Legalize Marijuana and Prostitution

[OddSox]

I just realized why it's so mind-numbingly difficult to have a conversation on a message board. Did anyone else notice the false dilemma proposed by the original argument?

There was an original argument?

[PoliticalCitizen]

The Conservative party currently is answering a call to restore justice, which was lax under the just society of the Liberals, and get criminality off our streets.

By criminalizing more people and ensuring young offenders become hardened criminals who know no other life than prison?

I would be more concerned with my ability to defend myself so the gun registry is a bigger issue to me and the Conservatives promise to revoke this legislation.

I would support a BAN on ALL types of GUNS for civilians.

Unlike drugs the only purpose a gun has is to kill. Aquiring a gun means intending to kill an animal or a human. We should not be allowing INSTRUMENTS OF MURDER to be sold, bought or kept by civilians.

[PoliticalCitizen]

I just realized why it's so mind-numbingly difficult to have a conversation on a message board. Did anyone else notice the false dilemma proposed by the original argument?

Enlighten us

[eyeball]

The Conservative party currently is answering a call to restore justice, which was lax under the just society of the Liberals, and get criminality off our streets.

Nonesense. The party that represents conservatism in this country is simply answering a call for vengence. It is using a few high profile cases to whip up fear and hysteria to win an election. Crime is down but fear and loathing are up and Harper is not above exploiting this. Many conservatives seem to think if Harper wins he'll suddenly drop the hard-assed approach, move towards the center and govern accordingly i.e. he'll become more like the Liberals and do little or nothing. On the other hand if problems with things like the economy become intractable he could ramp up the WOD in an attempt to distract Canadians from more pressing problems.

In the meantime at least 10 or 12 states have already decriminalized pot so there's little reason we couldn't go as far down the same road. If anybody has a reason to make the border watertight its us. If the economic situation in the US continues to worsen we could be faced with organized criminals desperate to keep their profits up who try to smuggle guns into Canada and even refugees.

[Pliny]

By criminalizing more people and ensuring young offenders become hardened criminals who know no other life than prison?

Young offenders that choose to wreak havoc on society have made their choices. You of course don't differentiate between victims and criminals. And consider all young offenders to be victims. The lesson here is that the majority are playing you.

I agree that government does criminalize it's citizens mostly for not paying their taxes, fines and tariffs. In our society government benefits from criminality through some perverted concept of a debt to society and never a debt to those that are victimized by criminality. If criminals actually corrected and made retribution for the damage they do then they would restore some of their self respect and victims of crime may get some sense of restoration without remaining victims the rest of their lives.

I agree spending time in prison is like getting your Master's in criminality - but you have to look at the fact that undergraduate work and possession of a degree is necessary to that achievement. You could perhaps make prison more of a disincentive by making it even more of a cesspool than it is or you can try some real justice through a forced program of atonement and retribution. The worse the crime the bigger the debt - but not to society - to the victims of crime.

I can't argue that marijuana should be illegal or made a criminal offense for possession because I don't believe it should be.

I would support a BAN on ALL types of GUNS for civilians.

Unlike drugs the only purpose a gun has is to kill. Aquiring a gun means intending to kill an animal or a human. We should not be allowing INSTRUMENTS OF MURDER to be sold, bought or kept by civilians.

You acquiring a gun means you intend to kill an animal or a human. There are other reasons for acquiring a gun, one, being self defense with, no intent to kill an animal or human. Are knives instruments of murder? Do people buy them with the intent to kill an animal or human? I suppose there are a few cases where they do when they have trouble getting a gun and they know no else has a gun either. If they know that they will be content to buy a knife for that purpose.

Supporting a ban on all guns is as tyrannical a policy as criminalizing marijuana in my view. Why should we enact your concerns, fears and opinions in law and not those who hold a concern fear and opinion that drugs of all kinds are a scourge on society. They are fears. Tyranny, yours or someone else's based in fear and enacted in law is, in my view, the bigger concern.

