Army Guy Posted August 19, 2008 Report Posted August 19, 2008 I have to admit that for an army guy your argument is quite eloquent: I've got that a few times in the past, Army guys are not suppose to be capable of thinking outside the "killing realm"....But it normally comes from peace niks, whom think they have all the answers, but truly don't and are struggling with life as the rest of us do. And this is thier small way of contributing to society. your not one of them are you ? 300, to be exact. Russia stretched their forces thin and they could not go on invading Europe 300 years is a long time to have your forces stretched thin, maybe they just were having to much fun in Russia....but saying that you saved europe from invasion is a bit of a stretch ....perhaps you can say the same thing about america, Russia stretch the Nazi's so thin it prevented them from directly attacking the US... Russia and Austria defeated the Ottoman Empire (I hope you're familiar with that term). In case your history classes skipped this "detail", check any source on the web, for example Encyclopedia Britannica Very familar with the term, however you did state they both defeated the ottoman empire, but i'm pretty sure that thier actual final defeat was well after those dates you gave me, in fact when the world was busy carving up the ottoman empire what did the Russia government get...or maybe it was just my history books... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jbg Posted August 19, 2008 Report Posted August 19, 2008 Yes, there was an attack on 9/11... but it was not an aggression and even less an invasion...Breathtaking. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 19, 2008 Author Report Posted August 19, 2008 I've got that a few times in the past, Army guys are not suppose to be capable of thinking outside the "killing realm"....But it normally comes from peace niks, whom think they have all the answers, but truly don't and are struggling with life as the rest of us do. And this is thier small way of contributing to society. your not one of them are you ?300 years is a long time to have your forces stretched thin, maybe they just were having to much fun in Russia....but saying that you saved europe from invasion is a bit of a stretch ....perhaps you can say the same thing about america, Russia stretch the Nazi's so thin it prevented them from directly attacking the US... Very familar with the term, however you did state they both defeated the ottoman empire, but i'm pretty sure that thier actual final defeat was well after those dates you gave me, in fact when the world was busy carving up the ottoman empire what did the Russia government get...or maybe it was just my history books... I did not mean to offend you in any way, just some of your original comments were made in a condescending tone. Also you are correct - I am not a history scolar. My point was that regardless of how small of how different the general American knowledge is about Russia, as a country it played an immense role in the history of Eurasia. Quote You are what you do.
DogOnPorch Posted August 19, 2008 Report Posted August 19, 2008 DogonPorchCivil War... again no foreign invading forces. I'm certainly aware of that. Either way, the Civil War was more destructive to the US than both World Wars combined. One might have asked a citizen of Atlanta if the Union Army was an invading force...I think I can guess the answer. -------------------------------------------- A house divided against itself cannot stand. ---President Abraham Lincoln Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted August 20, 2008 Report Posted August 20, 2008 I did not mean to offend you in any way, just some of your original comments were made in a condescending tone.Also you are correct - I am not a history scolar. Your right , and for that i appoligize, i guess we are all alittle tired of hearing how one side single handedly won this conflict or that conflict, when it was truely a effort of many countries and millions of individuals that deserve to recongized for thier efforts. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted August 20, 2008 Report Posted August 20, 2008 My point was that regardless of how small of how different the general American knowledge is about Russia, as a country it played an immense role in the history of Eurasia. Yes it has, but alot of that has not been pretty, and a dark cloud hangs over alot of those accomplishments. Don't get me wrong i don't dislike Russians, just mother Russia and what she stands for.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
jbg Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 I'm certainly aware of that. Either way, the Civil War was more destructive to the US than both World Wars combined. One might have asked a citizen of Atlanta if the Union Army was an invading force...I think I can guess the answer.And yet the Deep South is the most uber-patriotic part of the US. Go figure. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
