RCMP raids Tory party headquarters

eyeball · April 19, 2008

Oh lord..
Wow.. i'm almost about to say this is a CRISIS situation in Canada.

This is bigger than adscam, bigger then petty political shanagans.. this is definately, very, very serious and very very telling of the country we're in right now..

These are very negative, very serious developments for our country.

I can't do anything but watch.

Watch what, they have video tape of the Tory's secretly ordering the Elections Canada raid so they could slip in their lawsuit files so the Elections Canada Case against them would be thrown out? It would be enough to give Machiavelli himself a headache.

I think now would be a really good time for an election.

Qwerty · April 19, 2008

Watch what, they have video tape of the Tory's secretly ordering the Elections Canada raid so they could slip in their lawsuit files so the Elections Canada Case against them would be thrown out? It would be enough to give Machiavelli himself a headache.
I think now would be a really good time for an election.

The CPC has been daring Dion to vote against him for months now...

jdobbin · April 19, 2008

The CPC has been daring Dion to vote against him for months now...

The CPC has been threatening to go to the Governor-General and declare that no-confidence has been reached...

eyeball · April 19, 2008

I'd still like to see an election, for the sake of political anarchy if nothing else, I certainly wouldn't expect anything meangingful to change.

capricorn · April 19, 2008

Oh lord..
Wow.. i'm almost about to say this is a CRISIS situation in Canada.

This is bigger than adscam, bigger then petty political shanagans.. this is definately, very, very serious and very very telling of the country we're in right now..

These are very negative, very serious developments for our country.

I can't do anything but watch.

mddoubleO, Are you really panicked over this or are you just trying to inject humour?

As I read over your posts on this thread, I'm finding them pretty funny. :lol:

mikedavid00 · April 19, 2008

mddoubleO, Are you really panicked over this or are you just trying to inject humour?
As I read over your posts on this thread, I'm finding them pretty funny.

No i'm very serious..

I feel alone in the fact that I feel this is extremely serious and I feel something should be done here. Man this is a real, real bad sign that we're doing these things in our country.

Maybe it's just time to have an election and then let all the heads role and then reform our political system.

Shakeyhands · April 19, 2008

mddoubleO, Are you really panicked over this or are you just trying to inject humour?
As I read over your posts on this thread, I'm finding them pretty funny.

mdoubleO... is that his Her Majesty's Secret Service name????

sharkman · April 19, 2008

Oh lord..
Wow.. i'm almost about to say this is a CRISIS situation in Canada.

This is bigger than adscam, bigger then petty political shanagans.. this is definately, very, very serious and very very telling of the country we're in right now..

These are very negative, very serious developments for our country.

I can't do anything but watch.

I know, I told the whole sorted mess to my wife and the first thing she said was Elections Canada is abusing its powers. Two parties are involved in a court case and one party has the power to seize whatever documents it wants from the other party and it does so. This doesn't happen in some tin pot dictatorship, but in Canada.

In an appeal, which this is, no new evidence is admitted, the judge must make his decision based on the previous evidence admitted. So whatever Elections Canada seized, it is inadmissible. Now unless this situation is somehow unique, we have a major travesty of justice occurring in our justice system, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the judge hasn't done anything about this.

Furthermore, whatever governing body that Elections Canada answers to hasn't slapped their hands for this obvious conflict of interest. The mind boggles.

Who's Doing What? · April 19, 2008

mdoubleO... is that his Her Majesty's Secret Service name????

He has a license to post at will.

August1991 · April 19, 2008

This thread appears to have been hijacked to Cuba, Angola, Burma and North Korea. (As tourists, it's sad that there are so few whacko countries in the world. In the bigger scheme of things thank God there are so few whacko countries in the world now. As they say to leftist Canadian tourists in Havana, come to Cuba now before Fidel dies and the place becomes normal.)

Wrong. The RCMP named Goodale as being the subject of a criminal investigation.

That investigation was entirely different from this one - the Liberals care about Bay Street, real money.

How is the above tale supposed to sit well with anyone. This is a first for our country and there has been a progression towards this for many years in Canada.
Our country is a 'farce'. Now it's a getting a bit more serious and people are seeing red flags from very far away.

