous with their adjustments, Lloyd's to the rescue!

[guyser]

Needless to say the insurance adjusters were very generous with their adjustments, and everyone was scratching their heads why they were so generous with their adjustments, Lloyd's to the rescue!

It worked for you and thats all that matters.

From my side I get suspicious of generous adjusters. Also, dont forget , that generosity is used to establish premiums for the following third year (non avg IIRC)

[blueblood]

It worked for you and thats all that matters.

From my side I get suspicious of generous adjusters. Also, dont forget , that generosity is used to establish premiums for the following third year (non avg IIRC)

I thought they were trying to soak Lloyd's out of London, that's why. I'm perfectly aware that generosity = higher premiums. I only look at my neighbour down the road who plants his crop in June and collects crop insurance in Sept. when his crop freezes, thus screwing everybody with higher premiums (Good old gov't insurance)

[Mr.Canada]

Welfare is intended to be temp. not a perm. source of income. It's intended to not be enough and to get citizens off their backside and get to work.

[reasonoverpassion]

Welfare is intended to be temp. not a perm. source of income. It's intended to not be enough and to get citizens off their backside and get to work.

The idea that if we pay too much welfare "the lazy bums will have no incentive to work" is too simple.

People need to be helped to get off the system and it should be just temporary. For many people this is true. Sometimes the system actually works against people try to get off welfare. For example, "clawbacks" are built into many programs. This happens when as soon as someone gets a job (low paying or part time) their benefits are actually taken away. So then many people come up with the idea "Why work? The system is just going to take away what I make."

Sometimes welfare and pvoerty mask other issues that are not being addressed such as drug addiction and mental illness. These issues need to be addressed so these individuals can become self sufficient.

The diea promoted by some conservatives of the "welfare queens" is really just a myth. The vast majority of people want (on some level) to have the self esteem connected with earning a living

[blueblood]

The idea that if we pay too much welfare "the lazy bums will have no incentive to work" is too simple.

People need to be helped to get off the system and it should be just temporary. For many people this is true. Sometimes the system actually works against people try to get off welfare. For example, "clawbacks" are built into many programs. This happens when as soon as someone gets a job (low paying or part time) their benefits are actually taken away. So then many people come up with the idea "Why work? The system is just going to take away what I make."

Sometimes welfare and pvoerty mask other issues that are not being addressed such as drug addiction and mental illness. These issues need to be addressed so these individuals can become self sufficient.

The diea promoted by some conservatives of the "welfare queens" is really just a myth. The vast majority of people want (on some level) to have the self esteem connected with earning a living

Why the hell should I be punished so somebody can have free money and earn a living on the side? That gives the incentive for some people to evade taxes and do the offshore bank account deal. Why pay pay taxes and invest in Canadian banks, they are just going to throw away my money.

Drug addiction, piss on them. That's 100% preventable, why should I have to pay for their mistakes? Mental issues individuals can't really be self sufficient.

If the vast majority of people want to earn a living, why is Brad Wall rolling around Toronto advertising jobs when a large portion of his province won't work at the numerous jobs already there?

[DrGreenthumb]

Why the hell should I be punished so somebody can have free money and earn a living on the side? That gives the incentive for some people to evade taxes and do the offshore bank account deal. Why pay pay taxes and invest in Canadian banks, they are just going to throw away my money.

Drug addiction, piss on them. That's 100% preventable, why should I have to pay for their mistakes? Mental issues individuals can't really be self sufficient.

If the vast majority of people want to earn a living, why is Brad Wall rolling around Toronto advertising jobs when a large portion of his province won't work at the numerous jobs already there?

Oh get off your high horse! In manitoba, collectively farmers get way more back in "insurance" and gov't bailuouts than they collectively pay in taxes so farmers are living on other people's taxes too. When there is a "good" year farmers hide all their profits by buying land and machinery. In a bad year they collect money from the taxpayer in the forms of "disaster relief" and government crop insurance. None of the farmers I know are hurting half as bad as they like to make people think. I live in a farming community, grew up here, its always the same. The farmers are always complaining that they can't earn a living, while driving around in their brand new 4X4 truck, with their brand new 15,000 dollar snowmobile in the back. Waaa waaaaa poor me, I am a poor farmer. Most farmers I know are worth MILLIONS when you factor in the land and other assets, yet every year on their income tax return they claim to barely be breaking even or taking losses. It wouldn't surprise me that you would want to evade taxes with an offshore account, and neither does it surprise me that most farmers around here are Conservatives.

