Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) now thats a whole new thread... its completely obvious that there is not "competition" at the pumps. what short memories people have! ten years ago we had a rather large independent gas station franchise here in victoria, bc called ‘payless gas’. about 10 -15 stations. payless gas had price wars with the big guys all the time! it was fabulous.then one day payless sold. eventually landed in the hands of shell oil. now those day are long gone! prices change at all the pumps at the same time just like everywhere else in canada! how strange that happens without any collusion at all?! When market is said it is ment as global market, since we are ever increasingly more and more tied to the global market. Think outside your local market, think outside the national market, we are in a global economy, if they will pay more in europe our domestic price goes up. Gas prices at the pump are set buy the wholesale price and are influenced by the futures bought and sold in the stock exchanges. When everyone pays the same wholesale price which is set by the makets not the companies, that the price at all the gas stations would be very close to the same? If you don't like the price of fuel maybe you should vote in a government that doesn't at cabon taxes to your fuel. Maybe one should be elected that would reduce the gas taxes, reduce government regulation, one that would encourage the free market economy instead of the statist one that is currently promoted. BTW 10 years ago we were in a different market cycle, and oil was $10-15 a barrell. The economy has changed. Edited April 22, 2008 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 i'm sorry, we can't use taxes to pay for roads and health care? If oil profits are considered theft from the consumer, then the moral argument implies that the ill gotten profits should be returned to the consumer that it was taken from... it doesn't give the government the right to take the profits and spend it on whatever it wants. I am not saying that there aren't other moral arguments for the government to use oil profits to spend on health care or roads... you just can't use the theft argument. again, i was talking about using export revenues here, not domestic. domestic prices at the pumps would be highly regulated with garanteed supply (part of the cost of doing business). thus no need to 'pay back the consumer'. Again, why is cheap gas a social priority? You want to charge Canadians lower prices... but that's just wasted revenue that could be used for other important goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 now thats a whole new thread... its completely obvious that there is not "competition" at the pumps. what short memories people have! ten years ago we had a rather large independent gas station franchise here in victoria, bc called ‘payless gas’. about 10 -15 stations. payless gas had price wars with the big guys all the time! it was fabulous.then one day payless sold. eventually landed in the hands of shell oil. now those day are long gone! prices change at all the pumps at the same time just like everywhere else in canada! how strange that happens without any collusion at all?! this is crazy. What this person wants is a cheap oil policy, which will ruin the economy of western and eastern Canada. That makes as much sense as having a cheap food policy, which we don't have anymore, thank God. High commodity prices are very good for Canada and it is rapidly improving our economy and making everyone richer. Time to start buying shares in oil companies if you don't like the massive profits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) then one day payless sold. eventually landed in the hands of shell oil. now those day are long gone! prices change at all the pumps at the same time just like everywhere else in canada! how strange that happens without any collusion at all?!If I was part of an industry conspirasy to inflate prices I would make sure that no one would notice. This would mean infrequent small price changes. The fact that gas prices change so quickly is a sign of intense competition at the retail level. OTOH, there is not as much competition at the refinery level, however, that has been largely a result of government policies that make it very difficult to build new refineries. Edited April 22, 2008 by Riverwind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Think outside your local market, think outside the national market, we are in a global economy, if they will pay more in europe our domestic price goes up. Gas prices at the pump are set buy the wholesale price and are influenced by the futures bought and sold in the stock exchanges. When everyone pays the same wholesale price which is set by the makets not the companies, that the price at all the gas stations would be very close to the same? way too naïve! the “global economy” is one where corporations are the new power centers and free to operate without regard for national interests… its already in its death throws given the next u.s. president has to denounce it to get elected. another thread… markets are manipulated and monopolized everyday! sometimes with complete state approval! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Again, why is cheap gas a social priority? You want to charge Canadians lower prices... but that's just wasted revenue that could be used for other important goals. who said anything about a 'social priority'? its an economic priority. it gives people more money to spend elsewhere doesn’t it? if oil companies are the richest corporations in the world then wouldn't you say that that industry is developed and requires not further assistance? high energy prices raise the price of everything in our economic environment. it drives inflation etc etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 way too naïve! the “global economy” is one where corporations are the new power centers and free to operate without regard for national interests… its already in its death throws given the next u.s. president has to denounce it to get elected. another thread… markets are manipulated and monopolized everyday! sometimes with complete state approval! Way too niave? You seem to lack the basic