DogOnPorch Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Your right , and for that i appoligize, i guess we are all alittle tired of hearing how one side single handedly won this conflict or that conflict, when it was truely a effort of many countries and millions of individuals that deserve to recongized for thier efforts. No matter what one's view of the Soviet Union during WW2, it did tie up the vast bulk of the German military for most of the duration. Literally 100s of full sized infantry divisions and dozens of over-strength motorized/panzer divisions spent from 41-45 on that front including the Waffen-SS. However, it is a two way street, as Allied bombers forced much of the Luftwaffe to be withdrawn from the East Front to the Home Front...both aircraft and flak units. This left the vast Red Airforce with only a token amount of Luftwaffe units facing them allowing for near full air superiority from 1944 to the end of the War in Europe. No wonder the majority of the Red Airforce was ground attack aircraft like the IL-2... ------------------------------------------------- Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach. ---Joseph Stalin Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 No matter what one's view of the Soviet Union during WW2, it did tie up the vast bulk of the German military for most of the duration. Literally 100s of full sized infantry divisions and dozens of over-strength motorized/panzer divisions spent from 41-45 on that front including the Waffen-SS. Right, but the Soviets did not do so without critical help with war materials from the Americans and others. The Allies won WW2...that's about all that can be said, despite a plethora of web forums wishing to debate otherwise. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Right, but the Soviets did not do so without critical help with war materials from the Americans and others. The Allies won WW2...that's about all that can be said, despite a plethora of web forums wishing to debate otherwise. Yes indeed. The US 6x6 truck in its various makes n' models were essential for Russia's war effort. The Persian Corridor in particular was useful to the Soviets and, ironically, today's Iran. Who built all those pretty airports and highways in Iran? Why the good ol' USA...of course. ------------------------------------------------- I think we should take Iraq and Iran and combine them into one country and call it Irate. All the pissed off people live in one place and get it over with. ---Denis Leary Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 And yet the Deep South is the most uber-patriotic part of the US. Go figure. Possibly from that 'Daughters of the South/Confederacy' movement of the post-Civil War years? One needed to appear especially patriotic in the post war South in order to have any groups or associations such as for Veterans. At first only Southern women were allowed to form them (thus the UDC). -------------------------------------------------- The South is dry and will vote dry. That is, everybody sober enough to stagger to the polls will. ---Will Rogers Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Posted August 22, 2008 Your right , and for that i appoligize, i guess we are all alittle tired of hearing how one side single handedly won this conflict or that conflict, when it was truely a effort of many countries and millions of individuals that deserve to recongized for thier efforts. I agree. Honestly though - if Japan would have attacked USSR at the East as it was supposed to instead of attacking US Soviet Union would probably be gone in that war... and that could have made a lot of western countries happy (let the Nazis kill the Commies, yeah!) Just kidding Unfortunately since WW2 because of Capitalism / Socialism and now because of US Fight for World Domination / Russia Fight for Region Domination US and Russia are in a standoff. What the 2 countries may not be realizing is that by trying to screw each other up (in a politically correct way, mostly) the only side that gains is the Islamic World, which is happy to see any of the non-islamic states weakened. - US armed Jihad warriors in Afganistan - USSR lost a bloody war and Afganistan from an almost Socialist state fell to pre-historic times; - US supported "Kosovar Albanians" to chop a big piece out of Serbia, while some of Al-Qaeda training camps exist (ed) in Albania; - US armed and sent special forces (allegedly), some of them via Georgia (allegedly) to support the Jihad warriors in Chechnya; - Russia helps Iran with nuclear reactors and Iran feels bolder in its hope to attack Israel; - Russia has good relations with Syria and may deploy rockets there; etc. Meanwhile both countries are on the Islamiosphere's black list. US is engaged in 2 Islamic countries and wants to take on a third. Russia finally "pacified" its in-house Jihadians. Somehow what's happening seems to be the perfect recipie for disaster... on world scale... Hey jbg - I brought the Islam back into discussion Just please don't compare it to Marxism... it's like comparing cavemen's chants to symphony... or a Russian military choir song, he-he... Quote You are what you do.
