Canada's Gas Prices

August1991 · July 24, 2008

I was thinking more along the lines that one day America might insist we sell only to them. Look at what happens when suppliers don't comply with Walmart's buying policies.

No one is forced to sell to Walmart, anymore than anyone is forced to shop there.

They only refuse to buy our lumber, on the other hand they'll take all the timber we can send them.

Huh?

I wouldn't crow too loudly. The time is rapidly approaching when Uncle Sam is going to be desperate for our freshwater.

And Americans will pay honestly to buy it - assuming they really need it.

The problem though is that some governments are subsidizing the commodity and suppliers are more than happy to keep selling to them.

Huh?

Mr. Hydraboss, I do hope you are blaming Ontario in general and not myself in particular when you make accusations about voting Liberal. I am most emphatically NOT a Liberal voter!
You speak as if every single Ontarioan voted Liberal. As if they received 100% of the votes. True, a majority of seats consistently did but in terms of the popular vote it was hardly so one-sided. A huge number of us lived through those years in helpless horror.

Thanks for the sympathy!

You are obviously a strong Albertan separatist. I can understand your point of view. I still have perhaps the very first Reform membership cards issued to Ontario. I've talked with many folks of your persuasion.

WB, you make very good points. Hydraboss is an Albertan separatist and it's too bad that Albertan posters such as Kimmy (do a search) are not around to put him in place. There are some Albertans as generous of spirit as you are.

Hydraboss forgets that the world price can go down, as well as up. IME, Albertans (outside of rural farming folk) have a gold town mentality. Easy come, easy go. The combination of oil and farming makes for a curious mix of people who live by chance but think they did it all themselves.

Wilber · July 24, 2008

I was thinking more along the lines that one day America might insist we sell only to them. Look at what happens when suppliers don't comply with Walmart's buying policies.

You mean whowhere is an American?

Hydraboss · July 24, 2008

WB, you make very good points. Hydraboss is an Albertan separatist and it's too bad that Albertan posters such as Kimmy (do a search) are not around to put him in place. There are some Albertans as generous of spirit as you are.
Hydraboss forgets that the world price can go down, as well as up. IME, Albertans (outside of rural farming folk) have a gold town mentality. Easy come, easy go. The combination of oil and farming makes for a curious mix of people who live by chance but think they did it all themselves.

Now hold on a minute August. First of all, while I enjoy Kimmy's posts...she is young and through the years when Alberta was in the toilet, she was learning to use one. Do not ever judge the generous spirit of Albertans - toward other Albertans. Kimmy wouldn't know step one of how to "put me in my place" and neither do you.

I also, most assuredly, do NOT forget that the world oil price can go down. In other threads I have relayed my all-too-real experiences from desperate times in this province. It is obvious by your posts that you have absolutely no idea regarding Albertan "mentality". No insult intended, just fact. Albertans DID do it (create success) all ourselves, in spite of what eastern Canada did to us. I am quite sure you will call that revisionist thinking or something similar. Again, that is your best-guess opinion.

Albertans have shared, most of the time unwillingly, with the rest of Canada for generations. Would our seperation greatly affect the ROC? Financially, you bet. Who would fund Kwebek's stay at home (men, women and children) daycare programs? Who would pay for fountains in Shawinigate? Who would pay for no-transfer-of-goods "Pro-Kwebek" programs? I have never denied that Ontario has been a contributor to the theft known as Transfer Payments. That being said, per capita, Ontario is nowhere even close to contributions from Alberta and once they become a "have not" then all the burden will be concentrated on us...us meaning me and my kids. We are nothing more than a colony in the eyes of the east.

August1991 · July 24, 2008

Albertans have shared, most of the time unwillingly, with the rest of Canada for generations. Would our seperation greatly affect the ROC? Financially, you bet.

Shared? Financially?

Hydraboss, if Albertans are not happy, they can leave. If you are not happy, you can leave. A federal state, a democracy, is a referendum every day.

It is rare for me to be so federalist, but I think Canada has been good for Albertans. I can't say exactly the same in Quebec.

