Moscow, Russia, 2008

[August1991]

I happen to be in Moscow now and I'm going to attempt something different in this forum: A very brief report on my perceptions of Moscow (subject to correction).

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There are too many cars. The traffic is awful, beyond anything anyone in any Canadian city can imagine. (It is normal to take 2 hours to get from Point A to Point B.)

No one has spoken to me about "global warming". It's a non-issue. Gasoline is about $1/litre and everyone complains about the price.

Private shops sell booze at all hours. You can buy a bottle of wine at 3 am in a local 24/7 shop. (There's a small supermarket across from my apartment. I'm not in central Moscow.)

Russians are not politically correct. In the metro, most (all?) faces are white. The police in their broad hats patrol metro stations.

Major issue in Russia now? Spain defeated Russia in the European football cup preliminaries. MSM? Russian television is almost as bad as Italian TV. Sex? Russian men have piercing, inviting eyes. Tall Russian women wear short skirts, high heels and dye their hair. All of this is evident in the Metro.

Edited June 11, 2008 by August1991

[jdobbin]

Russians are not politically correct. In the metro, most (all?) faces are white. The police in their broad hats patrol metro stations.

In fact, the attacks on non-white and Jews has gone up dramatically this year. Expect to see more refugees.

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2008/...10EAC8CDED.html

According to Sova, a Moscow-based organization that monitors such crimes, extremists have already killed 57 people and wounded another 117 this year in Russia. Only six months into the year, hate-crime figures already look set to exceed those of 2007, when a total of 80 people were murdered.

The real number of victims, however, is probably much higher.

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/25344

Moscow's court found eight men guilty of blowing up the Cherkizovo market in the capital in August 2006, an attack that killed 14 and injured nearly 50 – most of them immigrants. Those found guilty received sentences ranging from life to two years in prison.

Pretty scary.

[bush_cheney2004]

There are too many cars. The traffic is awful, beyond anything anyone in any Canadian city can imagine. (It is normal to take 2 hours to get from Point A to Point B.)

Cool.....here is a traffic photo fave:

http://englishrussia.com/?p=429#more-429

Edited June 11, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Remiel]

God, I hope that road is one of a kind! But I am fairly sure it is not...

That is... scary.

[August1991]

Cool.....here is a traffic photo fave:

http://englishrussia.com/?p=429#more-429

That's the Garden Ring Road with an edge of the MFA on the left.

At present, Moscow's mayor has decided to solve traffic problems with more roads (in Moscow, more rings).

God, I hope that road is one of a kind! But I am fairly sure it is not...

That is... scary.

The MKAD is larger but I wouldn't fall into the "Russia is different" argument, anymore than the "Exceptional America" idea.

In fact, the attacks on non-white and Jews has gone up dramatically this year. Expect to see more refugees.

The error is to believe that using the State to stop such assaults makes a country more civilized.

To do so is simply to replace one form of tyranny for another.

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Within about 20 minutes of walking on any Moscow street, any person from Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver, however sophisticated, would be shocked and turn their head at least twice or three times. Canadian cities are provincial or parochial compared to cities such as Tokyo, London or Rio. Above 6 million or so, a city changes. Canada has no cities of such a size. Moscow has a population larger than Ontario or Quebec. When such a number of people live together, things change.

Edited June 13, 2008 by August1991

[jdobbin]

The error is to believe that using the State to stop such assaults makes a country more civilized.

To do so is simply to replace one form of tyranny for another.

Didn't make any comment on the state at all. It was a comment on the culture that allows it to happen.

[August1991]

Didn't make any comment on the state at all. It was a comment on the culture that allows it to happen.

Russia is a free society compared to Canada. There is no political correctness in Russia. Yet, in Russia there is received or conventional wisdom. This imposes its own form of political correctness. Between the social Russian version of political correctness and the State Canadian version, I far prefer the Russian version.

In Canada, there is the false belief (Warren Kinsella style) that if we use the State to make us respect gays, women and blacks, then we'll have a civilized society.

However seductive the idea, the State is not a social instrument.

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In Russia, the absence of Western political correctness is a breath of fresh air. Mark Steyn would have no problem here.

[jdobbin]

Russia is a free society compared to Canada. There is no political correctness in Russia. Yet, in Russia there is received or conventional wisdom. This imposes its own form of political correctness. Between the social Russian version of political correctness and the State Canadian version, I far prefer the Russian version.

