Explosion at Pakistan Marriott hotel kills 40

[jbg]

These desparately poor countries wonder why they can never get ahead. Look what happens to anyone who deigns to visit or do business.

Maybe it is the fault of Westerners. Maybe not. Who knows.

No sane person is going to risk life and limb to try to engage in mutually beneficial economic activity in this setting.

Explosion at Pakistan Marriott hotel kills 40

(link to article)

By ASIF SHAHZAD, Associated Press Writer

16 minutes ago

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan - A massive suicide truck bomb devastated the heavily guarded Marriott Hotel in Pakistan's capital Saturday, killing at least 40 people and wounding at least 100. Officials feared there were dozens more dead inside the burning building.

The blast targeting the U.S. hotel chain appeared to be one of the largest terrorist attacks ever in Pakistan, leaving a vast crater some 30 feet deep in front of the main building, where rescuers ferried a stream of bloodied bodies.

The five-story Marriott had been a favorite place for foreigners as well as Pakistani politicians and business people to stay and socialize in Islamabad despite repeated militant attacks.

The attack came just hours after President Asif Ali Zardari made his first address to Parliament and days ahead of the new leader's meeting with President Bush Tuesday in New York on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly.

Rehman Malik, the head of Pakistan's Interior Ministry, told The Associated Press that authorities had received intelligence that there might be militant activity due to Zardari's inaugural address. Security had been tightened, he said.

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[/indent]

[PoliticalCitizen]

These desparately poor countries wonder why they can never get ahead. Look what happens to anyone who deigns to visit or do business.

Maybe it is the fault of Westerners. Maybe not. Who knows.

No sane person is going to risk life and limb to try to engage in mutually beneficial economic activity in this setting.

This is what happens when "Democracy" is artificially imposed on one of the most radical Islamic countries.

[DogOnPorch]

This is what happens when "Democracy" is artificially imposed on one of the most radical Islamic countries.

So the West is to blame?

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Summer time...and the livin' is easy.

Fish are jumpin' now,

And the cotton is high...

---Gershwin & Gershwin

[Leafless]

So the West is to blame?

Could be.

Current estimates have it that the world can only support 2-billion people living a U.S. lifestyle.

Current world population is about 6.6-billion people.

Why encourage further population growth with new found wealth?

What will happen to countries like China (population wise) who are experiencing a more prosperous lifestyle incorporating capitalism?

What will this do to our current pollution and energy crisis along with inevitable further conflicts?

Edited September 21, 2008 by Leafless

[DogOnPorch]

Could be.

Current estimates have it that the world can only support 2-billion people living a U.S. lifestyle.

Current world population is about 6.6-billion people.

Why encourage further population growth with new found wealth?

What will happen to countries like China (population wise) who are experiencing a more prosperous lifestyle incorporating capitalism?

What will this do to our current pollution and energy crisis along with inevitable further conflicts?

While I agree that World population is a problem, wtf does that have to do with a bomb blast in Islamabad?

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Yes, it's a perfect scale model of the Universe's largest bottle. I put a tiny spaceship inside to keep it from being boring.

---Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Futurama

[eyeball]

While I agree that World population is a problem, wtf does that have to do with a bomb blast in Islamabad?

Here's a clue, alpha rats in a cage.

[bush_cheney2004]

Timothy McVeigh expressed his displeasure with "democracy", but it wasn't in Pakistan. So much for that premise.

[udm]

It's true that sectarian violence has a long history in Pakistan. However, attacks -- suicide attacks in particular -- on government and neutral civilian targets a very recent phenomenon. The origin of attacks such as this can easily be traced to the American "war on terror".

Now, to think about how to deal with this issue:

Violence is what brought about these circumstances, it's not going to help fix them. We need to sit down and talk to these people. It may seem outrageous to do so, because these people are "murderers" and "killers", but we're the ones dropping bombs on their children. Why shouldn't they hate us? Why shouldn't they want to hurt us?

[bush_cheney2004]

It's true that sectarian violence has a long history in Pakistan. However, attacks -- suicide attacks in particular -- on government and neutral civilian targets a very recent phenomenon. The origin of attacks such as this can easily be traced to the American "war on terror".

History tells us otherwise....from suicide missions during WW2, bombings in Algeria/Italy/Spain, suicide bombers during the Vietnam War, IRA bombings in the UK, Palestinian suicide attacks, and of course 9/11....all of which happened before the so called American "war on terror".

[udm]

History tells us otherwise....from suicide missions during WW2, bombings in Algeria/Italy/Spain, suicide bombers during the Vietnam War, IRA bombings in the UK, Palestinian suicide attacks, and of course 9/11....all of which happened before the so called American "war on terror".