Hydraboss · July 24, 2008

Shared? Financially?
Hydraboss, if Albertans are not happy, they can leave. If you are not happy, you can leave. A federal state, a democracy, is a referendum every day.

It is rare for me to be so federalist, but I think Canada has been good for Albertans. I can't say exactly the same in Quebec.

And if the referendum were to be 50+1% in favor of seperation, you would support the motion?

Canada has NOT been good for Alberta. Alberta has been necessary for Canada. And of course you can't say exactly the same in Kwebek...nothing anyone in Canada does is ever good enough for Kwebek. Poor, poor Kwebek. Downtrodden to the last.

Wild Bill · July 24, 2008

And if the referendum were to be 50+1% in favor of seperation, you would support the motion?
Canada has NOT been good for Alberta. Alberta has been necessary for Canada. And of course you can't say exactly the same in Kwebek...nothing anyone in Canada does is ever good enough for Kwebek. Poor, poor Kwebek. Downtrodden to the last.

Well, I'd respect 50 +1%! I believe that if you have to force a country to stay together then you've already lost.

That being said, I would expect whatever party is in Ottawa to look out for the rest of Canada's interests in the separation agreement. Once you're out, you're all the way out. No currency, no passports, no old age pension.

However, I don't see much positive in debating with you. Frankly, you sound to me like a western version of a Pequiste. You lead with your heart and not your head. That's your right and I respect it but when you talk about the entire population of a province like Ontario as if they are all of one mind and intent I no longer credit your argument. When you include ME as a Liberal supporter you come across as a simple zealot.

It's also my right to refuse to debate with those who I find to be overly emotional. So I'm going to add you to my "ignore" list and wish you a good day.

Good Day!

Edited July 24, 2008 by Wild Bill

eyeball · July 25, 2008

Huh?

Most logs from BC go straight south.

Huh?

China and India, for starters, both subsidize the price of fuel and suppliers are lining up. I can't think of any better way to force global prices to be artificially higher than they should be, can you?

whowhere · July 27, 2008

Amazing, how some posters are routing this thread. These posters are engaging in the politics of divide and distract meanwhile the oil companies make off with Canada's hard earned GDP and the US deflects attention off itself as they are only interested in what they can take from Canada without giving anything back for it.

The truth is we are in a new world dynamic. There is no way to have known when NAFTA was inked there would be European Union in 2000. NAFTA is not good for Canada because all it has done was make Canada a place for Foreign Companies to set up shop to gain access to the US market. This also brought in US companies into Canada to take advantage of NAFTA and the dollar difference. This was fine when the Canadian dollar was below the value of the US dollar because there was a cost advantage. This advantage is no longer the case, so foreign companies will think twice about puting money into Canada and US companies are throwing Canadians out of work to shift work back to the US.

It's time for NAFTA to be scraped. It's time for Canada to channel the oil to be refined by Canadian refiner's and be sold to the US and the world at Market prices while Canadians get their oil at a price to stimulate Canadian growth and innovation. In turn this innovation can be marketed to the world in a controled fashion. Canada in its current form is a hallowed out shell that is being exploited by the US and other foreign companies.

For those in Alberta to talk about seperation is odd. What platform are those who incite separation coming from? Quebec has its reasons, and they are good ones. Alberta on the otherhand would be solely a grab to keep the oil for itself. Well, the fact is, the Queen is the sovereign of Canada and Alberta. Technality, she own's Canada and all it's resources. Canada's provincial status quo is one of provincial evolution/autonomy. At not so long ago, the people of Canada were subjects not citizens. There is no historical event that has made Canada independent of the monarch. Yes, the 1982 Constitution gave Canada a mechanism to change the constitution without the Queen's involvement but nonetheless she is still the crown.

The point is, STOP being distracted from looking out For Canada and Canadians in general. As canadians are distracted, Canada is being taken advantage of by the US and foreign multinational companies. Stop the distraction and start looking out for Canada and develop a made in Canada attitude to charge against the New World dynamic.

