Harper's plagiarized 2003 Iraq speech

[capricorn]

Think I have been quite clear why I think Harper is not good for the country. I disagree with his GST cut over income tax cuts. I disagree with his not advocating for clemency for Canadians facing the death penalty, I disagree with his stance on same sex marriage, I disagree with his daycare policy that doesn't create daycares, I disagree with him cancelling Kelowna. Most of all...I disagree with Harper's overspending that even the CTF says is over the top.

None of that is paranoia. It is Conservative policy.

You've indicated a couple of times you may not vote in this election because of your disappointment with the present Liberal Party. With the strong feelings you hold against Conservative policies, do yourself a favour and vote, if not for the Liberals, then another of the parties that comes closest to your political views. If you do not vote, you forfeit your right to complain.

[jdobbin]

Seriously?! He called you dobby! You'll survive that verbal atom bomb I promise!

The rules are clear. People have been suspended or banned for not following them. Try to show some courtesy in the forums.

And this is your response to my challenge for you to EXPLAIN what you think are Harper's bad economic policies!!? Providing internet links does not magically mean that you're right! All your links were just references to Harper spending announcements. Every government has spending announcements! Every opposition party has proposed even HEAVIER spending increases than the Harper government! Get your head out of the sand!!

You said Harper went overbudget. I acknowledged that. With that said, it was a budget HE set in the first place and HE STILL has a balanced budget with LOWER taxes.

They are budgets that he has roitinely gone over. I'd seen no evidence to show he can restrain his spending habit.

PLEASE. I beg of you! Explain what his bad economic policies are. Specifically, Jdobbin, what economic policies has Harper implemented that have set Canada so astray and how is the Liberal opposition's proposed spending increases of $80 billion going to help bring the supposed 'overspending' Conservative budget in line!??

Answer the question!

If you can't do that, then at least acknowledge that you don't have anything even resembling a clue what you're talking about.

So far you've shown us that you can't argue your way out of a wet paper bag.

You don't believe anything said anyway. It is a futile gesture for hyperpartisan Tories.

I totally disagree with tax credits and GST cuts. They are the wrong choice to make. Income tax cuts are superior in every way.

The Tory plan is is $20 billion piled on top of all their other pledges of cash. It has been 2 1/2 years of high spending.

[jdobbin]

You've indicated a couple of times you may not vote in this election because of your disappointment with the present Liberal Party. With the strong feelings you hold against Conservative policies, do yourself a favour and vote, if not for the Liberals, then another of the parties that comes closest to your political views. If you do not vote, you forfeit your right to complain.

I have never said I wouldn't vote in this election.

I said that I suspect the Liberals will be at death's door after this election and that if I didn't have a candidate in the center next election, I would probably not vote.

I happen to have an excellent candidate in my riding. His chances of winning are nearly non-existent.

Edited October 2, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

You can disagree with all of these things. Harper is not a pandering socialist nor is he socially liberal. We know that. His stance on same sex marriage is irrelevant as it will never affect Canadians. His daycare policy helped families. It may not have been enough for you, but he's never been about massively expensive social programs. You can disagree on him not wasting Canadian time and money intervening on the death penalty for a confessed multi-murderer, but I have more important things to care about.

It isn't irrelevant. It would appear that people in Quebec care about the arts and what the crime laws are.

According to Monte Solberg, the daycare space policy was a complete failure.

As for the GST vs Income Tax cuts, do you know how that affects you differently, or is that again just you towing the party line?

I believe that tax should be on consumption rather than on income. I thought the right thought the same way but it appears they don't.

[Canadian Blue]

They are budgets that he has roitinely gone over. I'd seen no evidence to show he can restrain his spending habit.

So you're going to vote for a party which will spend infinitely more than the Conservatives will. Not to mention the fact that you stated you would support cutting the Defence budget in order to fund Young People Fucking. Perhaps you should actually look at your party's platform which is going to massively increase spending for absurd art projects.

I totally disagree with tax credits and GST cuts. They are the wrong choice to make. Income tax cuts are superior in every way.

Problem is that the Liberals income tax cuts wouldn't do much. Maybe if they supported broad income tax cuts to each bracket or better yet a flat tax.

I believe that tax should be on consumption rather than on income. I thought the right thought the same way but it appears they don't.

Difference being that Liberals are using said taxes to directly attack Alberta and Saskatchewans economy to redistribute the wealth. That isn't exactly a great virtue of fiscal conservatives, and it's somewhat reminiscent of a certain Liberal program in the early 80's that helped to hinder the economy of the west.

[jdobbin]

So you're going to vote for a party which will spend infinitely more than the Conservatives will. Not to mention the fact that you stated you would support cutting the Defence budget in order to fund Young People Fucking. Perhaps you should actually look at your party's platform which is going to massively increase spending for absurd art projects.

