What if we agreed to re-locate Israel?

[Oleg Bach]

Ask a wise and open Jew if Jews persecuted Jews...you will find out that brother does hate brother also within that huge extended family. Frankly we pay to much time and are overly focused on the "Jew thing" - give it a rest - anytime that attention is put towards the Jews - it is always to divert attention from someone else actually orchestrating the harm...give it a rest. The sterotypical idea is that Jews are all guilty of usery - History has it as in present time that the Jews are the ones getting used.

[DogOnPorch]

Jews persecuting Christians in Eastern Europe? Oh my...

-----------------------------------------

But I could not flee. We were surrounded by fascists with submachine guns, Ukrainian policemen, and ferocious dogs who were ready to tear a human being to pieces. And then, I could not leave my mother alone. I embraced her, burst into tears but was unable to leave her. Mother pushed me away and yelled "Hurry!"

I went to a table at which a fat officer was seated, showed him my passport and said quietly, "I am Russian." He was contemplating my passport when a policeman came over and barked, "Don't believe her, she's a Kike. We know her..."

---Dina Mironovna Vasserman

[GostHacked]

What do you all feel about the way Israel is expanding her borders? Clearly beyond what was drawn up in the mandate? I mean check out those settlements and the security barrier. I equate the barrier to a land grab.

Is it okay for Israel to keep expanding the way she is? She wants to solidify the borders by 2010 If I recall correctly. And this is clearly a violation of the agreement when Israel was created.

?????

[DogOnPorch]

What do you all feel about the way Israel is expanding her borders? Clearly beyond what was drawn up in the mandate? I mean check out those settlements and the security barrier. I equate the barrier to a land grab.

Is it okay for Israel to keep expanding the way she is? She wants to solidify the borders by 2010 If I recall correctly. And this is clearly a violation of the agreement when Israel was created.

?????

I equate the barrier to a castle wall...needed at various times through the ages...especially the Middle-East.

Three military attempts to destroy Israel plus numerous smaller attacks pretty much equals a land grab (that failed), too. But, no, it isn't okay for the Israelis to be provocative from a sanity point of view. Unlike the Arabs, they have to be very careful what they do least public opinion of them goes too far in the wrong direction. The Arabs can murder and bomb without hurting their position on the world stage to any great degree. For example...you don't care...right? Not that much, anyways. Not enough to change your mind. I imagine it actually helps their position in the Muslim world.

As far as the mandate's partition goes...

The Arabs tried to drive the Israelis into the Med. Do you feel the "agreement" is still valid? Sounds like a broken contract to me. As well, I'll pose the same question to you as I did to BC Chick (no response). Had the Arabs won any of their wars vs the Israelis would you be out here on the forums advocating for the Jews? They'd all be gone, afterall.

"Israel shall be free...from the river to the sea?"

I personally think many wouldn't lift a finger to help.

---------------------------------------------

There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire.

---Gamal Abdel Nasser, 1967

[Ontario Loyalist]

Jews persecuting Christians in Eastern Europe? Oh my...

-----------------------------------------

But I could not flee. We were surrounded by fascists with submachine guns, Ukrainian policemen, and ferocious dogs who were ready to tear a human being to pieces. And then, I could not leave my mother alone. I embraced her, burst into tears but was unable to leave her. Mother pushed me away and yelled "Hurry!"

I went to a table at which a fat officer was seated, showed him my passport and said quietly, "I am Russian." He was contemplating my passport when a policeman came over and barked, "Don't believe her, she's a Kike. We know her..."

---Dina Mironovna Vasserman

So what's with this proclivity to post inane, out-of-context quatations? How exactly does that prove that Jews weren't involved in persections prior to WWII?

If I were to post a quote about Soviet barbarities to German civilians in 1945, would that be sufficient to disprove and make completely laughable and absurd what Germans did in the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1944. Hardly.

