Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Do you ever wonder what motivates our leadership to continue waging a war of supposed liberation...a war that will never be won by conventional military means? Do you ever wonder why our government sets a time table for withdrawl - and when it arrives we will still be back at square one with no real meaningful results? In other terms not really winning. With all war - it's always about the money. They dupe our left into believing that all Afghani men beat their wives to a pulp - and that are reasoning for being there is the classic emotional liberal line "so a little girl can go to school" _ I don't see our liberal liberators wanting to wage war on nations within the pacific rim...where forced childhood prostitution thrives and OUR deviate pedophiles go to holiday. Also as I mentioned before the offical blind eye policy of our military contraction that is the emotional liberal reasoning...seeing that boy destroying rape is to be condoned. The president of Afghanistan has clearly made a tacit agreement with the Taliban that we are to stupid to have been part of..so our installation has turned on us - should we set up a court similar to the Sadam one and hang that traitor to Canada and the US etc.? Frankly Canada does not want to leave because of greed. For instance when 10 thousand Hell Fire missiles are ordered up and peace breaks up - contractors are going to lose a lot of money. Think of the billions yet to be made from the weapons trade...if we bail out now - Harpers handlers will be really pissed off at the sudden drop in profits...it's a damned buisness for God's sake - I would say that our weapons dealers and their American counterparts have made enough money - time to pull them away from the public feeding bowl. IF they want us out we can not force them to continue with a war just because we are greedy over here. There is not threat from some goat herding bearded opium grower...take the opium and turn it into high grade pharma product and use it legitimately...forget the weapons dealing...it's old fashioned and eventually will be exposed to the great embarassment of so-called respectable people in our buisness community...enough! Quote
Alta4ever Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 (edited) So whats wrong with completing the contracts and sock piling the weapons? If we are asked to leave then its time to go. Edited November 27, 2008 by Charles Anthony deleted re-copied Opening Post Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Posted November 26, 2008 So whats wrong with completing the contracts and sock piling the weapons? If we are asked to leave then its time to go. Nothing is wrong with dealing in military supplies. Everyone in a free society should be allowed to earn a living. Even cocaine importers who contribute to our economy have the right to profit. It's all about freedom of choice right or wrong. Is it not? We have the right to be bad in this nation...not that I agree with embracing stupidity (evil) as a way of survival. If the public understood that the extended "mission" was based on contracts and not on some delluded notion of mercy...the public would not protest because just about everyone is corrupt - Corruption is the norm. BUT there are limits - once the President suggests that we leave - we go. This is not a stupid man - nor is Harper. Sometimes all good things come to an end...And you have to admit - It's not a legitimate way to make a buck - but it is age old and tried and true----stir up the common mass and have them fight while you harvest THEIR WEALTH. Buisness is usually a conspiratorial plan on how to get the money out of one pocket and into yours.. Sell the weapons if you must but at least attempt to keep the body count down. Quote
Alta4ever Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Nothing is wrong with dealing in military supplies. Everyone in a free society should be allowed to earn a living. Even cocaine importers who contribute to our economy have the right to profit. It's all about freedom of choice right or wrong. Is it not? We have the right to be bad in this nation...not that I agree with embracing stupidity (evil) as a way of survival. If the public understood that the extended "mission" was based on contracts and not on some delluded notion of mercy...the public would not protest because just about everyone is corrupt - Corruption is the norm. BUT there are limits - once the President suggests that we leave - we go. This is not a stupid man - nor is Harper. Sometimes all good things come to an end...And you have to admit - It's not a legitimate way to make a buck - but it is age old and tried and true----stir up the common mass and have them fight while you harvest THEIR WEALTH. Buisness is usually a conspiratorial plan on how to get the money out of one pocket and into yours.. Sell the weapons if you must but at least attempt to keep the body count down. Whether we like or not we live in a world where an equipped military is a necessity. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Posted November 26, 2008 Whether we like or not we live in a world where an equipped military is a necessity. I realize that. The avoidance of violence is still the way to go - but even I still have the family lead weighted club that I am skilled with that hangs on the bedroom door. If there is violence or an invasion of my household - bones will be broken...I have never had to use it and I doubt if I will but it is better to be prepared when the insane come waddling in un-invited. Quote