Which can lead to murder based on who you are, what religion you have, what colour you are. That certainly is in bigger numbers than we see in Canada.

In Canada, there is the false belief (Warren Kinsella style) that if we use the State to make us respect gays, women and blacks, then we'll have a civilized society.

In the right wing world there are no crime of hate. It is all just violence. No need to understand where it came from and therefore no need to figure out how to prevent it.

However seductive the idea, the State is not a social instrument.

It always has been, always will be.

In Russia, the absence of Western political correctness is a breath of fresh air. Mark Steyn would have no problem here.

He would probably be dead already. Freedom of the press and all.

Edited June 13, 2008 by jdobbin

[August1991]

He would probably be dead already. Freedom of the press and all.

You're probably right, Dobbin. Steyn would likely be dead in a place such as Russia where the State supposedly guarantees freedoms.

The State does not create our freedoms. This we do ourselves. The error of people such as Warman and Kinsella is to believe, as Soviets, that common civility can be ordered by the State.

If we replace Conventional Wisdom with a State Commission, we have done worse than replace one tyranny for another: A tyranny of the modern State is far worse than any tyranny of gossip. The Soviet Union is ample evidence, and modern Russia is a curious island of freedom.

[myata]

The error is to believe that using the State to stop such assaults makes a country more civilized.

To do so is simply to replace one form of tyranny for another.

Wow, going there made you an anarchist, August. Really, why using state to stop any assaults? Surely it's a tyranny to be avoided at all costs?

[August1991]

Wow, going there made you an anarchist, August. Really, why using state to stop any assaults? Surely it's a tyranny to be avoided at all costs?

Let me clarify this. Of course I favour criminal law - the State can inhibit violence. I even favour added penalties for crimes against identifiable minorities when this morivated the attack. For example, crimes against police in uniform carry heavier penalties than for other victims.

I just think that the State cannot make us polite to one another. If we try to use the State to enforce politeness, we just create another (worse) form of tyranny. Above, I was comparing the tyranny of popular conventional wisdom and the tyranny of State political correctness. The State tyranny is far worse because of the power of the State.

If you live in a small town and people shun you because you are different (let's say you're gay), you have remedies. If the State imposes sanctions against you because of your views (let's say you dislike gays), what remedy do you have?

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Since this thread is about Russia, it seems to me that Russia has gone too far down this "anarchist" direction. In Russia, even criminal law is a private affair because the State is so weak and incompetent. I'll give Putin (and Luzhkov) credit for making the State viable again.

Edited June 14, 2008 by August1991

[myata]

I just think that the State cannot make us polite to one another. If we try to use the State to enforce politeness, we just create another (worse) form of tyranny. Above, I was comparing the tyranny of popular conventional wisdom and the tyranny of State political correctness. The State tyranny is far worse because of the power of the State.

As long as everybody agrees where impoliteness becomes a crime. Does that conventional wisdom prohibit violence? Or does it look the other way when violence is targeted at somebody who's considered an alien?

I agree though that spoken word should not be criminally punished, unless it carries real threat of violence. A mark of a mature community is its ability to deal with issues without recourse to external force. If we won't to hear unpleasant words, we won't be prepared to face the act.

[marcinmoka]

Russia is a free society compared to Canada. There is no political correctness in Russia.

And your point? It's a relatively homogenous society, so to whom must you act "pc" towards? The 15-20% comprised of guest workers who have no political pull? Doubt it.

But Russia as a free society? Spoken as a tourist (and ungrateful westerner). While there is little political correctness, there is also very little debate, since no deviation from the current status quo is even tolerated.

[August1991]

And your point? It's a relatively homogenous society, so to whom must you act "pc" towards? The 15-20% comprised of guest workers who have no political pull? Doubt it.

Marcinmoka, I don't think you quite understood my point.

In Russia, one can make the most outrageously non-politically correct comment (by Canadian standards) without causing any stir. OTOH, other remarks (for example about Russians' character) would meet with immediate opprobrium (even though they are arguably true).

In a sense, I was comparing State-sanctioned rules and socially-sanctioned rules.

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As to your other remarks about guest workers and so on, I really don't know what you mean. Are you alluding to ethnic groups? Visible minorities? It seems to me that white faces are proportionately more common on the Moscow metro than on the Montreal metro but I don't know what that shows.