You're hopelessly naive and ignorant about what life was really like in eastern Europe before WWII. You see everything from the perspective of what happened between 1939-1945, but fail to realize that it had its origins in events that took place over preceeding centuries and which you know nothing about. There's no denying that what the Nazis did was wrong, but just because they did what they did doesn't mean that we should ignore certain aspects of pre-WWII European history, which does include (local) persecutions of Christians by Jews, and a general partern of localized persecution of ethnic Germans by Poles, Russians, etc.

Edited November 29, 2008 by Ontario Loyalist

[BC_chick]

The Arabs tried to drive the Israelis into the Med. Do you feel the "agreement" is still valid? Sounds like a broken contract to me. As well, I'll pose the same question to you as I did to BC Chick (no response). Had the Arabs won any of their wars vs the Israelis would you be out here on the forums advocating for the Jews? They'd all be gone, afterall.

Yeah, no I didn't find the need to continue going in circles with you when you wouldn't answer my question. As I recall it went something like this:

DOP - Grand Mufti sealed the deal for the Palestinians

BCC - How so?

DOP - Because he rejected the partition and joined up with the Nazis instead.

BCC - How is that relevant to the discussion? May I remind you, as others on this thread are pointing out, we're discussing the the geography of Israel and whether or not it was right to create it on Palestinian land.

DOP - Well, the Jews had been there for centuries too.

BCC - So let's get this straight, Jews being somewhere for ages and the inhabitants trying to kill them is your justification? Then why not Germany? The actual culprit of the persecution and where the Jews had also been for centuries?

DOP - No, it stays where it is.

BCC - I wasn't discussing the present day, I asked with a pre-WWII worldview...

DOP - Would be be saying the same thing if the Jews lost the wars?

BCC - (to self) again... what the heck does this have to do with what I'm asking? Ah forget it, getting a response from this guy seems to be impossible. Onto better things....

Edited November 29, 2008 by BC_chick

[DogOnPorch]

So what's with this proclivity to post inane, out-of-context quatations? How exactly does that prove that Jews weren't involved in persections prior to WWII?

If I were to post a quote about Soviet barbarities to German civilians in 1945, would that be sufficient to disprove and make completely laughable and absurd what Germans did in the Soviet Union between 1941 and 1944. Hardly.

You're hopelessly naive and ignorant about what life was really like in eastern Europe before WWII. You see everything from the perspective of what happened between 1939-1945, but fail to realize that it had its origins in events that took place over preceeding centuries and which you know nothing about. There's no denying that what the Nazis did was wrong, but just because they did what they did doesn't mean that we should ignore certain aspects of pre-WWII European history, which does include (local) persecutions of Christians by Jews, and a general partern of localized persecution of ethnic Germans by Poles, Russians, etc.

You're the one who was apparently unaware of the significance of the Spanish Inquisition, Russian pogroms and the favorable attitude of the Polish kings twards the Jews. Then you pipe-up that it was Christians who faced persecution at the hands of the Jews in Eastern Europe. If anyone is naive and ignorant, it is you. The quote is from an eyewitness to Babi Yar (Kiev)...where Ukrainians and Germans got together to shoot 30,000+ Jews in under 36 hours. You're free to show me an event of any magnitude involving Jews coming together to kill Christains for simply living. The closest thing I can think about would be the NKVD...however it wasn't an all Jewish orginization by any means. Question for you....why are there so many former Eastern European Jews in the United States? (Don't worry...I know the answer to this one...let's see if you do.)

Re: Soviet barbarities to the citizens of Berlin.

The first units into Berlin were Soviet Guard units...very professional...kind and helpful, even...the ones that came after were the Siberian divisons made up of Asians for the most part. They were rape and loot happy, for sure. Punishment for the people. Stalin's revenge. A Russian Orthodox Christian from a seminary school...I doubt he attended church, though.

Trivia: During the 14th century, the spread of the plague matched the expulsion of the Jews for their precieved causing of said plague. So in a sense, Jews spreading the plague was a self-fulfilling event. The plague, as you might know, hit Eastern Europe last as the Jews moved towards the Kingdom of Poland and its well known tolerance.