MD, WTF? How can something be a "first" when there has been a "progression". Are you in marketing?

The discovery of calculus was a first. Faster CPUs are a progression.

---

Our country a farce? I think there's a good English expression that you should consider: Don't sell Canada short.

Shakeyhands · April 19, 2008

I know, I told the whole sorted mess to my wife and the first thing she said was Elections Canada is abusing its powers. Two parties are involved in a court case and one party has the power to seize whatever documents it wants from the other party and it does so. This doesn't happen in some tin pot dictatorship, but in Canada.
In an appeal, which this is, no new evidence is admitted, the judge must make his decision based on the previous evidence admitted. So whatever Elections Canada seized, it is inadmissible. Now unless this situation is somehow unique, we have a major travesty of justice occurring in our justice system, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the judge hasn't done anything about this.

Furthermore, whatever governing body that Elections Canada answers to hasn't slapped their hands for this obvious conflict of interest. The mind boggles.

Its the Judge who decides if the evidence supports a warrant, not EC. If he believes it did, which obviously he did, the search warrant is issued.

What I don't necessarily agree with is that it was EC itself who did the searching, at this point another investigatior should probably have been brought in. Seems like a conflict to me as well. Inadmissable evidence? Maybe thats a stretch.

I wonder what it is that EC and the Judge believed that the CPC was withholding?

Argus · April 19, 2008

I have no idea what the strategy is. I'm not a member of the party at the moment nor privy to what they have planned

I don't believe you.

The last few polls have suggested the Liberals would have more MPs and so would the Tories. The NDP was forecast to lose seats.
That was in last week's Unimarketing poll.

Wednesday's Decima poll had the Liberals up 3 points even before the raid. Women are abandoning the Tories in droves according to that poll.

General polls are of no importance and you know that as a former candidate. What is important are the riding by riding polls and polls of selected groups. By way of example - for those unlike Jdbobbin who don't know what I mean - polls are offset by the fact a lot of the people who say they would vote for this or that party have no real intention of voting. Nobody cares, for example, what young people say - except Gallup, of course. Young people don't vote anyway.

And why do you suppose men of all ages, ethnicities, educational levels and income brackets are fleeing the Liberal party? No one who considers himself a man wants to be associated with Stephan Dion. Every time his name comes up men curl their lips in contempt.

Argus · April 19, 2008

Harper HAS been a disaster for Canada. It will take many years of Liberal majorities to undue the damage to our country that Harper and his Conservatives have done.

Such as?

I know, I know, you've had to go months and months without legal pot! Omygod! The humanity!

Argus · April 19, 2008

It was the RCMP brass trying to influence the election. Even the Commissioner's own staff left Goodale's name off the letter to the NDP MP because they had no evidence to support an investigation against the Finance minster. The Commissioner put the name in himself and later refused to answer questions as to why he did it. He also refused to answer questions about why to announce an investigation at all when the RCMP had often refused to confirm or deny they were investigating something.

This would be the commissioner who was Chretien's bitch for his entire term? The commissioner who willingly sent mounties to violate the law and ignore the constitution on behalf of the PMO during the APEC summit in BC? This is the commissioner who willingly sent mounties to pressure Francois Beaudoin of the Business Development Bank into being silent in his criticism of Chretien, who raided his home repeatedly and tried to get the Quebec crown to arrest him even though he had violated no laws?

If your little pet turned on you that's your fault. Maybe he was rooting around in a closet and discovered where he'd left his spine. Or maybe his handlers fed him the wrong pet meal or something.

Argus · April 19, 2008

It was a clerical error I'm sure, very minor. The CPC has thousands upon thousands of donations to account for. They are still human beings at the end of the day, mistakes happen.

It would be far less likely to happen to the Liberal Party. They've never had much in the way of private donations. For years the Liberals' main income was in the form of large bribes - er, donations from large corporate interests.

Now that the laws have changed to make large donations illegal they're finding it veeeery hard to raise any money.