understanding of how the global economy works, you are niave to think that a cheap energy policy won't bankrupt our country. The global markket would still exist beyond NAfta which is what you are thinking of, global maket is not northa america, it is the whole globe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 this is crazy. What this person wants is a cheap oil policy, which will ruin the economy of western and eastern Canada. That makes as much sense as having a cheap food policy, which we don't have anymore, thank God. High commodity prices are very good for Canada and it is rapidly improving our economy and making everyone richer.Time to start buying shares in oil companies if you don't like the massive profits. what country do you live in? inflation adjusted household income, a measure of buying power, peaked in the late 1960's and has dropped ever since. gdp per capita continues to grow but not income per capita. you know what that means! the rich are getting richer! the poor and middle class are getting trashed! you think you've done well because you have no idea how you'd be living in 1965! of course, the irvings are not concerned with such things. they need to import oil to an oil rich country just so they can mark it up and rip you off at the pumps cause they compete with nobody! everyones got a share of the pie so no reason to rock the boat. smooth sailing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 who said anything about a 'social priority'? its an economic priority. it gives people more money to spend elsewhere doesn’t it? if oil companies are the richest corporations in the world then wouldn't you say that that industry is developed and requires not further assistance?high energy prices raise the price of everything in our economic environment. it drives inflation etc etc.. It is a contributing factor to inflation, but really drives up the cost of gas (or the inflation of gas prices if you will) is simple more people want it hence higher demand, refineries are operating close to capacity, so that equals static supply. So either you move into government rationing and everbody gets a little bit, or those willing to pay more get more. Economics 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 what country do you live in?inflation adjusted household income, a measure of buying power, peaked in the late 1960's and has dropped ever since. gdp per capita continues to grow but not income per capita. you know what that means! the rich are getting richer! the poor and middle class are getting trashed! you think you've done well because you have no idea how you'd be living in 1965! of course, the irvings are not concerned with such things. they need to import oil to an oil rich country just so they can mark it up and rip you off at the pumps cause they compete with nobody! everyones got a share of the pie so no reason to rock the boat. smooth sailing! Most of the Oil that comes from Canada is bunker C, not the best for refining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 first off, stop listening to "analysts" or "consultants" on tv... they invariably work for the industry they are "analyzing". its infuriating how much “news” we get from the “liberal” media that’s just corporate propaganda!so you feel that the fruits of our countries wealth are only available on a “pay to play” basis? the usual hegemony motto isn’t it? which leaves the bottom two thirds to pay for stuff like roads, hospitals etc etc... To that I respond "Mao Mao Mao Tse Tung"/"Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh", stuff I chant at rallies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 It is a contributing factor to inflation, but really drives up the cost of gas (or the inflation of gas prices if you will) is simple more people want it hence higher demand, refineries are operating close to capacity, so that equals static supply. So either you move into government rationing and everbody gets a little bit, or those willing to pay more get more. Economics 101. again, thats assuming a ‘free’ and competitive market... the number of times i see 'industry experts' on tv saying that we don't have enough refinement capacity! like i said, big oil has been buying downstream for decades now! they own everything from drill bit to pump.. they own the refineries! entrepreneurial 101 dictates that one attempts to monopolize a market then determine what the highest possible price/volume ratio a consumer will pay for it to maximize profits! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 To that I respond "Mao Mao Mao Tse Tung"/"Ho Ho Ho Chi Minh", stuff I chant at rallies. oh stuff that old fart communist stuff! lol! haven't you heard? communists are loved in the global economy! russia? great people! china? sure, a few human rights abuses but nothing serious. never had a problem with military dictatorships… they’ve always been cool! lets do business! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 again, thats assuming a ‘free’ and competitive market... the number of times i see 'industry experts' on tv saying that we don't have enough refinement capacity! like i said, big oil has been buying downstream for decades now! they own everything from drill bit to pump.. they own the refineries!entrepreneurial 101 dictates that one attempts to monopolize a market then determine what the highest possible price/volume ratio a consumer will pay for it to maximize profits! Two flaws in your arguement 1 there is no monoply, and two they do not own everything from the drill bit to refineries, I see many office buildings in downtown Calgary that are not shell, mobile, petro canada, and husky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 first off, stop listening to "analysts" or "consultants" on tv... they invariably work for the industry they are "analyzing". its infuriating how much “news” we get from the “liberal” media that’s just corporate propaganda! Why listen to people who know what they are talking about when we can listen to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Two flaws in your arguement 1 there is no monoply, and two they do not own everything from the drill bit to refineries, I see many office buildings in downtown Calgary that are not shell, mobile, petro