The US GDP has slipped from 50% to 24%. Their GDP will continue to slip and they will increasingly became irrelevant. The US is a nation of rust and decline. They are living on Borrowed money and have become a vehicle to defraud world investors of their hard earned savings. It is obvious the US has cultivated an attitude of entitlement, but this entitlement can't come at Canada's and the Canadian's expense.

So, Scrap Nafta, and establish a copy cat law of the US requiring oil be made available to canada first for use by Canada before being sold on the world markets.

Wilber · July 27, 2008

It's time for NAFTA to be scraped. It's time for Canada to channel the oil to be refined by Canadian refiner's and be sold to the US and the world at Market prices while Canadians get their oil at a price to stimulate Canadian growth and innovation. In turn this innovation can be marketed to the world in a controled fashion. Canada in its current form is a hallowed out shell that is being exploited by the US and other foreign companies.

You don't stimulate innovation by artificially maintaining the status quo, you do exactly the opposite.

For those in Alberta to talk about seperation is odd. What platform are those who incite separation coming from? Quebec has its reasons, and they are good ones. Alberta on the otherhand would be solely a grab to keep the oil for itself.

Poppycock. They don't want to "grab" anything. Anyone can buy the stuff, they just expect market value for what is theirs like everyone else does for anything they own. Why shouldn't the rest of Canada be able to buy gold, silver or any other mineral or resource produced in Canada at 1/3 of it's market value? If you're looking to see who wants to "grab", just look in the mirror.

bush_cheney2004 · July 27, 2008

Amazing, how some posters are routing this thread. These posters are engaging in the politics of divide and distract meanwhile the oil companies make off with Canada's hard earned GDP and the US deflects attention off itself as they are only interested in what they can take from Canada without giving anything back for it.

You wouldn't have dick without US and other foreign investment capital all those years....good and bad years.

The truth is we are in a new world dynamic. There is no way to have known when NAFTA was inked there would be European Union in 2000. NAFTA is not good for Canada because all it has done was make Canada a place for Foreign Companies to set up shop to gain access to the US market. This also brought in US companies into Canada to take advantage of NAFTA and the dollar difference. This was fine when the Canadian dollar was below the value of the US dollar because there was a cost advantage. This advantage is no longer the case, so foreign companies will think twice about puting money into Canada and US companies are throwing Canadians out of work to shift work back to the US.

Then notify the USA and Mexico about Canada's intention to abbrogate NAFTA (only requires six months notice). Good luck with that.

It's time for NAFTA to be scraped. It's time for Canada to channel the oil to be refined by Canadian refiner's and be sold to the US and the world at Market prices while Canadians get their oil at a price to stimulate Canadian growth and innovation. In turn this innovation can be marketed to the world in a controled fashion. Canada in its current form is a hallowed out shell that is being exploited by the US and other foreign companies.

Will Canadian corporations stop their international operations as well? I think not. So much copper...so little time.

For those in Alberta to talk about seperation is odd. What platform are those who incite separation coming from? Quebec has its reasons, and they are good ones. Alberta on the otherhand would be solely a grab to keep the oil for itself. Well, the fact is, the Queen is the sovereign of Canada and Alberta. Technality, she own's Canada and all it's resources. Canada's provincial status quo is one of provincial evolution/autonomy. At not so long ago, the people of Canada were subjects not citizens. There is no historical event that has made Canada independent of the monarch. Yes, the 1982 Constitution gave Canada a mechanism to change the constitution without the Queen's involvement but nonetheless she is still the crown.

See the Clarity Act...also applies to Alberta, or any other province. AS far as Her Majesty goes, give us a call down here to find out how to solve that.

The point is, STOP being distracted from looking out For Canada and Canadians in general. As canadians are distracted, Canada is being taken advantage of by the US and foreign multinational companies. Stop the distraction and start looking out for Canada and develop a made in Canada attitude to charge against the New World dynamic.

Canada's market is disadvantaged by size and distribution....but at least you have protected "Canadian content" on the telly.

