Which party will bring troops back from Afghanistan?

[Army Guy]

Wikipedia: "The War in Afghanistan, which began on October 7, 2001, was launched by the United States and the United Kingdom in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks. It was the beginning of the War on Terror. The stated purpose of the invasion was to capture Osama bin Laden, destroy al-Qaeda, and remove the Taliban regime which had provided support and safe harbor to al-Qaeda."

It began with 2 countries that attacked a third country. Not UN, not NATO, not even a "Coalition of the Willing".

Your facts are not 100 % correct, how do you explain the below link Canadian armed forces units where on the ground in 2001 and in combat by early 2002. So there was definatly a "coalition of the willing"

CAF

The aggression was justified by the search for an ALLEGED mastermind of the 9/11 tragic eveniments in US, his organization (Al-Qaeda) and the Afghani ruling regime that gave them harbor (Taliban).

However (unless I somehow missed it) there was no evidence found that would prove "beyond a shadow of doubt" that Osama and Al-Qaeda were responsible for the 9/11 tragedy.

"Alleged" you did see the tape which aired across the globe where he annouces he was responsable for the 9/11 attacks, plus the mountains of evidence compiled from numerous other persons that all piont thier fingers at Bin Ladin, and his merry band of thugs, shit confessions obtained from his chain of command all said he was in charge assisted with the planning, and very much knew what was going on....he is guilty without a dought, even he has said as much.... what more do you need a court of law to prove it...There was enough edvidance for the UN to sanction the attacks....but not enough to make a believer out of you....

Results after 7 years: Osama has not been captured, Al-Qaeda's operations in Afghanistan have been disrupted and the Taliban ousted but not destroyed; so we have some goal patially accomplished.

2 out of 3 is more than just some....

Fact 3: There's simply NO concrete achievable goals defined or set that Canadian forces in Afghanistan can reach in a timely manner so that their departure be "morally justified" or happen after "the logical culmination" of the operation.

Have a read of this sites they may provide you with some insight, if you need more there is more, it's getting early here and i have to get some rack time.

CF

Afgan

[PoliticalCitizen]

Incorrect.

In 2003 57 coalition soldier were killed, 12 less that in 2002

as well

ISAF has a peace-enforcement mandate under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. Eight UN Security Council Resolutions – 1386, 1413, 1444, 1510, 1563, 1623, 1707 and 1776 – relate to ISAF.

By 2005 US had only 89 soldiers in Afghanistan:

http://www.nato.int/issues/afghanistan/040628-factsheet.htm

[Smallc]

By 2005 US had only 89 soldiers in Afghanistan:

http://www.nato.int/issues/afghanistan/040628-factsheet.htm

No, they only had 89 soldiers in the ISAF. They were running their own separate Mission with around 20 000 soldiers.

Edited September 12, 2008 by Smallc

[PoliticalCitizen]

Your facts are not 100 % correct, how do you explain the below link Canadian armed forces units where on the ground in 2001 and in combat by early 2002. So there was definatly a "coalition of the willing"

Whatever coalition there may have been the attacks on both Afghanistan and Iraq were made without respect of international laws and agreements.

"Alleged" you did see the tape which aired across the globe where he annouces he was responsable for the 9/11 attacks, plus the mountains of evidence compiled from numerous other persons that all piont thier fingers at Bin Ladin, and his merry band of thugs, shit confessions obtained from his chain of command all said he was in charge assisted with the planning, and very much knew what was going on....he is guilty without a dought, even he has said as much.... what more do you need a court of law to prove it...There was enough edvidance for the UN to sanction the attacks....but not enough to make a believer out of you....

Tapes and confessions are hardly evidence... anybody can confess to anything, especially after being tortured in a prison for a while...

Is it believable that a "merry band of thugs" (term I totally agree with) would perform aerial acrobatics with absolute precision during their very first flights of commercial airliners? Not to most of the world... not to most Canadians...

As a matter of fact there's also tons of un-official "evidence" that "proves" that the whole thing was staged...

I guess in the end each person chooses what they want to believe...