canada, and husky i'm sorry i used the word monopoly. the proper word is 'cartel'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planetx Posted April 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 Why listen to people who know what they are talking about when we can listen to you. oh, they know what they are talking about all right... they are convincing the public to be a submissive subjects. heck, i saw one on these "industry experts" on the news the other day smiling away 'higher fuel costs? get used to it! there's nothing that can be done and there's more to come!' so what does the 'free market' in oil mean for canada, the second most oil rich nation on the planet? a lower standard of living for all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwind Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 so what does the 'free market' in oil mean for canada, the second most oil rich nation on the planet? a lower standard of living for all?A booming economy as the trade surplus booms and investment pours in from around the world. You also don't realize that alberta does not have enough high quality crude to supply our economy (the east is a net importer of oil). The tar sands produce stuff that can only be used for diesel. So nationalizing the tar sands will do nothing to lower the cost of gasoline at the pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Doors Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 HANG ON JUST A DARN MINUTE! all this crap about 'free markets' but suddenly its all out the window when we are talking about big oil companies?!! realize, ITS NOT ALBERTANS WHO ARE REAPING THE PROFITS ITS BIG OFFSHORE INTERNATIONAL CONGLOMERATES!albertans are already short changing themselves big time! Have you even to Alberta? It;'s the richest province in Confederation. Your arguments are silly and not well thought out. Why would we want to make gas cheaper? How would that promote conservation of a non-renewable resource? I thought people on the left we eco-warriors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 oh, they know what they are talking about all right... they are convincing the public to be a submissive subjects. heck, i saw one on these "industry experts" on the news the other day smiling away 'higher fuel costs? get used to it! there's nothing that can be done and there's more to come!'so what does the 'free market' in oil mean for canada, the second most oil rich nation on the planet? a lower standard of living for all? There is only one reason oil is expensive, people want it. You want it for less than it is worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 There is only one reason oil is expensive, people want it. You want it for less than it is worth. Don't bother he/she doesn't understand how fair market value is derived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 As I understand it market value is derived when the manager of our Co-op gas bar and the manager of the Petro-Can station next door either call each other or look at the other guys sign and match it to the same tenth of a penny, usually within the same tenth of a second. The only exception to this was when it was to windy for the Petro-can guy to safely get up his ladder. Alas, he now has a sign that he can change from the safety of his counter. I think the Co-op manager misses the days when he could play with the price and see how many times he could make the Petro-can guy go up and down his ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreodontist Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) Have you even to Alberta? It;'s the richest province in Confederation.Your arguments are silly and not well thought out. Why would we want to make gas cheaper? How would that promote conservation of a non-renewable resource? I thought people on the left we eco-warriors? True I always laugh at the eco warriors hypocrisy. The same folks who want to limit carbon emissions are the ones who rant about the 'evil multinationals' when energy prices go up...the only variable that will actually reduce energy use and emission is HIGHER prices. Just for the record: we have our own company and employ 18 people. We don't take orders or shout 'Yes sir' for any large corporation. There are thousands of individuals and small companie in the energy industry. The larger energy companies are all publically traded and if you have mutual funds or a pension plan, they mke up a significant part of your portfolio...oil goes up in price and usually the TSX has a good day. any consumer in Ontario with a hundred thousand in invested savings probablty paid an extra 20 bucks last month for gas but their portfolio increased by $3,000 or so due to increased energy values and thus confidence in the Canadian economy. Edited April 22, 2008 by oreodontist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 (edited) As I understand it market value is derived when the manager of our Co-op gas bar and the manager of the Petro-Can station next door either call each other or look at the other guys sign and match it to the same tenth of a penny, usually within the same tenth of a second.The only exception to this was when it was to windy for the Petro-can guy to safely get up his ladder. Alas, he now has a sign that he can change from the safety of his counter. I think the Co-op manager misses the days when he could play with the price and see how many times he could make the Petro-can guy go up and down his ladder. Wow you really think that? The Price at your pump is set by the wholesale price and transportation costs. The wholesale cost is drived by the futures prices being payed in the stock markets. Edited April 22, 2008 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted April 22, 2008 Report Share Posted April 22, 2008 The only thing that will promote the conservation of a non-renewable resource is competition, judging by the Co-op and Petro-Can where I live there is none. Zero, nada, zilch. I always get a laugh out of economic hypocrisy. The same folks who preach about competition and innovation whenever anyone questions the obscene profit margins of the sacred multi-nationals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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