Alta4ever Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 I realize that. The avoidance of violence is still the way to go - but even I still have the family lead weighted club that I am skilled with that hangs on the bedroom door. If there is violence or an invasion of my household - bones will be broken...I have never had to use it and I doubt if I will but it is better to be prepared when the insane come waddling in un-invited. The way I see the military is the same, lost of posturing, but havingthe ability to back it up with action if necessary. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
eyeball Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 Whether we like or not we live in a world where an equipped military is a necessity. It sure seems that a lot of you think this is just dandy. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Alta4ever Posted November 26, 2008 Report Posted November 26, 2008 It sure seems that a lot of you think this is just dandy. Its not dandy its reality. Quote "What about the legitimacy of the democratic process, yeah, what about it?" Jack Layton and his coup against the people of Canada “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help.’” President Ronald Reagan
Oleg Bach Posted November 26, 2008 Author Report Posted November 26, 2008 Most people live in finacial and phiscial fear - I don't but most do - personally if you can not handle an advesary with the mind and spirit - you are a loser...most are losers and that is not dandy - it's pitiful. I would like to see the head of Iran and the out going American president have a fist fight - but both are cowards..you know that. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Do you ever wonder what motivates our leadership to continue waging a war of supposed liberation...a war that will never be won by conventional military means? Do you ever wonder why our government sets a time table for withdrawl - and when it arrives we will still be back at square one with no real meaningful results? In other terms not really winning. With all war - it's always about the money. They dupe our left into believing that all Afghani men beat their wives to a pulp - and that are reasoning for being there is the classic emotional liberal line "so a little girl can go to school" _ It is nice when we can piont the finger at a certain group and shout "you are to blame for all this", it was your idea, your lack of planning, your mismangement yada yada yada....It's human nature , we need someone to blame our wrongs on, if not our government then the Americans.... One day i hope that Canadians will be able shoulder thier own responsabilty, and own up to thier wrongs.... But lets take a look at this mission, at the start the Majority of Canadians were supporting it, it was a noble cause, finally a mission that could not be blamed on oil, or other needed resources, but a humanitary mission that all Canadians could stand behind....that most of the world stood behind....troops and equipment poured in Afgan, along with large bags of cash.....Soon we where finding out that the Afgan people are not perfect, coruption runs rampat, thier values and morals do not match ours to a T....thier poor, uneduacated....And instead of digging in to help them over come these issues our support begins to dwindle....to the piont now where a majority of Canadians no longer support helping these people who have not changed over night, but instead are the same as the day we agreed to help them....And now troops and equipment are slowed to a trickle, and the cash...has almost stopped.... I keep hearing that this conflict can not by won by conventional means, this coming from whom ? military experts, someone schooled in military sciences....The military has been giving you the answers, they give them to the media daily....WE NEED MORE TROOPS....and we quickly turn the page or change the channel...What do they know we mutter....Afgan is old news we want a change.... Yes our government does have to shoulder alot of this missions failures....but they are politions interested in keeping thier jobs....and really memic what the general public wants to hear....What do you think would happen if Mr Harper decided he was doubling or tripling our troop strength in Afgan tommorow....would he find himself in another election, i'd bet alot of good money he would....So the majority has his hands tied ...that majority is you and others like you....time to take your share of the blame.... PM Karzai is frustrated and so are the people of Afgan, that it is taking so long to finish the fight with the taliban and insurgents, and yet most western nations are giving as mush as thier public can bear, as the mission is not only unpopular here in Canada but world wide....what we are giving is just not enough....With a new US pres it is time to stop making Afgan our hobby, and start making this our priority....and get the job done.....I've said this a million times already....it does not matter how well our forces do on the battle field....it all hinges on support we recieve back home...support for the mission....with out it this mission will end in failure....and when we decide to record that in our history books....i hope the blame is distributed to all that have contributed to it's failure.... Visit My Website Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