[marcinmoka]

In Russia, one can make the most outrageously non-politically correct comment (by Canadian standards) without causing any stir

Try making an overt critique of the Orthodox Church, let alone the political administration. Though it is a "secular" and "democratic" nation, I highly doubt the state would let such comments slip by without repercussions.

As an observer, you seem to fail to grasp a key notion. Russia has a state enforced 'pc' culture, one inherited from decades of Soviet, if not even Czarist 'iron fist' rule. What differentiates them is the respective taboos (both social, and state enforced) present in both.

[August1991]

Prices are inflated here. I just ordered a regular coffee in what amounts to a Second Cup and it costs $5.

Try making an overt critique of the Orthodox Church, let alone the political administration. Though it is a "secular" and "democratic" nation, I highly doubt the state would let such comments slip by without repercussions.

As an observer, you seem to fail to grasp a key notion. Russia has a state enforced 'pc' culture, one inherited from decades of Soviet, if not even Czarist 'iron fist' rule. What differentiates them is the respective taboos (both social, and state enforced) present in both.

I think you now get my point, m-in-m. You'll note that I qualified my comment with "by Canadian standards".

There is a form of moral standards in Russia, it is just different and has a different origin. And BTW, criticsms of Putin and Luzhkov are quite common in normal speech - perhaps more common than non-PC comments in public in Canada. Dunno.

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Scene of the week. SUV parks in front of coffee shop on the Boulevard Ring and its corner blocks trams (streetcar line) passing by. This results in about 30 trams all lined up. General up traffic jam ensues as the trams block one lane of traffic. I reckon that the SUV had to been parked for at least 90 minutes. No one bothered to get in touch with the traffic police and have the SUV towed. The tram drivers just sat and talked on their cell phones.

This is Russia writ large. To benefit one person, tremendous cost is imposed on many others. Others stand around and don't really care. Russia? I could say the same about many other (screwed-up) countries.

[xul]

I happen to be in Moscow now and I'm going to attempt something different in this forum:

I'm not a faithful supporter of any kind of "political correctness", but I think there is still a positive function of "political correctness"---just for it can guarantee anyone who tried to say something different in this country will not be accused as a "Russian shill" and beaten by nationalists on the streets.

By the way, it is not always the left wing's "political correctness" stumbles western. The right wing's "political correctness" made more messes. The right wing's anti-communistic and anti-Islamic Jihad of the wars in Vietnam and Iraq are examples.

[White Doors]

you forgot the Korean war.. you know, the one where the western countries handed China it's ass to them?

[August1991]

I'm not a faithful supporter of any kind of "political correctness", but I think there is still a positive function of "political correctness"---just for it can guarantee anyone who tried to say something different in this country will not be accused as a "Russian shill" and beaten by nationalists on the streets.

By the way, it is not always the left wing's "political correctness" stumbles western. The right wing's "political correctness" made more messes. The right wing's anti-communistic and anti-Islamic Jihad of the wars in Vietnam and Iraq are examples.

My comment about political correctness concerned its source.

If the State imposes a politically correct view, then I think we should collectively oppose it. If society imposes a politically correct view, then I think we should individually disagree.

Canada's State Institutions impose a form of political correctness that Russian State Institutions don't. Canada suffers from the social disease "Political Correctness". Russia suffers from various social problems but not political correctness.

you forgot the Korean war.. you know, the one where the western countries handed China it's ass to them?

???

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I did the dacha thing.

Moscow dachas amount to a cheap suburban house. We're not talking cottage by the lake; it's more like a small piece of land, about 50 kms from Moscow, once part of a Soviet institute collective. In 1974, the Soviet State allocated 10 hectares to the Institute of Soviet Human Rights and 100 employees of the Institute each received 100 sq. m. space for a dacha.

I went to one on the weekend or rather, I went to visit someone who had bought a dacha from a professor once at the Institute and chatted over the fence with children of former professors.

The dacha "gated" community may now be called "Institute of Human Rights" but the people living there have little connection to any Soviet institute, or human rights.

But that's not my question. I was more interested in the crap from the toilet. "Where does it go?", I asked.

In Russian dachas, it goes into the "ground" apparently.