Have a read of this sites they may provide you with some insight, if you need more there is more, it's getting early here and i have to get some rack time.

I am genuinely glad that at least our military appears to be optimistic and enthusiastic about this mission... because the ordinary Canadians are certainly far from it.

Another "FACT": Both wars were started by an administration that exploited the USA's status as the only superpower (at the time, anyway) to cynically pursue its geopolitical interests and the interests of the oil and arms indusries with no regard to the loss of tens of thousands of civilian lives, not to mention its BLATANT DISREGARD to the opinions of the rest of the world (including countries - members of NATO).

That spells: WRONG CAUSE, and wrong cause means NO VICTORY.

PS: AG, if you're in Afghan now - I wish you and your brothers in arms good luck and safe return home. Even if you can't put the fire out you are keeping it at bay - THANK YOU for that.

Edited September 12, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[PoliticalCitizen]

No, they only had 89 soldiers in the ISAF. They were running their own separate Mission wit around 20 000 soldiers.

Thank you for correcting me.

[Army Guy]

Whatever coalition there may have been the attacks on both Afghanistan and Iraq were made without respect of international laws and agreements

Much has been written in regards to the mission in Afgan and it's legality, and it's argued by many lawyers, whom are more educated than myself. That being said lets look at a few organizations that have said for the most part operations in Afgan are legal.

The UN itself has authorized not only ISAF portion but also the US and coalition portion...And perhaps it is a fault of mine, but if the UN has given the green light, one would hope they have studied it, ensured it was legal before they put there stamp on it...

Human rights watch.... i mean come on your not going to get any more unbais than these guys....and i'm sure they have also studied the crap out of it and gave it there thumbs up...

I'll leave it to you to decide but when i'm in dought i always go with the UN for law anyways...and that info is available on thier web site.

Legal

Tapes and confessions are hardly evidence... anybody can confess to anything, especially after being tortured in a prison for a while.

True enough, but bin ladin confessed without any duress or capture, and is quit proud of that achievement. along with all of his chain of command, it is quit a coup for them to hurt the worlds only major super power the way they did...

As for America setting this whole thing up, Afganistan has nothing to offer, except opuim and rock, and maybe a oil pipe line route...hardly worth all the expense for what the US has already paid out...and for the amount of effort the US is really putting into getting said goals....i mean with well over 2.5 million troops under arms why not just crush afgan with one major campiagn....instead they have placed just under 30,000 troops there not enough to really do anything but keep the status quo....

Is it believable that a "merry band of thugs" (term I totally agree with) would perform aerial acrobatics with absolute precision during their very first flights of commercial airliners? Not to most of the world... not to most Canadians...

Crashing an airliner into a building is hardly performing aerial acrobatics, one has to remember that these terrorist where schooled to fly in the US, albiet on smaller aircraft, reprograming the aircrafts computers, being familar with cockpit layout can be taught by book or for that matter a number of flight sims available at your local gaming shop....really not hard for someone that was determined...

I am genuinely glad that at least our military appears to be optimistic and enthusiastic about this mission... because the ordinary Canadians are certainly far from it.

For good reason, for a short period of time we live here, we interact with the Afgan people daily, we see the ups and downs, we see thier pain,

we see it live everyday it's not clouded with political agenda's, personal opinions, media slant....we see it as it happens....and we think we can make a difference here.

But this mission was suppose to be a Canadian one, and thats not what it is now, it is a Military one, in which we do all the heavy lifting and work, and yet have no say in anything....and with the exception of the minority we have been abandoned.

PS: AG, if you're in Afghan now - I wish you and your brothers in arms good luck and safe return home. Even if you can't put the fire out you are keeping it at bay - THANK YOU for that.

I'm a little confused, by your comment, first you say we are involved in the wrong cause or mission, perhaps even an illigal conflict ,...then say we are keeping them at bay...which would lead me to believe that you agree we should be here fighting them scumbags....and while i thank you for your concern, it sounds like your on the fence....