I was talking about suicide attacks in Pakistan...

[jbg]

Violence is what brought about these circumstances, it's not going to help fix them. We need to sit down and talk to these people. It may seem outrageous to do so, because these people are "murderers" and "killers", but we're the ones dropping bombs on their children. Why shouldn't they hate us? Why shouldn't they want to hurt us?

Who do you talk to, the people who died manning the suicide trucks? Or the cowards that sent them out?

I am sure that the organizers are really going to step forward and elucidate their "demands". Even if they did, is incentiving cowards and killers what you really want to do?

[bush_cheney2004]

I was talking about suicide attacks in Pakistan...

Suicide bombings and just palin ol' bombings and killin' are not a recent event in Pakistan either. Estimates of 500,000 to 1,000,000 killed are routinely estimated since the "Partition"

http://www.massviolence.org/Thematic-Chron...util_sommaire_0

[udm]

Who do you talk to, the people who died manning the suicide trucks? Or the cowards that sent them out?

You talk to the tribal leaders in Northwest Pakistan, i.e. 'the cowards who sent them'.

I am sure that the organizers are really going to step forward and elucidate their "demands". Even if they did, is incentiving cowards and killers what you really want to do?

The tribal leaders are willing to talk to the Pakistani government. The government was even able to work out a truce with certain regional leaders following General Musharraf's departure from the presidency.

You can call them "killers" all you want, but like I said, we're the ones dropping bombs on their children. And as for "cowards", once again, we're the ones attacking them using drones, and writing the deaths of innocents off as collateral damage.

Progressing further with violence will only nurture more anti-Americanism -- and hatred towards the west in general -- and cause more acts of terrorism such as this one.

Suicide bombings and just palin ol' bombings and killin' are not a recent event in Pakistan either. Estimates of 500,000 to 1,000,000 killed are routinely estimated since the "Partition"

I already mentioned that attacks in the form of sectarian violence were relatively common in Pakistan even before the "war on terror":

It's true that sectarian violence has a long history in Pakistan.

http://www.massviolence.org/Thematic-Chron...util_sommaire_0

If you'd actually read anything on that website, you would've realized that the first listing of a suicide bombing on it is post-9/11:

2002; May 8: A suicide bomber rammed a car full of explosive into a Pakistan Navy bus, as it was leaving the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. Fourteen people were killed, among whom eleven French naval engineers, who were working on a submarine project with the Pakistan Navy. According to the HRCP, the French nationals were the main target. *** (HRCP, 2002: 166).

And let me show you how else it supports what I have already said:

The targeting of security forces and government officials is quite a new feature in Pakistan. As the major mean through which these attacks are conducted is suicide bombing, it results in many civilian losses. Regarding this technique, it appears to be very much a post September 11 phenomena though it was initiated in Kashmir after the 1999 Kargil war by Jehadi groups, especially by the Lashkar-e-Taiba and the Jaish-e-Mohammad (Rana, 2006: 337-39; Blom, 2007: 71-72). It is commonly resorted to since late 2001 by most Jehadi organizations both in the “War on Terror” related violence and the sectarian violence.

Thanks for the help bush_cheney2004.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks for the help bush_cheney2004.

You are most certainly welcome.....that's what happens when you think the universe revolves around the actions of the United States. After all, it is so much better to have been killed by a means other than suicide bomb!

[udm]

You are most certainly welcome.....that's what happens when you think the universe revolves around the actions of the United States. After all, it is so much better to have been killed by a means other than suicide bomb!

Do you honestly believe that the "war on terror" taking place has little or no correlation with the rise in suicide attacks and bombings inside Pakistan?

Last year, there were fifty-six suicide attacks in Pakistan. That's an average of more than one a week. Violence at a scale like this didn't ever take place before the "war on terror". Occasional attacks used to occur between rival religious and ethnic groups. Now, the list of those who qualify as targets has expanded, as have the means in which the attacks take place, and the number of attacks has gone up astronomically.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you honestly believe that the "war on terror" taking place has little or no correlation with the rise in suicide attacks and bombings inside Pakistan?

No, I was responding to your earlier post which was patently false, to wit:

...However, attacks -- suicide attacks in particular -- on government and neutral civilian targets a very recent phenomenon. The origin of attacks such as this can easily be traced to the American "war on terror".

You have since admitted that this can't be the case. Moreover, the so called "war on terror" is not only an American affair.

[udm]

No, I was responding to your earlier post which was patently false, to wit:

Is this No an answer to my question? You don't believe the "war on terror" has anything to do with the rise of violence in Pakistan?

If so, could you please provide evidence to support your view. The evidence you tried to show earlier turned out to actually help prove my point, so...