BCC - (to self) again... what the heck does this have to do with what I'm asking? Ah forget it, getting a response from this guy seems to be impossible. Onto better things....

If you feel the Arabs have more rights to the former Ottoman lands than the Jews, there is little I can say that'll change your mind. Just as you'll have a hard time changing mine re: The Grand Mufti. To some he's still a hero...to others he'll always represent a horrible element of the Holocaust that never saw punishment and who's ideas were permitted to fester in the Middle-East.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.

---Jack Handey

Edited November 30, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

Three military attempts to destroy Israel plus numerous smaller attacks pretty much equals a land grab (that failed), too. But, no, it isn't okay for the Israelis to be provocative from a sanity point of view. Unlike the Arabs, they have to be very careful what they do least public opinion of them goes too far in the wrong direction. The Arabs can murder and bomb without hurting their position on the world stage to any great degree. For example...you don't care...right? Not that much, anyways. Not enough to change your mind. I imagine it actually helps their position in the Muslim world.

As far as the mandate's partition goes...

Let me see if I got this. The creation of Israel has been in the works since about 1917. So the Holocaust is not the reason why Israel was created. However it is used the most as a reason for creating Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

After Sykes-Picot, the British had made two promises regarding the territory in the Middle East it was expecting to acquire. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their support of the British; and in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home in Palestine. The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support.

[BC_chick]

If you feel the Arabs have more rights to the former Ottoman lands than the Jews [...]

Seeing how the Arabs outnumbered the Jews by huge margins, then yes, I would think the Arabs were more entitled to that land than the Jews.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them and you have their shoes.

---Jack Handey

:lol: :lol:

[bush_cheney2004]

....Seeing how the Arabs outnumbered the Jews by huge margins[/url], then yes, I would think the Arabs were more entitled to that land than the Jews.

Nobody is entitled to land...anywhere. They are only entitled to die trying to keep possession.

[DogOnPorch]

Seeing how the Arabs outnumbered the Jews by huge margins, then yes, I would think the Arabs were more entitled to that land than the Jews.

:lol: :lol:

Being the Arabs were military invaders, their numbers were indeed high. It would be interesting to find out the % that were Arab women circa 650 AD...low I'd imagine. If numbers are what decides who owns what, what's your stance on minority populations elsewhere?

Let me see if I got this. The creation of Israel has been in the works since about 1917. So the Holocaust is not the reason why Israel was created. However it is used the most as a reason for creating Israel.

Zionism is a bit older than that. The Holocaust showed that the Jews weren't safe even in areas where they were established for 1000 years. They needed a place where they were not at the whim of whatever current government was in charge.

bc-2004: Nobody is entitled to land...anywhere. They are only entitled to die trying to keep possession.

There's more truth to that than people are willing to admit.

------------------------------------------------------------

Peace comes from within. Do not seek it without.

---Prince Gautama Siddharta

[White Doors]

Relatively speaking, that would be a quite significant number; far exceeding what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust... Oh, but you'll deny that, right.

So were talking a 35 year period, which is more than enough time to undertake a systemic persecution of Christians; after, Christians would have been subjected to persecution wherever Judaism was still the dominant culture (or where they aligned with the current political ideology), which includes parts of eastern Europe and southern Russia up until the early 20th century.

So let me get this straight, you think less than 100,000 Jews died in the Holocaust?

[M.Dancer]

Relatively speaking, that would be a quite significant number; far exceeding what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust... Oh, but you'll deny that, right.

I have a feeling I'm not the denier....

So were talking a 35 year period, which is more than enough time to undertake a systemic persecution of Christians;

whether there was enough time is irrelevant. What is relevant is it didn't happen.

after, Christians would have been subjected to persecution wherever Judaism was still the dominant culture (or where they aligned with the current political ideology), which includes parts of eastern Europe and southern Russia up until the early 20th century.