The reason i even said anything was for 99.9 % of the soldiers here know exactly, what we are here for and why we need to be here, and why we need to stay....and we bring that to this mission every second of everyday we are here....what we need the folks back home to do is bring that same type of energy to this mission, either get us out of here , or throw your support in with us and our fight....because we can not win until you do....with out your support all of our effort is for naught...

[Argus]

... and to a brand-new country US will choose to invade and occupy - Iran, for example...

Or maybe we'll be fighting fascist Russian aggression in Europe and you'll be in an internment camp as an enemy alien.

[Argus]

.

Tapes and confessions are hardly evidence...

The evidence that Al Quaida, headquartered in Afghanistan, was responsible for the 911 attacks is massive, and overwhelming. No serious government or organization anywhere in the world doubts it.

As a matter of fact there's also tons of un-official "evidence" that "proves" that the whole thing was staged...

None, actually. There are simply some kooks, lunatics, tinfoil cap wearers, and brainless, backward denizens of third world shitholes without education who believe in rumors inspired by anti-semitism who want to believe the JEEWS or the CIA did it. Such people should be laughed and ignored.

I guess in the end each person chooses what they want to believe...

Yes, and if one is a simplistic backward supporter of Russian fascist then one can believe all sorts of dumb things.

[PoliticalCitizen]

AG, to some extent I agree with most of your points.

My problem is not the fact of Canadian soldiers being in Afghanistan per se - I'm sure Canada would have a lot of good things that it would like to do there and in a much nicer way then the Soviets did it.

My problem is Canada being a pawn in USA's World War III game that they call "War on Terror".

We do not know their true agenda, we can only guess... Oil Pipeline? Base to attack Iran from? - whatever it may be it is not worth OUR soldiers dying for.

Just to show you (and some big-mouth kids on this forum) that I'm not a "lonely lunatic" that believes 9/11 was organized by USA check out this CANADIAN poll:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...07/911poll.html

It shows over HALF of Canadians blame US for 9/11. Similar polls in USA show at least a third of population believes the same. I'm sure the furhter in the world you go from Washington DC the numbers of people to whom the official story not only sounds false but insults their intelligence will grow. It actually is considered a bad joke...

You're in the army, right? When a plane crashes, does it evaporate into thin air leaving only the engine? LOL

You get the point...

I personally support your effort but both the reason that brought our forces there and USA's agenda in the region are dubious.

[Oleg Bach]

AG, to some extent I agree with most of your points.

My problem is not the fact of Canadian soldiers being in Afghanistan per se - I'm sure Canada would have a lot of good things that it would like to do there and in a much nicer way then the Soviets did it.

My problem is Canada being a pawn in USA's World War III game that they call "War on Terror".

We do not know their true agenda, we can only guess... Oil Pipeline? Base to attack Iran from? - whatever it may be it is not worth OUR soldiers dying for.

Just to show you (and some big-mouth kids on this forum) that I'm not a "lonely lunatic" that believes 9/11 was organized by USA check out this CANADIAN poll:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...07/911poll.html

It shows over HALF of Canadians blame US for 9/11. Similar polls in USA show at least a third of population believes the same. I'm sure the furhter in the world you go from Washington DC the numbers of people to whom the official story not only sounds false but insults their intelligence will grow. It actually is considered a bad joke...

You're in the army, right? When a plane crashes, does it evaporate into thin air leaving only the engine? LOL

You get the point...

I personally support your effort but both the reason that brought our forces there and USA's agenda in the region are dubious.

No party is capable of bring troops home - the influential old gysers than sent them are capable..maybe it's time for our elite to be kind and understand that allowing what is left of the young anglo Christians that are so trusting...to die needlessly for those who seek profit and adventure from the bank tower - should call the whole thing off....a war is when you fight for the survival of a nation and country - Afghanistan is not a threat..to bloody our troops for the amusement of our elite is not acceptable - end of story - bring the boys and girls home - besides they are the lasts of the old anglo breeding stock -TALK ABOUT RACE SUICIDE. I don't see any immigrants laying down their lives for bankers? Do you?