The US GDP has slipped from 50% to 24%. Their GDP will continue to slip and they will increasingly became irrelevant. The US is a nation of rust and decline. They are living on Borrowed money and have become a vehicle to defraud world investors of their hard earned savings. It is obvious the US has cultivated an attitude of entitlement, but this entitlement can't come at Canada's and the Canadian's expense.

The USA remains the largest national economy on the planet with a growing GDP (not slipping); the single state of California has a larger GDP than all of Canada.

So, Scrap Nafta, and establish a copy cat law of the US requiring oil be made available to canada first for use by Canada before being sold on the world markets.

More irony...scrap NAFTA and copy the Americans.

whowhere · July 27, 2008

You don't stimulate innovation by artificially maintaining the status quo, you do exactly the opposite.
Poppycock. They don't want to "grab" anything. Anyone can buy the stuff, they just expect market value for what is theirs like everyone else does for anything they own. Why shouldn't the rest of Canada be able to buy gold, silver or any other mineral or resource produced in Canada at 1/3 of it's market value? If you're looking to see who wants to "grab", just look in the mirror.

Your answer is strange. Unless you are the oil company, how are you benefiting from world oil prices? If you are refering to your employment and royalty rebate checks this money has already been factored into the $20 per barrel price. Any money above this is going into the oil companies or speculators pocket and is siphoning Canada's hard earned GDP with it. Your logic makes as much sense as when the Federal Government rakes in a Federal Surplus at the end year and keeps the money for itself is somehow a benefit to Canadians in General. However, the truth is, Canadians in General do not benefit from Canada's surpluses. All it demonstrates they are being overtaxed and denied/deprived infrastructure investments.

Wilber · July 27, 2008

Your answer is strange. Unless you are the oil company, how are you benefiting from world oil prices? If you are refering to your employment and royalty rebate checks this money has already been factored into the $20 per barrel price. Any money above this is going into the oil companies or speculators pocket and is siphoning Canada's hard earned GDP with it. Your logic makes as much sense as when the Federal Government rakes in a Federal Surplus at the end year and keeps the money for itself is somehow a benefit to Canadians in General. However, the truth is, Canadians in General do not benefit from Canada's surpluses. All it demonstrates they are being overtaxed and denied/deprived infrastructure investments.

Not strange at all. Are you advocating the nationalization of the oil industry? Are you willing to compensate the companies involved for the billions they have invested and take over exploration and production yourself? Are you willing to deal with any political and foreign retaliation from such an action? If Dion speaks of tariffs according to a company's carbon footprint, why wouldn't other countries impose tariffs on Canadian goods that refect the world price of oil? You speak of producers and speculators like they are some sort of blood sucking criminals, yet without them taking risks and investing you would be walking to your job. Wait a minute, you probably wouldn't have a job to walk to. Do you really think they would roll over or would they tell you to take a hike and go elsewhere like they did during the NEP?

Edited July 27, 2008 by Wilber

whowhere · July 27, 2008

Not strange at all. Are you advocating the nationalization of the oil industry? Are you willing to compensate the companies involved for the billions they have invested and take over exploration and production yourself?

If its costing 20 per barrel to extract the oil from Canada and the oil companies are selling this oil at world oil prices they are making $100 per barrel. Canada producing 3 million barrels per day. Canada is using 2.3 million barrels per day. Canada's Economy is bleeding 184 million dollars per day to the oil compannies and speculators. A Billion dollars a week in dead money is being taken from Canada. After the refiner's get the oil, they inflate the gas prices at the pumps to cover world oil prices. Canadians in turn pay high gas taxes on which incorporates this 1 billion dollars in dead money. Canadians are not only getting this 1 Billion dollars stolen from them each week, they are paying inflated Gas taxes on this money as well. The oil companies have already recovered their invested money. All they are doing is exploited Canada for all its worth.

Are you willing to deal with any political and foreign retaliation from such an action? If Dion speaks of tariffs according to a company's carbon footprint, why wouldn't other countries impose tariffs on Canadian goods that refect the world price of oil?