Jews didn't have a dominant culture anywhere in Europe of for tbnat matter, most of Roman Palestine. You are simply dealing is ahistoric falsehoods.

[M.Dancer]

There isn't even any real evidence to suggest how many people died during the Holocaust; the figure I believe is based on estimates made by high ranking Nazis, men who otherwise wouldn't be given an ounce of credibility.

The first thing you have to understand about holocaust deniers is that they are notoriously stupid.

There is a mountain of evidence. There are train records to the camps, red cross records, camp records eye witness testimony as well as Neremburg trial testimony...

And to get back to the claim of a systematic persecution leading to the deaths of 10000s -100,000s of christians....there is none.

Edited December 1, 2008 by M.Dancer

[M.Dancer]

What do you all feel about the way Israel is expanding her borders?

You mean the way they expanded all the way out of Gaza?

Clearly beyond what was drawn up in the mandate? I mean check out those settlements and the security barrier. I equate the barrier to a land grab.

The barrier is a responce to terrorist infiltrators. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is it okay for Israel to keep expanding the way she is? She wants to solidify the borders by 2010 If I recall correctly. And this is clearly a violation of the agreement when Israel was created.

Where has Israel expanded her borders?

[GostHacked]

You mean the way they expanded all the way out of Gaza?

More like expanding all the way out TO Gaza. Beyond what was agreed upon with the creation of Israel with tyhe 1948 mandate.

The barrier is a responce to terrorist infiltrators. Nothing more, nothing less.

Castle walls are kind of permanent right? Maybe a moat is in order as well.

Where has Israel expanded her borders?

Well, like you said.. out to Gaza? I mean it is a simple comparison of the agreed borders and the locations of where the security barrier is being built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel

The borders of Israel are based on those which were established by the British Mandate of 1922, which were in turn previously agreed by the victorious powers with an interest in the area, namely the United Kingdom and France, in the aftermath of World War I. The borders of Israel with Egypt and with Jordan have now been formalised as part of the peace treaties with those countries, and with Lebanon as part of the 1949 Armistice Agreement. The border with Syria is still not settled. The border between Israel and the Palestinian territories is also still to be negotiated.

http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/how-di...ent-borders.php

A great change came in 1947: Palestine was further divided in the Partition Plan between Arabs and Jews approved by the United Nations General Assembly (29 November). According to this plan Palestine was divided into Jewish and Arab states, each composed of three areas contiguous in "choke points," while Jerusalem was to be put under international control. Immediately a war started between the people of Palestine, Jews and Arabs, and in less than three weeks the Arab League announced its rejection of the Partition Plan.

[M.Dancer]

More like expanding all the way out TO Gaza. Beyond what was agreed upon with the creation of Israel with tyhe 1948 mandate.

I suppose the arab league didn't need attack and lose....

Castle walls are kind of permanent right? Maybe a moat is in order as well.

What ever works is fine with me.

Well, like you said.. out to Gaza? I mean it is a simple comparison of the agreed borders and the locations of where the security barrier is being built.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel

http://middleeastfacts.com/Articles/how-di...ent-borders.php

Syria isn't the problem...it the ones chanting from sea to sea....sucks to be them.

[Oleg Bach]

America is the problem _ There is no such thing as the state of Israel that is a protectorate of the poor persecuted Jews.........The existance of Israel at this point in history is for the one purpose of being an American out post in the middle east - a place where America can have nukes and strike who they want at will. If all the Jews were to disappear - America would maintain Israel with the same vigor ....the jew hate thing diverts the mind from what Israel really is - a launch pad for nukes and that's it. The rest is a fantacy Even the Arabs are so frinking stupid to realize that this thing that they want ot push into the sea is not a true Jewish state.....In absolute reality - the Arabs should be saying "we will push America into the Mediteranian.... ISRAEL IS AN ILLUSION - ISREAL IS A STATE OF THE AMERICAN UNION NO DIFFERENT THAN Alaska...