If this is going to turn into a "I think you're wrong because I think you're wrong" debates from your end... then we can just stop it right here.

...However, attacks -- suicide attacks in particular -- on government and neutral civilian targets a very recent phenomenon. The origin of attacks such as this can easily be traced to the American "war on terror".

You have since admitted that this can't be the case. Moreover, the so called "war on terror" is not only an American affair.

Do quote me as to where I have since admitted that this can't be the case.

[bush_cheney2004]

Is this No an answer to my question? You don't believe the "war on terror" has anything to do with the rise of violence in Pakistan?

Correct...the assertion as you posted, attributed solely to the "Americans" is patently false. You would have fared a little better by including NATO, UN, or other such international effort against terrorism, but even then you still have the fatal flaw of "origin", when any number of historical issues plague Pakistan, and have for many years. In fact, Al Qaeda's first organization (predating the so called "war on terror") is largely believed to be Pakistani in origin, further eroding your position.

Fear not...your only crime was one of being imprecise. Many factors contributed to the rise in suicide bombings for Pakistan.

[jbg]

You talk to the tribal leaders in Northwest Pakistan, i.e. 'the cowards who sent them'.

The tribal leaders are willing to talk to the Pakistani government. The government was even able to work out a truce with certain regional leaders following General Musharraf's departure from the presidency.

If the hotel attack was a truce I hate to see what a non-truce looks like.

You can call them "killers" all you want, but like I said, we're the ones dropping bombs on their children. And as for "cowards", once again, we're the ones attacking them using drones, and writing the deaths of innocents off as collateral damage.

InNteresting how Israel, itself the victim of this mayhem with some frequency, would never indulge in an attack of this variety.

I have few questions for you. While it is true that the Americans may be bombing the tribal region, giving some cause for anger, do the Jews have any cause for anger in the world? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Germans and Austrians over the Holocaust? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Russians and Poles for the pogroms of the late 1800's and early 1900's? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Spanish and Portugese for the Inquisition? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Muslims, other than surgical strikes, for the constant senselss bloodbaths that are a fact of everyday life in Israel? Are the Americans engaging in bloodshed directed at British and Canadian people for burning the White House?

You get the picture.

Progressing further with violence will only nurture more anti-Americanism -- and hatred towards the west in general -- and cause more acts of terrorism such as this one.

See my questions above. Why do the tribal leaders, Palestinians, and Al Quaeda get a free pass?

[jbg]

Is this No an answer to my question? You don't believe the "war on terror" has anything to do with the rise of violence in Pakistan?

Given that the attack occurred at the end of Ramadan, and most of the casualties were Muslims breaking fast, how does this relate to the war on terror?

[PoliticalCitizen]

InNteresting how Israel, itself the victim of this mayhem with some frequency, would never indulge in an attack of this variety.

I have few questions for you. While it is true that the Americans may be bombing the tribal region, giving some cause for anger, do the Jews have any cause for anger in the world? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Germans and Austrians over the Holocaust? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Russians and Poles for the pogroms of the late 1800's and early 1900's? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Spanish and Portugese for the Inquisition? Are the Jews engaging in bloodshed directed at Muslims, other than surgical strikes, for the constant senselss bloodbaths that are a fact of everyday life in Israel? Are the Americans engaging in bloodshed directed at British and Canadian people for burning the White House?

jbg, you really could not possibly find a worse example

Israel is the embodiment of hatred, vengeance, violence and appartheid.

It is probably the single most hated state not just in existence but in history.

[WestViking]

jbg, you really could not possibly find a worse example

Israel is the embodiment of hatred, vengeance, violence and appartheid.

It is probably the single most hated state not just in existence but in history.

So much for rational and supportable argument. Next.

[DogOnPorch]

It is probably the single most hated state not just in existence but in history.

Oh yeah? Hated by whom?

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CJ Ramone: Go to hell, you old bastard!

Marky Ramone: Hey, I think they liked us.

Mr. Burns: Have the Rolling Stones killed.

Smithers: But sir, those aren't the...

Mr. Burns: Do as I say!

---The Simpsons

[PoliticalCitizen]

So much for rational and supportable argument. Next.

I don't want to vent about Israel here, although I could bring both "rational" and "supportable" arguments to the table.

I'm sure there are other threads we can use for that and even then all of it was most likely discussed multiple times here.

But making Israel an example of RESTRAINT when it comes to violence - give me a f*king break.

This is a country that killed over 1,000 Lebanese for 2 of its soldiers (which it couldn't save anyway). That's a truly MASSIVE show of restraint.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Oh yeah? Hated by whom?

Let me put it that way: there's only 1 ( O N E ) country that pretends to like it