cybercoma Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 PM Karzai is frustrated and so are the people of Afgan, that it is taking so long to finish the fight with the taliban and insurgents, and yet most western nations are giving as mush as thier public can bear, as the mission is not only unpopular here in Canada but world wide....what we are giving is just not enough....With a new US pres it is time to stop making Afgan our hobby, and start making this our priority....and get the job done.....I've said this a million times already....it does not matter how well our forces do on the battle field....it all hinges on support we recieve back home...support for the mission....with out it this mission will end in failure....and when we decide to record that in our history books....i hope the blame is distributed to all that have contributed to it's failure....Visit My Website Thank God you post here. The Afghan mission will be over when the Afghan people are capable of defending their own country and not a moment sooner. That can't happen until there is more support to stop those who are trying to destabilize the region. Once the insurgency has been quelled, the government corruption needs to be cleaned up, then the people need to be educated. After all of those conditions have been met, maybe then an Afghan Army can be properly trained to defend the country against any further uprising against the democratically elected institutions they have now. Anyone that thinks all the troops will be yanked by 2011 is only fooling themselves. There is a lot of work to be done and it all starts with further NATO support or UN involvement to assist our troops. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 PM Karzai is frustrated and so are the people of Afgan, that it is taking so long to finish the fight with the taliban and insurgents, and yet most western nations are giving as mush as thier public can bear, as the mission is not only unpopular here in Canada but world wide....what we are giving is just not enough....With a new US pres it is time to stop making Afgan our hobby, and start making this our priority....and get the job done.....I've said this a million times already....it does not matter how well our forces do on the battle field....it all hinges on support we recieve back home...support for the mission....with out it this mission will end in failure....and when we decide to record that in our history books....i hope the blame is distributed to all that have contributed to it's failure....Visit My Website Which proves that such military interventions are expensive and innefective means to solve the problem. this has been the case in the history of Afghanistan. PN Karzai and his people are frustrated it is taking so long... not really they are used to it for at least 150 years, they know it will actually take forever to solve the regions problems. But look, a few talks with the taliban and the situation could immediately change, without a single cruise missile being fired. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I think Karzai's request is reasonable. Rather than saying he wants the ASAF to vacate, he is asking them to, instead of fighting a holding action against the TAliban which could go one forever and which in the end would force him to begin some undetermined move towards talks with the Taleban, he is asking the ISAF to win. I think defeating, crushing, exterminating and anniliating the Taleban to the last man is the only prudent option and it should be done in 5 years or less. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Which proves that such military interventions are expensive and innefective means to solve the problem. this has been the case in the history of Afghanistan. PN Karzai and his people are frustrated it is taking so long... not really they are used to it for at least 150 years, they know it will actually take forever to solve the regions problems. But look, a few talks with the taliban and the situation could immediately change, without a single cruise missile being fired. Give me a break, Canadians have prided themselfs on our peacekeeping efforts for over 50 years, which are military interventions....which have seen Canadian soldiers in combat on many occasions, our peacekeeping memorial has the names of those that have perished in those efforts. So this is nothing new to the Canadian people, they knew that fact before they decided to send us over there... The Afgan people saw NATO as a knight in shinning armour, what other organization could effectivly bring peace to this nation...we gave them hope....And now with this mission going on for more than 7 years, one of the main reasons is it is not a popular war, and therefore not recieving the attention it deserves....we agreed to help, we agreed to give them security....we need to keep our promise... As for talks with the taliban, it worked out well during the beginning of the mission, i mean we got what we wanted right...we were handed those responsiable for 9/11 right....Do you really think the taliban are interested in talking right now ? when NATO is stumbling over itself, because it can't mange to garner support for the mission....they know it is just a matter of time.