[BC_chick]

Nobody is entitled to land...anywhere. They are only entitled to die trying to keep possession.

Oh right, I know this one, Article X, Section 4... of the Law of the Jungle!

Meanwhile, back here in the civilised world, UN contradicted its own charter when it created the nation of Israel against the wishes of 2/3 of its inhabitants. Furthermore, Israel declared itself a state on May 14, 1948, several hours before the British Mandate for Palestine came to an end, therefore it imposed by force “a settlement” that was not in accord with the following paragraph of the resolution:

“The Security Council determines as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution” (UNGA 181 November 29, 1947).

....the jew hate thing diverts the mind from what Israel really is - a launch pad for nukes and that's it. The rest is a fantacy Even the Arabs are so frinking stupid to realize that this thing that they want ot push into the sea is not a true Jewish state....

There is some truth to this though it goes both ways. Both the Arabs and the Jews stand to lose if peace if ever achieved. Israel would no longer have any 'security' loophole in continuing expansionist policies... and the Arabs would no longer have scapegoat Israel to blame for all their ills and would have to start explaining their own abysmal human-rights records instead of pointing their finger at Israel.

Meanwhile, Israel continues to get huge funding from the West, Arabs continue to paint themselves as martyrs againt the so-called tyrant Jews...

[M.Dancer]

Oh right, I know this one, Article X, Section 4... of the Law of the Jungle!

Meanwhile, back here in the civilised world, UN contradicted its own charter when it created the nation of Israel against the wishes of 2/3 of its inhabitants.

I'm not aware of any vote...mind you they did vote with their guns and got their arse handed to them...

[Oleg Bach]

Israel does not get funding from the west - Israel is the west. It recieves the same amount of money that any other state of the American Union gets. This ruse that the place is some sacred place full of potentioally persecutable jews is a myth. It's a military base period that wears a disguise...the Jew are but players in the fraud..this is not about making sure that the Jews have a safe homeland - if it were really about religious entitlements THERE WOULD BE PEACE BY NOW...THIS IS AN IMPERIAL OUTPOST... The pandering to right wing Christians and emotional Jews out of the loop is what grants this great deception cover. Israel does not exist. IT IS PLEASANTVILLE.

[M.Dancer]

Israel would no longer have any 'security' loophole in continuing expansionist policies...

Are those the policies that saw them give up Sinai and the Gaza?

Lets face it, there is only one player in this game that has expansionist goals...

From sea to sea palestine will be free....

[GostHacked]

Are those the policies that saw them give up Sinai and the Gaza?

Lets face it, there is only one player in this game that has expansionist goals...

From sea to sea palestine will be free....

And that player is the expansionist state of Israel. The reality proves you are wrong. Since Israel was created, the borders of Gaza and the West Bank are less than when Israel was first created.

[Oleg Bach]

And that player is the expansionist state of Israel. The reality proves you are wrong. Since Israel was created, the borders of Gaza and the West Bank are less than when Israel was first created.

Any expansion is not about creating more Jewish temples of prayer to bring them closer to God.. expansionism is about money - and more space - so as the west can have more authority in the east...What ever happened to the day when the Israel question was strickly about human right and religious freedom and security? The reason why Israel was established in now gone - so what's it's real reson for being at present - Is it political and economic and military or --------------------------------------religiously racist? They talk about excaping slavery and persecution yet they enslave and persecute their Palistinian cousins.....If God really wanted this place - they would not need American nukes to sustain - and how come they got nukes and the other in the area did not - they should have handed out nukes to all the other nations including Iran...and all would be properly armed

[M.Dancer]

And that player is the expansionist state of Israel. The reality proves you are wrong. Since Israel was created, the borders of Gaza and the West Bank are less than when Israel was first created.

Ummm yeah....because their neighbours made war on them and they lost. To those who have made peace with them, their lands have been returned. There is no expansionist policy.