[HisSelf]

We have done our bit for NATO. We've been there longer than we were in Europe for WWII. Not forgetting that we were in the European theatre two years before the Yanks stopped twiddling their thumbs.

We are closing in on 100 of our good people lost in South Afghastlystan.

And all to cover the Bush Backside while he pissed away the world's good will in Iraq.

It is time to say we have done enough. We have met our obligations. If the Americans had lead this battle, it would have been over by now. Instead they used us to cover their backside while they pissed away their credibility over BS issues.

America, Afghanistan is YOUR problem. We did our bit. Good luck.

PS. I would just like to add that I have mentioned our contribution in Afghastlystan in American-based fora and I have been greeted with derision and hooting. I have seen posts deriding us because our equipment is not good enough. I have seen posts deriding us because our trainig is not good enough. Screw the yanks. Bring our people home.

Edited September 12, 2008 by HisSelf

[Oleg Bach]

We have done our bit for NATO. We've been there longer than we were in Europe for WWII. Not forgetting that we were in the European theatre two years before the Yanks stopped twiddling their thumbs.

We are closing in on 100 of our good people lost in South Afghastlystan.

And all to cover the Bush Backside while he pissed away the world's good will in Iraq.

It is time to say we have done enough. We have met our obligations. If the Americans had lead this battle, it would have been over by now. Instead they used us to cover their backside while they pissed away their credibility over BS issues.

America, Afghanistan is YOUR problem. We did our bit. Good luck.

PS. I would just like to add that I have mentioned our contribution in Afghastlystan in American-based fora and I have been greeted with derision and hooting. I have seen posts deriding us because our equipment is not good enough. I have seen posts deriding us because our trainig is not good enough. Screw the yanks. Bring our people home.

The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions - our intent was good - but the decisioin for envolvement was seriously flawed and dellusional - not to mention politically and finacially deceptive...we got taken for a ride - odd how NOW people are looking at the whole thing realistically. Time to leave and let the gangsters sort it out - if there are folks in Afhanistan that want to come here - let them come and leave the place for the crooks - to hell with them...as they say " You can heal the sick but you can not bring back the dead" Gangsters in Afghanistan are dead heads and hopeless primatives. Why help them establish a real nation that will be corrupt and brutal in a year after establishment?

[Moonbox]

America, Afghanistan is YOUR problem. We did our bit. Good luck.

PS. I would just like to add that I have mentioned our contribution in Afghastlystan in American-based fora and I have been greeted with derision and hooting. I have seen posts deriding us because our equipment is not good enough. I have seen posts deriding us because our trainig is not good enough. Screw the yanks. Bring our people home.

Nobody is saying the majority of yanks aren't ignorant just like the majority of Canadians are ignorant as well . If a yank came here and tried to mention how the US has helped Canada (and they have) you'd have Canadians frothing and telling him he is the spawn of Satan's land.

[Army Guy]

My problem is Canada being a pawn in USA's World War III game that they call "War on Terror".

Like it or not we as a nation do have alot of international defense commitments, NATO is just one of many, there are separate ones with the US as well. We must as a nation stand up and honor them all, we can not live under they're protection they provide just when it is suits us.... 9/11 was a direct attack on the US, and our government offered any assistance we could provide....

Lets remember that over 3000 people died that day, well over 20 Canadians, some where forced to jump to thier deaths, definately a response was required. As for being a pawn of the US, we agreed to get on this ride, for the right reasons, nobody knew where it was going to take us, or how it will end. Canada has it own reasons for being here, getting rid of a few terrorists is just one of them.

We do not know their true agenda, we can only guess... Oil Pipeline? Base to attack Iran from? - whatever it may be it is not worth OUR soldiers dying for.

Anything can be twisted or turned to fit any theory, An oil pipe line that has not yet been built and would be years in the making, lets take a look at the cost here, how much has uncle sam put into Afgan as of today, is the investment for one oil pipe line worth it, one i might add could be disable by a small amount of explosives at any time....