[Pliny]

Nonesense. The party that represents conservatism in this country is simply answering a call for vengence. It is using a few high profile cases to whip up fear and hysteria to win an election. Crime is down but fear and loathing are up and Harper is not above exploiting this. Many conservatives seem to think if Harper wins he'll suddenly drop the hard-assed approach, move towards the center and govern accordingly i.e. he'll become more like the Liberals and do little or nothing. On the other hand if problems with things like the economy become intractable he could ramp up the WOD in an attempt to distract Canadians from more pressing problems.

In the meantime at least 10 or 12 states have already decriminalized pot so there's little reason we couldn't go as far down the same road. If anybody has a reason to make the border watertight its us. If the economic situation in the US continues to worsen we could be faced with organized criminals desperate to keep their profits up who try to smuggle guns into Canada and even refugees.

Crime may be down for whatever reasons, and lack of interest in lesser crimes by enforcement agencies may be the leading cause, but violent crime still holds an interest and it is up.

Harper's move toward the centre, as you suggest is a belief of some, would be from the left not the right.

Harper won't do anything that I like regarding the economy unless he continues to lower taxes, cut spending and eliminate fractional reserve banking in the country. There is one thing that is worse than fractional reserve banking and that is fractional reserve banking based upon a fiat currency or already unsupported credit.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Young offenders that choose to wreak havoc on society have made their choices. You of course don't differentiate between victims and criminals. And consider all young offenders to be victims. The lesson here is that the majority are playing you.

I agree that government does criminalize it's citizens mostly for not paying their taxes, fines and tariffs. In our society government benefits from criminality through some perverted concept of a debt to society and never a debt to those that are victimized by criminality. If criminals actually corrected and made retribution for the damage they do then they would restore some of their self respect and victims of crime may get some sense of restoration without remaining victims the rest of their lives.

I agree spending time in prison is like getting your Master's in criminality - but you have to look at the fact that undergraduate work and possession of a degree is necessary to that achievement. You could perhaps make prison more of a disincentive by making it even more of a cesspool than it is or you can try some real justice through a forced program of atonement and retribution. The worse the crime the bigger the debt - but not to society - to the victims of crime.

Young offenders that choose to wreak havoc on society are products of our society. We are responsible of them behaving the way they do.

Is locking them up for life the only thing we can do?

Does it sound like the right thing to do?

You acquiring a gun means you intend to kill an animal or a human. There are other reasons for acquiring a gun, one, being self defense with, no intent to kill an animal or human. Are knives instruments of murder? Do people buy them with the intent to kill an animal or human? I suppose there are a few cases where they do when they have trouble getting a gun and they know no else has a gun either. If they know that they will be content to buy a knife for that purpose.

Supporting a ban on all guns is as tyrannical a policy as criminalizing marijuana in my view. Why should we enact your concerns, fears and opinions in law and not those who hold a concern fear and opinion that drugs of all kinds are a scourge on society. They are fears. Tyranny, yours or someone else's based in fear and enacted in law is, in my view, the bigger concern.

Unlike marijuana there's no ambiguity about a gun.

Yes, you can use it as a paper weight, but by the same token you could argue that a nuclear bomb is a work of art.

Any gun is a device that delivers deadly force onto the target. Designed to accurately and efficiently "neutralize" the target. You cannot use it to spread butter or cut bread, as you can a kitchen knife.

Yes, there are knives designed to draw blood, kill and dismember. Some types are already banned. I also believed all "military-style" knives should not be sold to civilians.

The argument of having a gun for "protection" is absurd... protection from whom? Another guy with the gun? Who bought it for his "protection"? Now who has the BIGGER gun? How about semi-automatic?

But we can continue this discussion in the Gun Control thread...

[cybercoma]

Enlighten us

You said this in your opening post:

Should our federal government impose tougher sentences on criminals or reduce their number by taking away and taxing their business?

You've limited the scope of options to two choices when it's possible that there are other solutions.

[PoliticalCitizen]

You said this in your opening post:

You've limited the scope of options to two choices when it's possible that there are other solutions.