It seems ordinary Canadians have never had any interest in donating to the Liberal Party.

jdobbin · April 19, 2008

I don't believe you.

I'm sure you don't. I don't believe anything you say either. However, unlike you, you can check because it isn't like my name isn't difficult to look up. Provincially, my membership lapsed a a number of years ago. Federally, I've had a membership one year out of the last five or six but don't don't have one right now.

General polls are of no importance and you know that as a former candidate. What is important are the riding by riding polls and polls of selected groups. By way of example - for those unlike Jdbobbin who don't know what I mean - polls are offset by the fact a lot of the people who say they would vote for this or that party have no real intention of voting. Nobody cares, for example, what young people say - except Gallup, of course. Young people don't vote anyway.

What I know of general polls as a candidate is that it started to show an accelerated trend than led the provincial Liberals from one seat to twenty in 1988. Even the riding by riding polls missed it and did not accurately predict the breakthrough in seats that year.

Many people are dismissive of polling. Harper said he wouldn't be ruled by polling and tried to embarrass the Liberals by calling an investigation into polling. It blew up in his face though when it was revealed that his government was calling two polls a day.

I happen to think polls show a fairly accurate indication of trends in voting intentions and behaviours but that in highly fluid situations, it can only offer a snapshot on the week that was.

If Harper thought the riding by riding polls showed him getting a majority, he would have gone to the Governor General like he had threatened to do several days ago. He didn't do it because it is still too close to call and that his very decision to go to the polls could swing seats.

And why do you suppose men of all ages, ethnicities, educational levels and income brackets are fleeing the Liberal party? No one who considers himself a man wants to be associated with Stephan Dion. Every time his name comes up men curl their lips in contempt.

I haven't seen a recent citation of men's voting intentions. Do you have a link? Last poll I saw from Decima indicated that the voting intention of men was static but that the voting intention of women had changed dramatically.

jdobbin · April 19, 2008

That investigation was entirely different from this one - the Liberals care about Bay Street, real money.

Any why did the RCMP brass want to make sure that Goodale's name was listed in the investigation? What did they care about at the time?

jdobbin · April 19, 2008

If your little pet turned on you that's your fault. Maybe he was rooting around in a closet and discovered where he'd left his spine. Or maybe his handlers fed him the wrong pet meal or something.

All questions worth asking. Harper should call a public inquiry with the power to get the former RCMP Commissioner and other brass to testify.

The Force has had mounting problems over the last decades and has increasingly acted in a self-serving way.

Argus · April 19, 2008

All questions worth asking. Harper should call a public inquiry with the power to get the former RCMP Commissioner and other brass to testify.
The Force has had mounting problems over the last decades and has increasingly acted in a self-serving way.

I would love to see an inquiry into Leatherman's actions while Commissioner of the RCMP, particularly his actions surrounding APEC and the BDB scandal. I'd love to see who sent the mounties to Francois Beaudoin's home and what instructions they were given and at whose behest.

I'd also like Jean Chretien to pay us back the money he stole from the bank, and for the high ranking Liberals on the board of the BDC to pay us back the millions they spent on their legal fight with Francois Beaudoin.

Nothing Mulroney ever was even accused of doing could hold a candle to BDC in terms of both theft of public funds and abuse of the RCMP for political ends. Jean Chretien and his prime fixer Jean Carle, and all the Liberals on that board should be serving long prison sentences right now. And Zaccardelli and all other mounties involved should have been fired and imprisoned for breach of public trust.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Argus

jdobbin · April 19, 2008

I would love to see an inquiry into Leatherman's actions while Commissioner of the RCMP, particularly his actions surrounding APEC and the BDB scandal. I'd love to see who sent the mounties to Francois Beaudoin's home and what instructions they were given and at whose behest.
I'd also like Jean Chretien to pay us back the money he stole from the bank, and for the high ranking Liberals on the board of the BDC to pay us back the millions they spent on their legal fight with Francois Beaudoin.