What retaliation? Canada is resource rich country. Canada has the tools to be self sufficient.

You speak of producers and speculators like they are some sort of blood sucking criminals, yet without them taking risks and investing you would be walking to your job. Wait a minute, you probably wouldn't have a job to walk to. Do you really think they would roll over or would they tell you to take a hike and go elsewhere like they did during the NEP?

In case you haven't heard the economies are tanking. Employers are unwilling to pay the costs of vehicle ownership/fuel/insurance and because of this they are closing up shop in Canada and moving out. Canada has been hallowed out, there is no allegiance to Canada. The only allegiance is the exploitation of Canada for their own gain. It's obvious you don't mind selling out Canada for your own gain.

You ought to disclose to this thread if your income is 1/ Affiliated with the oil companies 2/ You are a foreign national 3/ or you get your income from taxpayers.

If you fall into any of these areas, your opinion means squat.

Wilber · July 27, 2008

What retaliation? Canada is resource rich country. Canada has the tools to be self sufficient.

Nonsense, we can't even feed ourselves. What do you mean, what retaliation? We are an exporting country. You weren't whining a decade ago when oil was around $12 a barrel oil producing companies in Canada were having a tough time. The oil business is great right now if you are a producer or government collecting the taxes but if you are a refiner or retailer is actually worse. You just want others to take the risks and do the investing while you sit on your ass and collect the cheques.

Gold is up over 300% in the past two years. I still want to buy mine from Ontario mines for $250 an ounce. How about it.

M.Dancer · July 27, 2008

If you fall into any of these areas, your opinion means squat.

If you don't have any interests or knowledge of the subject, which so far you haven't shown, your opinion means squat. Telling others their opinion means squat from you, given the facts you pulls from your nether regions and a complete disregard for veracity is the acme of irony.

whowhere · July 28, 2008

If you don't have any interests or knowledge of the subject, which so far you haven't shown, your opinion means squat. Telling others their opinion means squat from you, given the facts you pulls from your nether regions and a complete disregard for veracity is the acme of irony.

It amazes me how you jump into a thread Say nothing, throw a few insults, and posture yourself as an all knowing wise one of a topic. Same something or else fak off!!

whowhere · July 28, 2008

The oil business is great right now if you are a producer or government collecting the taxes but if you are a refiner or retailer is actually worse.

If you listen to the media, the refiners are claiming they are losing money because they have to much refined gas. Really?, then lower prices to get rid of it! The refiners claim they are at the mercy of world oil prices and we need to feel sorry for them and accept the price at the pump. The reality is, they influence world oil prices. If the refiners honestly believe speculators are screwing with their input costs, what is stopping refiners from stock piling oil to be refined whenever. The oil sat underground for 1000's of years, what's a few more years sitting above ground in storage tanks. There is no business in the world that doesn't look for ways to cut input costs. For a refiner to accept world oil prices without looking for ways to drive this cost down shows they are disengineous.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 28, 2008

How many independent refineries are in your area? I live close to Edmonton and can tell you that these operations are simply part of a bigger picture. Around here the only independents are the drillers and the rest of the service industries providing support and logistics for the big oil companies. The lease owners, the refiners and the retailers are own big company. From the ground to the pump its one big corporate chain. There are some independent retailers with pumps, but that is the extent of it. So the "refiners" are simply part of the corporate operation. They get their oil from wells leased by their own company. They can charge themselves what they want, and they want to charge big, so there you have it.

Wilber · July 28, 2008

The oil sat underground for 1000's of years, what's a few more years sitting above ground in storage tanks.

The same goes for gold. I still want mine for $250 and ounce. When is going to sink in that the price of something depends on what someone is willing to pay for it, not what someone is willing to sell it for?

There is no business in the world that doesn't look for ways to cut input costs. For a refiner to accept world oil prices without looking for ways to drive this cost down shows they are disengineous.

Then why weren't you stock piling gasoline when it was cheap?