Would you mind bringing them to the table?

That's what a discussion is for...

[Who's Doing What?]

Apology accepted.

I hold what are considered quite conservative values. I will disagree with government engineering society to agree with those values because I like my values and I would hope that no political party will hold their values to be enacted in legislation.

The Conservative party currently is answering a call to restore justice, which was lax under the just society of the Liberals, and get criminality off our streets. You happen to be on the edge of engaging in criminal activity under existing legislation and I understand your concern. I however am not concerned about drugs in the least.

I would be more concerned with my ability to defend myself so the gun registry is a bigger issue to me and the Conservatives promise to revoke this legislation. They are not enacting more legislation in our lives on the whole than would the Liberals and the NDP on average, so I will vote for them. Your big single issue is Marijuana and because the Consevative party is not for total decriminalization you believe them to be tyrants. Since the weed is your whole life I can see why you feel oppressed.

For me, the marijuana issue can wait for another day. There are many other issues more important.

I am of the opinion you mistake a natural state being made illegal, it is actually the use that is made illegal.

But, I don't believe my values should be imposed on anyone by the force of law, so I do disagree with the Conservative position on keeping drugs illegal.

The gun registry has nothing to do with preventing you from owning a gun. IT is a tool for law enforcement so that if they have to come to arrest you they know in advance that you have firearms on the property.

As for dismantling the registry, read my sig.

[TCCK]

I believe in gun control and limiting what types of guns can be bought

BUT

I own 2 rifles for hunting and a 9mm that is in a safe spot in my home to defend my family if someone ever got in while we are home. And I am thankful it is there.

But I have never have ANY criminal convictions, I am a level headed family/businessman (go ahead and take the cheap shot) so I am not the threat to go use my guns in an unsafe or irrational manner.

But back to the pot and ho's arguements guys.

Legalize pot and it is an easy stepping stone to say: " Well you legalized marijuana because it is a plant and it does not hurt anyone, so cocaine comes from a plant and I inhale it and I do not hurt anyone", then next " heroine is sure taken with a needle but I do it in a safe manner and I dispose of the old needle safely thus I hurt no one so legalize it." and so on.

You say no one would make that arguement?? It is human nature to always push against the boundry that is set for you. IT WILL HAPPEN!!

[Alta4ever]

Young offenders that choose to wreak havoc on society are products of our society. We are responsible of them behaving the way they do.

This is not true they are responsible for their own actions. This victim mentality of blaming everyone but yourself is what got society into the mess it's in. Your making excuses doesn't help it only enables more of this behaviour. These young offenders need to be held to account for their actions, no excuses. We are never responsible for someones elses choice, because its their choice, not ours.

If you want society to change, stop accepting the victim menatlity.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Legalize pot and it is an easy stepping stone to say: " Well you legalized marijuana because it is a plant and it does not hurt anyone, so cocaine comes from a plant and I inhale it and I do not hurt anyone", then next " heroine is sure taken with a needle but I do it in a safe manner and I dispose of the old needle safely thus I hurt no one so legalize it." and so on.

You say no one would make that arguement?? It is human nature to always push against the boundry that is set for you. IT WILL HAPPEN!!

I like your thought direction... honestly...

Canada has legalized gay marriages. What is so unconstitutional about poligamy? Why should it be illegal? It isn't illegal in many countries....

Or how about this:

So a hunting rifle is OK... Why not a semi-automatic? Or an automated rocket launcher on the roof just in case the uninvited guests are armed with "legal" shotguns and automatic weapons?

You can't restrict something just because it can lead to something else. Birth leads to death.

[PoliticalCitizen]

This is not true they are responsible for their own actions. This victim mentality of blaming everyone but yourself is what got society into the mess it's in. Your making excuses doesn't help it only enables more of this behaviour. These young offenders need to be held to account for their actions, no excuses. We are never responsible for someones elses choice, because its their choice, not ours.

If you want society to change, stop accepting the victim menatlity.