Base to attack Iran, like i said the US already has that ability to power project and could open an invasion route any where in Iran with very little notice....it does not need Afgan, and the small amont of US troops inside her...

You're in the army, right? When a plane crashes, does it evaporate into thin air leaving only the engine? LOL

You get the point...

I'm no expert in plane crashes, i once guarded a F-18 crash in germany, it crashed straight down into a parking lot, all that was found was twin tail pipes, at the depth of 30 plus feet, nothing else that looked like an airplane or the pilot...so is it possiable, it was at this crash scene, would it be possiable for an airliner ....like i said i'm no expert...

I personally support your effort but both the reason that brought our forces there and USA's agenda in the region are dubious.

But at the start of this thing the Majority was waving flags and cheering us as we boarded aircraft, everyone knew we where about to carry out our nations policies via the end of a gun barrel...now things have changed, things are not progressing as fast as everyone wants, and they have now changed thier minds...we have grown bored, and this mission is stale....we want another, and we want it now. scream the people ...we have done our time, we have held up our end of the bargin....But we have not!!!!, the job is not done, nor will it by 2011....and the only ones that seem to care is our nations soldiers.

[Argus]

Just to show you (and some big-mouth kids on this forum) that I'm not a "lonely lunatic" that believes 9/11 was organized by USA check out this CANADIAN poll:

The poll says nothing whatever about Canadians believing the US organized 911. It says that people believed that US foreign policy was among the root causes for the attack.

It shows over HALF of Canadians blame US for 9/11.

That is not what it states.

[Army Guy]

We have done our bit for NATO. We've been there longer than we were in Europe for WWII. Not forgetting that we were in the European theatre two years before the Yanks stopped twiddling their thumbs.

No we have not, the job is still not done, there is no time frame or limit to these type of missions.....how long where we in Cyprus...

We are closing in on 100 of our good people lost in South Afghastlystan.

100 is not some magical number, it means no more or no less than number one....perhaps we should take a look at the numbers, and ask the majority of Canadians when they are going to wake up and start doing something....

America, Afghanistan is YOUR problem. We did our bit. Good luck.

No, Afganistan is a world problem and it needs a world solution and as soon as Canadian see that then the sooner we will be able to solve this thing and move on. but hey why let a little thing like pride stop us from acting....i wonder what Canadian soldiers where thinking as the stood at the base of vimy....after everyone said it could not be done or taken....was it "this is frances problem lets go home".....or was it lets make a plan and kick thier ass...

PS. I would just like to add that I have mentioned our contribution in Afghastlystan in American-based fora and I have been greeted with derision and hooting. I have seen posts deriding us because our equipment is not good enough. I have seen posts deriding us because our trainig is not good enough. Screw the yanks. Bring our people home.

Then you should take the time an educate them, our equipment in Afganistan is world class, the LAV III is actually better than the Strikers, or lavs that the Marines are using, better armed, bettered armoured....the Leo IIA6M is one of the most heavily armoured tank in the world today....

most of out other equipment is being used by US forces at this time the RG 31, bufflo IED trucks, etc etc ,.....

What we do lack is helo support, and well the Canadian public is going to have to eat that one, becuase we suck in that dept...

As for our training not being good enough, i wonder how many Bristish and American units have thier plaques hanging in Canadian unit halls expressing how greatful they are for having Canadian soldiers save thier butts....in the south , on the ground we are the heavy wieghts, we have the armour, the troops, and we are the Calvary that comes riding to the rescue....

Wonder how many other countries have had presidential unit citations awarded to them for thier actions with US forces, how many recieved medals of bravery such as the silver , and bronze stars, why is it that everyone when given the choice calls for the Canadians....

Our training is second to none, don't let anyone take that away from us....our soldiers are as brave as the americans, plus we can do more with less, something our government taught us along time ago.... besides i'll let you in on a small secret, our balls are actually bigger, comes for years of drinking real beer and living with real women....YA thier beer is not bad, and thier women are good looking , but what can i say can't argue again'st science, and we'll just have to learn to live with bigger balls and real women.....