You seem to love putting words in my mouth. I can't recall saying that I would cut defence spending.

The Tories are the ones that have increased arts spending in the double digits.

Problem is that the Liberals income tax cuts wouldn't do much. Maybe if they supported broad income tax cuts to each bracket or better yet a flat tax.

The economists who looked at the income tax cuts disagree with you. I actually would do $600 a year better.

Difference being that Liberals are using said taxes to directly attack Alberta and Saskatchewans economy to redistribute the wealth. That isn't exactly a great virtue of fiscal conservatives, and it's somewhat reminiscent of a certain Liberal program in the early 80's that helped to hinder the economy of the west.

Harper is using cap and trade to take money out of Alberta.

[Moonbox]

It isn't irrelevant. It would appear that people in Quebec care about the arts and what the crime laws are.

According to Monte Solberg, the daycare space policy was a complete failure.

I believe that tax should be on consumption rather than on income. I thought the right thought the same way but it appears they don't.

I understand all this. What I was saying was that nobody ever said Harper was going to win the socialist vote either way so that doesn't really matter.

We were talking about the economy though, and you've again dodged my challenge/question to you.

The only thing I got out of that was that you would have rather had income tax cuts than GST cuts. Fair enough but where was the explanation I was asking you for all of Harper's apparently disastrous economic policies?

[jdobbin]

I understand all this. What I was saying was that nobody ever said Harper was going to win the socialist vote either way so that doesn't really matter.

60% of the rest of Canada is socialist? Amazing.

We were talking about the economy though, and you've again dodged my challenge/question to you.

The only thing I got out of that was that you would have rather had income tax cuts than GST cuts. Fair enough but where was the explanation I was asking you for all of Harper's apparently disastrous economic policies?

The spending the Tories have embarked on is disastrous. Where are the meaningful spending cut?

[Bryan]

The spending the Tories have embarked on is disastrous. Where are the meaningful spending cut?

You need to get off this, it's deliberately dishonest.

The Liberals cuts were very deep, and they continued to announce very expensive programs without actually delivering them. Most of the Conservatives spending was because the Liberals left them holding the bag for their gross mismanagement of the country's finances. You don't just stop paying your bills and try to claim you have large savings, then blame the next guy for wasting your savings when he was left to pay your bills.

[Alta4ever]

and as a NATO country we could have limited ourselves to something we could have effectively supported...much like many other NATO countries have done. But we did and the Liberals are to blame for that.

There is no requirement that Canada continue in a role that it has not the wherewithall to complete. We have and that is the responsiblity of the Cons and Libs.

I will admit that the Fat Lady has yet to sing, and things may work out despite the fact the CAF is underequiped and undermanned for the role in wich they have been assigned.

The conservative party are not the innocent babes they like to make themselves out to be. They were the official opposition at the time Martin committed the CAF to its role. They gladly and happily supported that decision . They were not shocked to discover what that mission was when they took over the government. All the while knowing full well that the CAF was not properly equipped for the job.

Both the libs and cons are as guilty as sin.

Harper, knowing full well how underequiped the CAF was, plagerized a speach encouraging the government of the day in 2003 to commit those same underequiped AF to combat operations in Iraq....I know, that wasnt his fault, that was the fault of the Liberal Party.

Actually we are required by NATO to spend 2% of our budget on the military which we havedn't done for years and this is something to be addressed.

We made a commitment, to NATO afganistan and the world and it requires we see it through, otherwise we have underminded everything we have done. The Taliban/terror networks will see our withdrawal as a victory for them. You can't just quit half way through, we must finish what we started otherwise we undermine our credibility, make ourselves look weak and damage future barganing power.

"what we will pay for in drops of Blood now we will pay for in buckets later" Winston S. Churchill

[independent]

You need to get off this, it's deliberately dishonest.

The Liberals cuts were very deep, and they continued to announce very expensive programs without actually delivering them. Most of the Conservatives spending was because the Liberals left them holding the bag for their gross mismanagement of the country's finances. You don't just stop paying your bills and try to claim you have large savings, then blame the next guy for wasting your savings when he was left to pay your bills.

Since you are not being deliberately dishonest can you back up this claim with some evidence. It sure does not match my memory of things.

[jdobbin]

You need to get off this, it's deliberately dishonest.

The Tories promised to keep spending down. The continue to say they will abide by their election promise which was in their 2006 platform which has been linked here many, many times. Why do the Tories continue to spend beyond those measures. It is completely dishonest to blame the Liberals for programs the Tories have re-instated for political reasons such as the military college in Quebec.

The Liberals cuts were very deep, and they continued to announce very expensive programs without actually delivering them. Most of the Conservatives spending was because the Liberals left them holding the bag for their gross mismanagement of the country's finances. You don't just stop paying your bills and try to claim you have large savings, then blame the next guy for wasting your savings when he was left to pay your bills.