Their "choice" is dictated by the conditions they live in and people around them. Don't forget - we're talking about YOUNG offenders.

The society should be improving the quality of life of its lowest layer - that is the only true "grassroots" way of minimizing criminality.

[Alta4ever]

Their "choice" is dictated by the conditions they live in and people around them. Don't forget - we're talking about YOUNG offenders.

The society should be improving the quality of life of its lowest layer - that is the only true "grassroots" way of minimizing criminality.

Their choice is not dictated, they make it, quit making excuses, I have not forgot we are taking about your offenders, the problems we are have with them is a direct result of the victim mentality. They must be shown that there are consequences for commiting crimes, not just a slap on the wrist and someone making excuses for them. This is basic knowlege if you let a child get away with something once, they will do it over and over. Its time we break the cycle, and show young offenders their are consequences for their actions.

If this segment turely wants to improve their quality of live they can do it, their are enough social programs now to help with it. BTW there is no amount of social funding that will ever change this. There is not one country in the history of the world who has been able to slove this problem with more and more social funding.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Their choice is not dictated, they make it, quit making excuses, I have not forgot we are taking about your offenders, the problems we are have with them is a direct result of the victim mentality. They must be shown that there are consequences for commiting crimes, not just a slap on the wrist and someone making excuses for them. This is basic knowlege if you let a child get away with something once, they will do it over and over. Its time we break the cycle, and show young offenders their are consequences for their actions.

If this segment turely wants to improve their quality of live they can do it, their are enough social programs now to help with it. BTW there is no amount of social funding that will ever change this. There is not one country in the history of the world who has been able to slove this problem with more and more social funding.

I'm not saying we should set young offenders free, I'm saying we should adress the reasons that drove them to this choice.

I never said the social funding would "rid" us of young crime completely, but I'm certain it will be much more efficient then putting them in adult jails.

[eyeball]

Legalize pot and it is an easy stepping stone to say: " Well you legalized marijuana because it is a plant and it does not hurt anyone, so cocaine comes from a plant and I inhale it and I do not hurt anyone", then next " heroine is sure taken with a needle but I do it in a safe manner and I dispose of the old needle safely thus I hurt no one so legalize it." and so on.

By the same token, criminalize alcohol and tobacco. We've criminalized pot, cocaine and heroin because of what they do to people. It would be a lot easier for the state to walk its talk if it didn't have to sidestep the fact it approves the use of two of the individually and socially damaging drugs there are.

That is the meassge isn't it, that altering your mind is or should be a crime? Or are we still criminalizing things like pot because it makes white kids want to dance like negros?

[cybercoma]

Would you mind bringing them to the table?

That's what a discussion is for...

Why bother when you're clearly begging the question.

[Alta4ever]

I'm not saying we should set young offenders free, I'm saying we should adress the reasons that drove them to this choice.

I never said the social funding would "rid" us of young crime completely, but I'm certain it will be much more efficient then putting them in adult jails.

I highly doubt it, how much money goes to that segment of the population already, rec programs, facilities, community out reach programs, not to mention the the privately funded groups for them through church youth groups ect. I wonder just how much social funding already goes to these kids, and the problem is still growing. They must a have a stiff deterent as well, the slap on the wrist does nothing but teach them they can get away with it over and over.

[eyeball]

I highly doubt it, how much money goes to that segment of the population already, rec programs, facilities, community out reach programs, not to mention the the privately funded groups for them through church youth groups ect. I wonder just how much social funding already goes to these kids, and the problem is still growing. They must a have a stiff deterent as well, the slap on the wrist does nothing but teach them they can get away with it over and over.

I don't doubt the number of criminologists who say a stiffer deterent will do nothing to treat a problem that's been ebbing and flowing like the tide forever and likely always will.

The problem will only grow in the face of more prohibition. Its like a feedback loop. I'd say go ask an economist but I suppose that's exactly what you already did. Talk to a criminologist or Al Capone maybe.