DogOnPorch Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 (edited) PC: US armed Jihad warriors in Afganistan - USSR lost a bloody war and Afganistan from an almost Socialist state fell to pre-historic times. While the US did hand out some weapons like the Stinger on a limited basis, the average 'Jihad Warrior' is still armed via the gun markets of Pakistan rather than by the USA. Here's a vid on one such gun market...apparently the planet's largest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9xf62PKC5M -------------------------------------------- Happiness is a warm gun... ---The Beatles Edited August 22, 2008 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Posted August 22, 2008 While the US did hand out some weapons like the Stinger on a limited basis, the average 'Jihad Warrior' is still armed via the gun markets of Pakistan rather than by the USA.Here's a vid on one such gun market...apparently the planet's largest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9xf62PKC5M -------------------------------------------- Happiness is a warm gun... ---The Beatles Wow... no wander they keep coming and coming... Hey, if you guys are curious - check out some Tunguska's in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3f_pEy81o Quote You are what you do.
DogOnPorch Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Wow... no wander they keep coming and coming...Hey, if you guys are curious - check out some Tunguska's in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3f_pEy81o Looks fairly effective. Not sure if I'd want to be in one, though. The basic design of an organic (part of a unit rather than a unit itself) flak AFV goes back to WW2's Flak Panzer IV (Wirbelwind). Even further if you take into account the Sd.kfz 7/1 20mm Flakwagen, etc. What it does say is that A-10 Warthogs are a real threat on the battlefield...lol. ---------------------------------------------------------- Responsibility is a heavy responsibility! ---Cheech: Cheech y Chong Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
M.Dancer Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Wow... no wander they keep coming and coming...Hey, if you guys are curious - check out some Tunguska's in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L3f_pEy81o Wow...1980s technology!!! The ADATS Low level air defence units in Canada are pretty much the same vintage.... http://www.army-technology.com/projects/adats/ ....except they probably work. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Hey jbg - I brought the Islam back into discussion Just please don't compare it to Marxism... it's like comparing cavemen's chants to symphony... or a Russian military choir song, he-he... The problem is that they do share something in common; their illiberality and hatred of the West. While totalitarians are notorious for squabbles among themselves (after all Hitler and Ribbentrop didn't get along for all that long) in the long term they are bad for the West's health. The problem is that the West does have to pick allies in other parts of the world and Jeffersonian Democrats with real influence are not available everywhere. The US does have to make choices among bad alternatives fairly often, i.e. jihadis vs. Communists in Afghanistan, or Musharaff v. "hard core" jihadis in Pakistan, or among different caudillos in Central and South America. The number of perfect choices is limited. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Posted August 22, 2008 Wow...1980s technology!!!The ADATS Low level air defence units in Canada are pretty much the same vintage.... http://www.army-technology.com/projects/adats/ ....except they probably work. ADATS are not even close... Tunguska's combine cannons with rockets. Check out also Kashtan-M (too bad there's no English version): Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 22, 2008 Author Report Posted August 22, 2008 The problem is that they do share something in common; their illiberality and hatred of the West. While totalitarians are notorious for squabbles among themselves (after all Hitler and Ribbentrop didn't get along for all that long) in the long term they are bad for the West's health. The problem is that the West does have to pick allies in other parts of the world and Jeffersonian Democrats with real influence are not available everywhere. The US does have to make choices among bad alternatives fairly often, i.e. jihadis vs. Communists in Afghanistan, or Musharaff v. "hard core" jihadis in Pakistan, or among different caudillos in Central and South America. The number of perfect choices is limited. Socialist scientists vs. suicide bombers... Hmmm... You're right, it's a tough choice... Quote You are what you do.