Utter and complete falsehood. If the Tories can't abide by their election promise of keeping spending in check, they are breaking a basic tenet of being conservative. Stop blaming the Liberals for Tory increases to arts funding.

[kengs333]

You need to get off this, it's deliberately dishonest.

The Liberals cuts were very deep, and they continued to announce very expensive programs without actually delivering them. Most of the Conservatives spending was because the Liberals left them holding the bag for their gross mismanagement of the country's finances. You don't just stop paying your bills and try to claim you have large savings, then blame the next guy for wasting your savings when he was left to pay your bills.

What about the bag that Mulroney left the Liberals, or the bag that the Harris Tories left McGuinty? Some of the same turkeys that were responsible for the Common Sense Revolution are now screwing Canada at the federal level.

[Oleg Bach]

YOU are a head of a state (the first servant) - the Prime Minister. As head of the state you are expected to make statements! One must be a charismatic in order to win the hearts and minds of those you serve. SO when I hear that "politians do not have the time to write their own speeches" - Then what the hell are they there for and what are they doing that is so important...more important than communicating personally with the people?

When you are dependant on someone that will do anything and say anything for a pay cheque - say - a young morally neutral up start professional speech writer - that is all of 25 years old then you have a problem. I can not imagine Winston Churchill calling up some kid at the height of World War Two and asking " Johnny what shall I say?" If that had been the case we would all be speaking German and genociding all non-complant individuals and groups.

It is a case of real natural leadership. This lack of spirit and mind is personified in Mayor Miller of Toronto. He should be able to go to Jane and Finch and stand on a soap box and win the hearts of the mischievious gang bangers...But NO...He has no character yet he is elected to lead. Harper must have something to say personally...perhaps what he has to say can not be said. What I know about those young speech writers is that they have the same mentallity as young actors that audition for commericals whose job if successful is to convince people to buy things that they do not need - They always and only hire the best liars - IF you have but a glint of honesty in your eyes you do not get the job.

Those that can not write their own speech or are not allowed to say what is on their mind are usually controlled by a corporate committee. Harper must be a parrot .....or a person who discovered once elected that he has no real power. What Harper did was not plagiarized by simply recycle the same brain washing statements that Bush would use and that the Australian Prime Minister would use once they were attatched to the hysterical terrorist bull crap...They all pull the globalist party line and what I see is that there are no leaders - look at Cheney - not a peep - look at Bush - one more lie that no one will go for - and Palin - I don't expect much from her..and the worst sell out propogandist that has suddenly emerged it that pin head Obama - who strings a bunch of re-cycled charming rhetoricals about that mean nothinig.

There is a crisis of leader ship in the world. There are none! What we have is a type of collective consciousness that reminds me of a talking ant hill. What the Harper statement that we are all concerned about.....states and it states clearly is the horrific fact and proof that he is controlled. When Bush gives a speech and the Australian guy uses the same format - then it is passed on deliberately to Harper - This is proof that there is a conspiracey of idiots with some dark and secret conspiratorial twits trying to take over the world by frightening it into dumbness...well it looks like there is a man behind the Ozian curtain - and he is not very creative. Which means that the world is leaderless.

I have seen the corporate, judical and political sphere exault compliant idiots and trample underfoot those of intelligence and true leadership qualities. There is more brain power locked up in our federal penal institutions and on welfare than their is on the top of the turd heap we call politics!

[sharkman]

Two points. One, this whole plagiarized speech thing is a joke. It happened in 2003, and some Liberal goof ball (or NDP take your pick) put it in their back pocket at some point until they figured they could do harm with the revelation. And by now they are greatly disappointed in the non result. A cheap low brow attempt which shows they didn't actually care about the plagiarization, or they would have revealed it years ago.

Two, 10 billion dollars. I've heard that's what the surplus is running at for this fiscal year. All the hand wringing about Harper's spending can now stop.

[Oleg Bach]

Two points. One, this whole plagiarized speech thing is a joke. It happened in 2003, and some Liberal goof ball (or NDP take your pick) put it in their back pocket at some point until they figured they could do harm with the revelation. And by now they are greatly disappointed in the non result. A cheap low brow attempt which shows they didn't actually care about the plagiarization, or they would have revealed it years ago.

Two, 10 billion dollars. I've heard that's what the surplus is running at for this fiscal year. All the hand wringing about Harper's spending can now stop.

True....plagiarization is really not the issue - what the issue really is, is in the fact that they had to go back so far to find a sin...It reminds me of a very good and honourable mature man after thirty years of marriage and his nasty wife brings up the fact that he swore at her and insulted her....but does not mention the fact that the crime took place 29 years ago...get my drift - this attack on Harper is a low blow. If this happened last month - then I would see the point - maybe someone will bring up the fact that he may have blown up a leopard frog with a fire cracker when he was 11....