[Alta4ever]

I don't doubt the number of criminologists who say a stiffer deterent will do nothing to treat a problem that's been ebbing and flowing like the tide forever and likely always will.

The problem will only grow in the face of more prohibition. Its like a feedback loop. I'd say go ask an economist but I suppose that's exactly what you already did. Talk to a criminologist or Al Capone maybe.

Ya right, lets look at what those policies you speak have done, increased the numbers of young offenders, and repeat offenders, all while the courts are letting these people go few crimes are going reported because their is no sense of justice. The next stop will be viglianties, and the complete loss of faith in our justice system. So bravo, the polices you advocate have had such a positive impact.

[eyeball]

Ya right, lets look at what those policies you speak have done, increased the numbers of young offenders, and repeat offenders, all while the courts are letting these people go few crimes are going reported because their is no sense of justice. The next stop will be viglianties, and the complete loss of faith in our justice system. So bravo, the polices you advocate have had such a positive impact.

I tried to trace back the source of what's bugging you and this seems to be the crux of it.

This is not true they are responsible for their own actions. This victim mentality of blaming everyone but yourself is what got society into the mess it's in. Your making excuses doesn't help it only enables more of this behaviour. These young offenders need to be held to account for their actions, no excuses. We are never responsible for someones elses choice, because its their choice, not ours.

If you want society to change, stop accepting the victim menatlity.

This thread is about legalizing pot and prostitution and by extension why prohibiting them is futile. The only reason murder enters into this its because the people involved in these enterprises have no justice system to settle differences so they use guns. 90% of the rest of the crime that is committed in Canada is likewise happening because prohibition has created the perfect economic conditions for crimes of many kinds.

If there is anyone that is revelling in their own victimhood its you and that part of society that's chosen to regard vice as a crime. To make things worse you folks have chosen to deny the consequences of your own actions and cry like babies because someone else has made society a mess. Why should your choice be anyone else's fault but your own?

[Oleg Bach]

The word vice is rooted in the concept of vicous. It is a quiet and insidious rage that attacks the health of the group and the individual. To be dependent on prostitution or on the habitual long term use of pot is not the best for physical and mental health. The arguement put forth by the writer is based in the fact that illegal enterprise brings forth gun violence...well on the other hand the adventure in Iraq and Afghanistan is illegal and also brings forth violence. IF the money and fire power spent on so called legal wars was implimented domestically and brought to bare on domestic violence then we would not be having this conversation. We as as a society have the power to shut down the bad guys but not the will because as I have said repeatedly - we live in an environ of neutral morality..everything is ok..

[Alta4ever]

I tried to trace back the source of what's bugging you and this seems to be the crux of it.

This thread is about legalizing pot and prostitution and by extension why prohibiting them is futile. The only reason murder enters into this its because the people involved in these enterprises have no justice system to settle differences so they use guns. 90% of the rest of the crime that is committed in Canada is likewise happening because prohibition has created the perfect economic conditions for crimes of many kinds.

If there is anyone that is revelling in their own victimhood its you and that part of society that's chosen to regard vice as a crime. To make things worse you folks have chosen to deny the consequences of your own actions and cry like babies because someone else has made society a mess. Why should your choice be anyone else's fault but your own?

We were specifically talking about young offenders, a little of topic.

BTW I do feel that I am not a victim of this just society as a whole, and as the Netherlands has learned what you advocate doesn't do much to help the situation, as they are now tring to reverse some of these legalization laws.

Edited October 3, 2008 by Alta4ever

[eyeball]

We were specifically talking about young offenders, a little of topic.

No kidding its off topic. These off topic issues always crop up in these discussions though, like Hitler does in Godwin's Law.

BTW I do feel that I am not a victim of this just society as a whole, and as the Netherlands has learned what you advocate doesn't do much to help the situation, as they are now tring to reverse some of these legalization laws.

Your wallet is a victim of a failed policy. You're saying the Dutch government is getting back into the wars on pot and prostitution? I don't think so. I know they prohibited mixing and burning tobacco with pot in public but I'm pretty sure that's about it.