M.Dancer · July 28, 2008

It amazes me how you jump into a thread Say nothing, throw a few insults, and posture yourself as an all knowing wise one of a topic. Same something or else fak off!!

I'm sure the light dancing off the ripples in the pond amazes you as well....not that that means much.

It wasn't an insult, it's a statement. Someone who has bee factually worng as you in such as short time here either refrains from telling other people they are wrong and their opinions are worthless or they do and look like a pompous know nothings....your choice.

whowhere · July 29, 2008

I'm sure the light dancing off the ripples in the pond amazes you as well....not that that means much.
It wasn't an insult, it's a statement. Someone who has bee factually worng as you in such as short time here either refrains from telling other people they are wrong and their opinions are worthless or they do and look like a pompous know nothings....your choice.

dumcer strikes again. I can see why you have so many posts. Thanks for enlightening the thread with your wisdom. Do come again.

August1991 · July 29, 2008

If you listen to the media, the refiners are claiming they are losing money because they have to much refined gas. Really?, then lower prices to get rid of it! The refiners claim they are at the mercy of world oil prices and we need to feel sorry for them and accept the price at the pump. The reality is, they influence world oil prices. If the refiners honestly believe speculators are screwing with their input costs, what is stopping refiners from stock piling oil to be refined whenever. The oil sat underground for 1000's of years, what's a few more years sitting above ground in storage tanks. There is no business in the world that doesn't look for ways to cut input costs. For a refiner to accept world oil prices without looking for ways to drive this cost down shows they are disengineous.

Influence world prices? Why didn't they influence world prices last year, or the year before? Why now? I'm confused.

Whowhere, you seem to understand all of this so well, will the refiners make world prices go up further? (Please PM me because my brother-in-law is thinking of putting some money on the NY commodity exchange. His daughter needs medical help and there's a long list at the hospital in Canada. A hospital in Ohio will offer the service but for a price.)

Whowhere, what will happen to the world price of oil? Will it go up, or down? You seem to understand these things.

Edited July 29, 2008 by August1991

whowhere · July 29, 2008

Influence world prices? Why didn't they influence world prices last year, or the year before? Why now? I'm confused.
Whowhere, you seem to understand all of this so well, will the refiners make world prices go up further? (Please PM me because my brother-in-law is thinking of putting some money on the NY commodity exchange. His daughter needs medical help and there's a long list at the hospital in Canada. A hospital in Ohio will offer the service but for a price.)

Whowhere, what will happen to the world price of oil? Will it go up, or down? You seem to understand these things.

I guess you don't watch the news. WATCH THE F'ING NEWS!! Petro Canada is crying poor because their refinery has an oversupply of refined gasoline. They claim current gas prices don't reflect current oil prices. They are to low. They claimed they are not the ones making all the money from the high cost of oil, the produces are. Yeah, that's right, the greedy alberta oil companies selling Canadians their oil and the refiners crying poor because they have no control over world oil prices.

Because Canada produces more oil than it uses, there is no need for Canadians to be held hostage by world oil prices. They have a vote and they can elect politicians that will not pander to the United States or Oil companies.

Wilber · July 29, 2008

Because Canada produces more oil than it uses, there is no need for Canadians to be held hostage by world oil prices. They have a vote and they can elect politicians that will not pander to the United States or Oil companies.

Why should we be held hostage to world gold, copper or nickel prices either? I still want my gold for $250 an ounce. Are you proposing that Canada isolate its economy ala the Soviet Union (sure worked well for them) or just this one commodity that you want for less than it is worth?

M.Dancer · July 29, 2008

Why should we be held hostage to world gold, copper or nickel prices either? I still want my gold for $250 an ounce. Are you proposing that Canada isolate its economy ala the Soviet Union (sure worked well for them) or just this one commodity that you want for less than it is worth?

Funny that we produce more gold than we consume yet still pay the world price.

Why can't nowhere just say he wants to legislate that the oil sell according to an arbitray prices fixed by decree. I don't think the oil companies will in the end even bother to sell any oil in Canada....100% would be sent off shore for the higher price....

Why is this moronic thread still going?