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 I think Karzai's request is reasonable. Rather than saying he wants the ASAF to vacate, he is asking them to, instead of fighting a holding action against the TAliban which could go one forever and which in the end would force him to begin some undetermined move towards talks with the Taleban, he is asking the ISAF to win.I think defeating, crushing, exterminating and anniliating the Taleban to the last man is the only prudent option and it should be done in 5 years or less. Not as long as they have bases and recruiting centres across the border among the mouth breathing sixth century tribesmen along the Pakistani border - and help from Pakistani and Iranian intelligence. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Topaz Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 This war is going to go on for generations because as time slips by new Middle-easterns will want to come to the aid of the Taliban only because they are fighting the "WEST". The country to going to take trillions of $$$ to build it up and who is going to have the money for this. Outside of "helping the people" how is this war helping Canada. Is it by helping the US who wants control over the Middle-East? Granted now that Obama is taking over will he continue that thought? The way that the Taliban treated it people was wrong but just look at the rest of the Middle-East and countries the west is not at war with, treat their people just as badly. Karzai, is running again in an election and there are alot of people there that want him out so I guess he trying to do what he can to save himself and I would think the US especially would want to keep him there. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 As for talks with the taliban, it worked out well during the beginning of the mission, i mean we got what we wanted right...we were handed those responsiable for 9/11 right....Do you really think the taliban are interested in talking right now ? when NATO is stumbling over itself, because it can't mange to garner support for the mission....they know it is just a matter of time.... So everything is ok then, you don't need any help? Your only enabler is the politicians... they hold the money bags that pay for the guns and stuff. So, sure maybe sometimes an army can win the war, then it's not a question of win but how much it costs to win. Even, what does win really mean, if the long term outcome is more or less the same as what could be achieved, by some other means... Quote
White Doors Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 The Taliban wants us out, but not sure what you mean by Afghanistan wanting us out... Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
Army Guy Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 (edited) So everything is ok then, you don't need any help? You know as well as i do that talks did not accomplish anything....in fact it was decided that the military opition was the only one left.... Your only enabler is the politicians... they hold the money bags that pay for the guns and stuff.. Is that what you think.....politicians know where which side thier bread is buttered, and they listen to the people and if the people don't support the mission then there is no money bags for anything.... So, sure maybe sometimes an army can win the war, then it's not a question of win but how much it costs to win. Even, what does win really mean, if the long term outcome is more or less the same as what could be achieved, by some other means That has got to be one of the most retarded things i've heard todate....Why would a nation get into a war without first exploring all the other alternatives....2 nd why get into a war if you have no intentions of winning it.... Talks with the taliban Edited November 27, 2008 by Army Guy Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Sir Bandelot Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 You know as well as i do that talks did not accomplish anything....in fact it was decided that the military opition was the only one left....Is that what you think.....politicians know where which side thier bread is buttered, and they listen to the people and if the people don't support the mission then there is no money bags for anything.... That has got to be one of the most retarded things i've heard todate....Why would a nation get into a war without first exploring all the other alternatives....2 nd why get into a war if you have no intentions of winning it.... Talks with the taliban There's different kinds of winning. Economics is a major part of war strategy so it has to be considered. Everythings about balance and if other countries don't do their part, it comes down to some more realistic questions, not just slogans... If victory is impossible, it's even more retarded to just keep pouring money into it and watching lives piss away, when the outcome would be the same in each case. That is frugal, good economics. So, thats the reality your just not trained to know about... Yep, time for barking dogs to get back into their cages Quote