If Putin or Medvedev decides to pull a Leonid Brezhnev and invite Stephen Harper or John McCain to a Russian dacha in the country, I suggest that journalists ask what happens with leftovers. What happens to the effluence of Russian State dachas?

[August1991]

The latest idea?

Putin made Russian football viable. The Russians may not have won the European Cup but they fielded a good team, for the first time since the Soviets, because of Putin. Kids ran out on the streets with Russian flags and older women watched football for the first time to see how Russia would do. Putin put us on the map and gave us a good team.

To go along with this belief, everyone ignored the nationality of the Russian team's coach (he's Dutch).

I frankly don't know what to make of Russian nationalism now, it's all over the map. (By comparison, Russian nationalism is three dimensional, Quebec nationalism is two dimensional and (English) Canadian nationalism is one dimensional.)

[xul]

To go along with this belief, everyone ignored the nationality of the Russian team's coach (he's Dutch).

Why they must care about this guy's nationality? If a E.T. with the ability of turning rock to gold fell on Canada, would you want to expel him to Russia for he has not a Canadian passport?

[August1991]

Why they must care about this guy's nationality? If a E.T. with the ability of turning rock to gold fell on Canada, would you want to expel him to Russia for he has not a Canadian passport?

You might want to pose that question to "anti-immigrant" Argus. In this regard, he's an amateur Russian (and just as confused).

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Sidenotes

Russian men (and even women) spit in public as much as I remember, but not as much as Chinese. You still see Russian guards eating sunflower seeds. (I think Ayn Rand described this in "We the Living" which is my favourite novel of hers.)

Real estate is now the latest get-rich-scheme. In Moscow, average residential prices are $2000/sq. ft. (in Montreal, it's about $200/sq. ft.). You can do the calculation for wherever you live. Depending on location, apartment prices in Moscow have risen about 4X in the past eight years.

Disposable income. Federal income tax is a flat 13%. VAT is around 15%. Most people have no mortgage/rent (apartments were privatized). Property tax/utilities/condo fees (equivalent) combined are less than $100 monthly (I'm not joking.) People basically don't have credit card debt. IOW, the average single "Sex in the City" 30 year old woman has about $1500 of disposable/free income every month.

Edited July 5, 2008 by August1991

[Argus]

Russia is a free society compared to Canada. There is no political correctness in Russia. Yet, in Russia there is received or conventional wisdom. This imposes its own form of political correctness. Between the social Russian version of political correctness and the State Canadian version, I far prefer the Russian version.

Fatuous nonsense. There are all manner of prohibited positions one can take in Russia which will get you into far worse problems than a Canadian human rights commission hearing. Free? Free to be rude, I suppose, but only if you're being rude to the powerless. How is that a great freedom compared to our freedom to speak ill of politicians - not something you can do in today's Russia.

In Russia, the absence of Western political correctness is a breath of fresh air. Mark Steyn would have no problem here.

Yes, journalists are so free to express themselves in Russia. Why, hardly any of them are murdered for opposing important interests. And there is such a broad spectrum of free media, too. Why it's a wonderland there!

Did you leave your brain checked at the airport?

[Argus]

Real estate is now the latest get-rich-scheme. In Moscow, average residential prices are $2000/sq. ft. (in Montreal, it's about $200/sq. ft.). You can do the calculation for wherever you live. Depending on location, apartment prices in Moscow have risen about 4X in the past eight years.

Uh, yes, and the massive corruption and crime there has people seeing their homes and apartments stolen right out from under them with the aid of crooked judges and bureaucrats.

Disposable income. Federal income tax is a flat 13%. VAT is around 15%. Most people have no mortgage/rent (apartments were privatized). Property tax/utilities/condo fees (equivalent) combined are less than $100 monthly (I'm not joking.) People basically don't have credit card debt. IOW, the average single "Sex in the City" 30 year old woman has about $1500 of disposable/free income every month.

Does that mean seniors aren't still living on $30 a month pensions and aren't out in the streets begging?

[myata]

Fatuous nonsense. There are all manner of prohibited positions one can take in Russia which will get you into far worse problems than a Canadian human rights commission hearing. Free? Free to be rude, I suppose, but only if you're being rude to the powerless.

What may have been meant (by e.g reference to Steyn) is that back there, one enjoys full unrestricted freedom to ascribe most problems in the society to some malicious foreign-born elements.