[blueblood]

Oh get off your high horse! In manitoba, collectively farmers get way more back in "insurance" and gov't bailuouts than they collectively pay in taxes so farmers are living on other people's taxes too. When there is a "good" year farmers hide all their profits by buying land and machinery. In a bad year they collect money from the taxpayer in the forms of "disaster relief" and government crop insurance. None of the farmers I know are hurting half as bad as they like to make people think. I live in a farming community, grew up here, its always the same. The farmers are always complaining that they can't earn a living, while driving around in their brand new 4X4 truck, with their brand new 15,000 dollar snowmobile in the back. Waaa waaaaa poor me, I am a poor farmer. Most farmers I know are worth MILLIONS when you factor in the land and other assets, yet every year on their income tax return they claim to barely be breaking even or taking losses. It wouldn't surprise me that you would want to evade taxes with an offshore account, and neither does it surprise me that most farmers around here are Conservatives.

Insurance, my 10+ dollar an acre crop insurance to the gov't of Manitoba that I use maybe once every ten years? Gov't bailouts? That 3-5000 dollars that I get from the feds when times are bad? In case you haven't noticed that farmers have to pay out of pocket to partly fund those programs. Then there is taxes. 2 yard sites, 2000 acres of land for property taxes. CHING!!! Sales tax on farm inputs CHING CHING CHING!!! Then there is income tax, lets not even go there. Gov't crop insurance costs a fortune, if you don't pay into it, you get ZILCH! Buying land results in having to pay property tax. Buying machinery results in having to pay sales tax and capital gains tax when you sell it. My REDNECK ASS we get more in government bailouts and gov't insurance than we pay out in tax, that has got to be the stupidest comment you have ever come up with. By the way, making those large purchases increases liquidity in banks and credit unions, and is money directly spent in the local economy, which helps everyone. If we hurt, the whole town hurts. You should really take an economics course and learn about fixed and variable costs vs. revenue. Those farmers take a huge risk by starting/continuing their business and by deciding to grow a crop every year and they get compensated for it. If you hate farmers like you do, keep your hypocrite ass out of the grocery store and grow your own food. That might mean a few dope plants might not be planted. Farmers have one of the most important jobs in the country, and are the reason that you get to enjoy cheap food at the grocery store. Going to a grocery store and running down farmers, that's hypocrisy at its finest.

It shouldn't surprise you that most farmers are conservatives, we hate being punished for succeeding, something the NDP wants to do to everyone.

Thanks to that post, I now know what being high is like, because I am stupider for having read that.

[reasonoverpassion]

Why the hell should I be punished so somebody can have free money and earn a living on the side? That gives the incentive for some people to evade taxes and do the offshore bank account deal.

We're talking about people living in poverty--they don't have access to offshore bank accounts

Drug addiction, piss on them. That's 100% preventable, why should I have to pay for their mistakes?

Guess your not a "compassionate conservative"

Mental issues individuals can't really be self sufficient.

This I disagree with-- everyone can attain a level of self sufficiency and deserves to have the pride that comes from work.

If the vast majority of people want to earn a living, why is Brad Wall rolling around Toronto advertising jobs when a large portion of his province won't work at the numerous jobs already there?

What kind of jobs are available in Saskatchewan? Heres the categories from the Sask jobs website:

Management (262)

Business, Finance & Admin (617)

Natural & Applied Sciences (341)

Health Occupations (515)

Social Science, Education & Gov't (362)

Art, Culture & Recreation (82)

Sales & Service (3496)

Trades, Transport, & Equipment Operators (1388)

Oil, Gas, Mining & Agriculture (264)

Processing, Manufacturing & Utilities (276)

Are these skills just anyone on the streets of Saskatoon has? Some are but most aren't

[madmax]

The criterium will change once the U I runs out and we have half a million marching down to the local welfare office - including you perhaps....look around my dear friend - your turn at the dole may not be that far off..

You could be correct Oleg. However, that will depend on each Province. What I think is going to happen is EI (UI for older memories) is going to be revamped. The first changes were announced yesterday, and more are coming.

"Your turn at the dole may not be that far off.."

Exactly, it is not pleasant to see when the mighty mouths have fallen, but the tune they sing changes when its them and not others.

[madmax]

From the way I have always looked at it, this should be its primary use. It seems that's what it is, but I think it should be harder for able bodied people to get when there are jobs available.

Again it is different in every province. With regards to able body people, you can either make it difficult to receive when jobs are available or difficult to stay on.

[madmax]

A stop gap for those whose luck ran out (#1)

and a safety net for those incapable of taking care of themselves and have no one who can take care of them. (#2)

Sorry to hear about your luck. Really Really sorry to hear about your luck.