Nothing Mulroney ever was even accused of doing could hold a candle to BDC in terms of both theft of public funds and abuse of the RCMP for political ends. Jean Chretien and his prime fixer Jean Carle, and all the Liberals on that board should be serving long prison sentences right now. And Zaccardelli and all other mounties involved should have been fired and imprisoned for breach of public trust.

By all means call an inquiry. I'd love to see the results. At the same time I would like to know why the RCMP didn't re-open their investigation into Mulroney when it was obvious that he perjured himself in regards to his relationship with Shreiber and why they haven't tracked the money that came from outside the country to put Mulroney in power and was paid out in commissions to top Tories.

sharkman · April 19, 2008

Provincially, my membership lapsed a a number of years ago. Federally, I've had a membership one year out of the last five or six but don't don't have one right now.
What I know of general polls as a candidate is that it started to show an accelerated trend than led the provincial Liberals from one seat to twenty in 1988. Even the riding by riding polls missed it and did not accurately predict the breakthrough in seats that year.

I happen to think polls show a fairly accurate indication of trends in voting intentions and behaviours but that in highly fluid situations, it can only offer a snapshot on the week that was.

Whether you are an active member or not, you are the most hard core Liberal supporter I have ever seen, and I've been on plenty of forums. You might as well sign up again, my friend, you're giving it for free.

Whenever I see you analyze polls, I have to laugh. Every single time a poll comes out with increased support for the Tories, you call it into question using all manner of excuses why it's skewed in some way. And every single time a poll comes out with more support for the Liberals, you breathlessly report every single word like the Almighty just handed it to you.

This makes your analysis of polls untrustworthy no matter how well versed you are in them.

BubberMiley · April 19, 2008

This makes your analysis of polls untrustworthy no matter how well versed you are in them.

Are you referring to how when the polls show the two parties neck and neck and, even though the Tories have their votes concentrated largely in Alberta, Dobbin's "analysis" is that the Tories would probably pull off another minority? He's untrustworthy because he's limiting expectations for the Liberals so they could appear to have momentum when we find out they're on track to win more seats in an election?

sharkman · April 19, 2008

Are you referring to how when the polls show the two parties neck and neck and, even though the Tories have their votes concentrated largely in Alberta, Dobbin's "analysis" is that the Tories would probably pull off another minority? He's untrustworthy because he's limiting expectations for the Liberals so they could appear to have momentum when we find out they're on track to win more seats in an election?

You seem to be speaking for him, so do you deny that he's a big time Liberal hack? You didn't so I believe you agree with that sentiment. Since you also don't disagree with my take on his analysis of polls showing Tories leading, I conclude you only have this one small exception you've brought up, although it doesn't conflict with what I've said.

I've never seen him make this type of analysis, are you sure he did it? At any rate, the most recent example that I was speaking of was the March 16 Strategic Council poll. Dobbin immediately said an 11 point lead by the Tories would still give them minority status, and then he called that poll into question.

Shakeyhands · April 19, 2008

Are you referring to how when the polls show the two parties neck and neck and, even though the Tories have their votes concentrated largely in Alberta, Dobbin's "analysis" is that the Tories would probably pull off another minority? He's untrustworthy because he's limiting expectations for the Liberals so they could appear to have momentum when we find out they're on track to win more seats in an election?

Oh come on. Argus is clearly being a bit of a drama queen. We all have our moments.

Edited April 19, 2008 by Shakeyhands

Shakeyhands · April 19, 2008

You seem to be speaking for him, so do you deny that he's a big time Liberal hack? You didn't so I believe you agree with that sentiment. Since you also don't disagree with my take on his analysis of polls showing Tories leading, I conclude you only have this one small exception you've brought up, although it doesn't conflict with what I've said.
I've never seen him make this type of analysis, are you sure he did it? At any rate, the most recent example that I was speaking of was the March 16 Strategic Council poll. Dobbin immediately said an 11 point lead by the Tories would still give them minority status, and then he called that poll into question.

SC consistently have the CPC ahead in thew 10 point range it seems. I wouldn't trust their polling either, how is it that they seem to always show significant CPC leads when all the other pollsters show see sawing leads within the margin of error?

And lets not start calling each other Party hacks. thats a two way street as well.