AngusThermopyle Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 (edited) Development Summary: The electro-optic sensors associated with the system include an infra-red localiser to initiate the missile guidance and a TV system which includes an automatic target tracking capability.Production of a new short-range air defence system, the 2S6M Tunguska, began in 1987. This consisted of two radar-directed 30 mm guns supplemented by a new short-range air defence missile system which was given the NATO codename SA-19 'Grisson'. The naval version of the system, which was given the NATO designation CADS-N-1 (Close Air Defence System-Naval) was first observed when the Project 1144 Atomic-Powered Missile Cruiser Kirov (now Admiral Ushakov) was commissioned in October 1988. The CADS-N-1 system armament consists of two 30 mm Gatling type guns and eight SA-N-11 missiles, with the system given the Russian name 'Kortik'. It is believed that the Russian Navy designations for the missiles are 3M87 and 3M88. The export system name in Russian is 'Kashtan'. Sea trials of the system were conducted in a Black Sea Fleet Tarantul II class missile corvette (Missile Cutter in Russian terminology). The system has not been retrofitted into the remainder of the Kirov class but was selected for the Project 1143 Tblisi (now Kuznetsov) class aircraft carriers, Project 1155.1 Large Anti-Submarine Ships (Udaloy II class destroyers) and Project 1154 Large Anti-Submarine Ships (Neustrashimy class frigates). Installations appear to have favoured anti-submarine vessels rather than surface-warfare group forces.At the 2003 International Maritime Defence Show (IMDAS-2003), KBP exhibited the upgraded Kashtan modification - the Kashtan-M, the upgraded version featuring increased coverage, Interesting system, still 80's tech but interesting. I'm wondering how it will fair when the American High Fly research project produces the new missiles, pretty hard to hit a small target travelling at Mach 6+. Russia is producing some decent weapons systems, that can't be denied. However the west is producing better ones and also producing systems that Russia has no equivalent for, such as Laser and supersonic cruise for instance. I don't believe they have much in the way of stealth as applied to surface warships either. Certainly nothing that can compare to the new Zumwalt class of ship. This thing is awesome, it will also utilize the new "advanced gun", the gun will have a range of about 100 nm and use smart ammo, its a 155mm and can fire 12 rounds per minute. The guns alone make the Kashtan obsolete and ineffective. Check it out. Zumwalt, she's a beaut. Edited August 22, 2008 by AngusThermopyle Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
Oleg Bach Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 Interesting system, still 80's tech but interesting. I'm wondering how it will fair when the American High Fly research project produces the new missiles, pretty hard to hit a small target travelling at Mach 6+. Russia is producing some decent weapons systems, that can't be denied. However the west is producing better ones and also producing systems that Russia has no equivalent for, such as Laser and supersonic cruise for instance. I don't believe they have much in the way of stealth as applied to surface warships either. Certainly nothing that can compare to the new Zumwalt class of ship. This thing is awesome, it will also utilize the new "advanced gun", the gun will have a range of about 100 nm and use smart ammo, its a 155mm and can fire 12 rounds per minute. The guns alone make the Kashtan obsolete and ineffective. Check it out. Zumwalt, she's a beaut. What's with the recital of specs? These toys that facinate so much kill people eventually. Boys and toys I suppose. You would think that we would have evolved to the point of not exterminating others for fun and profit...barbaric - is not to strong a term. Quote
AngusThermopyle Posted August 22, 2008 Report Posted August 22, 2008 What's with the recital of specs? Well considering that I spent 20 years in the military and served with all three elements I do sort of have some interest in the subject. As much as some would bemoan military technology and development it can not be denied that this development has spawned and encouraged a great many advances that have beneffited everyone. A prime example of this is what we're using at this very moment, the internet. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
jbg Posted August 23, 2008 Report Posted August 23, 2008 Socialist scientists vs. suicide bombers...Hmmm... You're right, it's a tough choice... I wouldn't call Taraki, who seized power in Afghanistan in one of the bloodiest coups in history, a "political scientist". Ditto Josef Stalin. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 23, 2008 Author Report Posted August 23, 2008 I wouldn't call Taraki, who seized power in Afghanistan in one of the bloodiest coups in history, a "political scientist". Ditto Josef Stalin. Agreed. But comparing him or Amin to Taliban's masterminds I think the choice is easy... What "Science"? Read nothing but Koran, sing nothing but verses from Koran... Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 25, 2008 Author Report Posted August 25, 2008 Medvedev just said in an interview that there will be no negative consequences for Russia if the NATO - Russia relationship disappears. He said that during this relation Russia was continuously told not to worry while NATO kept absorbing countries and building military bases closer and closer to its borders. Quote You are what you do.
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