Oleg Bach Posted November 27, 2008 Author Report Posted November 27, 2008 There's different kinds of winning. Economics is a major part of war strategy so it has to be considered. Everythings about balance and if other countries don't do their part, it comes down to some more realistic questions, not just slogans... If victory is impossible, it's even more retarded to just keep pouring money into it and watching lives piss away, when the outcome would be the same in each case. That is frugal, good economics. So, thats the reality your just not trained to know about... Yep, time for barking dogs to get back into their cages There are no barking dogs in government. There are lap dogs though. Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 (edited) He knows who I mean...the army Edited November 27, 2008 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 There are no barking dogs in government. There are lap dogs though. H'e the army, yo. He knows who I mean... Or is peace simply beyond the comprehension of a militant mind... Quote
eyeball Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 But lets take a look at this mission, at the start the Majority of Canadians were supporting it, it was a noble cause, finally a mission that could not be blamed on oil, or other needed resources, but a humanitary mission that all Canadians could stand behind....that most of the world stood behind....troops and equipment poured in Afgan, along with large bags of cash.....Soon we where finding out that the Afgan people are not perfect, coruption runs rampat, thier values and morals do not match ours to a T....thier poor, uneduacated....And instead of digging in to help them over come these issues our support begins to dwindle....to the piont now where a majority of Canadians no longer support helping these people who have not changed over night, but instead are the same as the day we agreed to help them....And now troops and equipment are slowed to a trickle, and the cash...has almost stopped.... Canada started its mission with snipers who killed individuals at the direction of their US commanders. Whether this was a noble thing to do is debatable but to argue this started as a humanitarian mission is just completely untrue. I keep hearing that this conflict can not by won by conventional means, this coming from whom ? military experts, someone schooled in military sciences....The military has been giving you the answers, they give them to the media daily....WE NEED MORE TROOPS....and we quickly turn the page or change the channel...What do they know we mutter....Afgan is old news we want a change.... Why should this seem so strange or unusual given the mission's goals changed three or four times along the way? The military ALWAYS needs more troops so what's that got to do with it? As you seem to realize below, the mission needs more support first. Well I'd sayCanadians obviously need more of something too, and that's probably a clear consistent idea of what it is that we, not you, want to accomplish. Yes our government does have to shoulder alot of this missions failures....but they are politions interested in keeping thier jobs....and really memic what the general public wants to hear....What do you think would happen if Mr Harper decided he was doubling or tripling our troop strength in Afgan tommorow....would he find himself in another election, i'd bet alot of good money he would....So the majority has his hands tied ...that majority is you and others like you....time to take your share of the blame.... I'm not taking the blame for this. Like a lot of Canadians at the time I said Ottawa shouldn't send troops to muck about a quagmire of other people's making. So it ain't me. I ain't no senators son. PM Karzai is frustrated and so are the people of Afgan, that it is taking so long to finish the fight with the taliban and insurgents, and yet most western nations are giving as mush as thier public can bear, as the mission is not only unpopular here in Canada but world wide....what we are giving is just not enough....With a new US pres it is time to stop making Afgan our hobby, and start making this our priority....and get the job done.....I've said this a million times already....it does not matter how well our forces do on the battle field....it all hinges on support we recieve back home...support for the mission....with out it this mission will end in failure....and when we decide to record that in our history books....i hope the blame is distributed to all that have contributed to it's failure....Visit My Website That's what you said after Rwanda. Why on Earth do you people keep volunteering for this humiliation? Surely there other less frustrating ways you could try to help the world. If there are any people on this planet who should be able to see the futility of using the military to clean up the mess that almost always attends the political and economic machinations of the rich and powerful it the soldiers sent to clean it up. Don't you people EVER reason why? Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
M.Dancer Posted November 27, 2008 Report Posted November 27, 2008 Canada started its mission with snipers who killed individuals at the direction of their US commanders. Whether this was a noble thing to do is debatable but to argue this started as a humanitarian mission is just completely untrue. So the humanitarian thing would have been to allow the Taleban to enslave women, terrorize the population and to support internatioanl terrorists? It's not untrue, just that your definitions have no bearing on any form of reality other than your own. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.