Muslim Immigration and Integration

[White Doors]

deity 1.A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

2.any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or some aspect of life or who is the personification of a force

http://islam.about.com/od/jesus/Prophet_Jesus_Isa.htm

Prophet Jesus ('Isa)

Muslims believe that Jesus, son of Mary, was a noble and honorable prophet of God. Learn more about the life and teachings of Jesus, according to the Muslim faith.

Q. What does the Qur'an say about Jesus?

From Huda,

Your Guide to Islam.

A. In the Qur'an, stories about the life and teachings of Jesus Christ (called 'Isa in Arabic) are abundant. The Qur'an recalls his miraculous birth, his teachings, the miracles he performed by God's permission, and his life as a respected prophet of God. The Qur'an also repeatedly reminds that Jesus was a human prophet sent by God, not part of God Himself. For more detailed information about what Muslims believe about Jesus, please visit the FAQ index page. Below are some direct quotations from the Qur'an regarding his life and teachings.

"Behold! the angels said, 'Oh Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a Word from Him. His name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter, and in (the company of) those nearest to God. He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity.He shall be (in the company) of the righteous... And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel'" (3:45-48).

"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!' Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is" (19:30-35).

lol?

Good boy! exactly, muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. NOT a Deity.

Next time you can make your retraction much more brief.

thanks

[White Doors]

actually it is not inconsistent, reread the definitions.

.A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

worship:a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

b.The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.

Jesus is revered/worshipped/thought holy, divine, or is sacred, in Islam. Therefore Jesus is a deity in Islam.

http://soundvision.com/Info/jesus/

Jesus and Muslims

Muslims are required by God to believe in all of the Prophets. These include Jesus and John the Baptist peace be upon them. The Quran, the Islamic holy book, also instructs Muslims to believe in the books revealed to every Prophet as well. The book given to Jesus is called Injeel in the Quran.

Muslims love Jesus. We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.

Christians should just get over their own intolerance before they speak about others, and use the fact that Islam reveres Jesus, as a bridge to understanding as stated.

IMO, you say what you say, since you can not accept the simple facts of the matter.

Wow, you would argue that the sky was pink rather than admit you were wrong wouldn;t you?

In Islam, Jesus is neither a deity and is not worshipped. period.

You really need to be able to admit when you are wrong. It's how you learn.

[kuzadd]

Good boy! exactly, muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. NOT a Deity.

Next time you can make your retraction much more brief.

thanks

no retraction a deity is a prophet or a god, or a shiny gold statue, whatever you wanna revere.

zooming over your head, because it does not fit your obviously narrow definition of deity, or your ability to read and comprehend????? I don't know which or perhaps both??

A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

l

[kuzadd]

Wow, you would argue that the sky was pink rather than admit you were wrong wouldn;t you?

In Islam, Jesus is neither a deity and is not worshipped. period.

You really need to be able to admit when you are wrong. It's how you learn.

roflmao!!!

like I said :IMO, you say what you say, since you can not accept the simple facts of the matter.

BTW:

You really need to be able to admit when you are wrong. It's how you learn

and boy oh boy, you are flat our wrong!!!!

Edited March 11, 2008 by kuzadd

[Leafless]

wrt to Quebec

as 'founding people'?????

as 'founding people'???

now Aborignals are demanding the same rights??

I suppose these rights only belong to the British??????

You do not need the Charter to verify that so called minorities were denied rights given to all other Canadians but them.

If minorities cannot advance their quality of life within their obvious limited cultural abilities, then they must assimilate and if they do not assimilate and they suffer because of it, then that is their problem and no one elses.

All Canadians ALWAYS had the same rights as any other Canadian.

But then again to say we are all equal in all ways is a figment of the imagination.

For government to forcefully intervene with special rights within the Charter for minorities, is an discriminatory, shameful attack on law abiding citizens of Canada and that deserves no tolerance or respect for that type of imposed legislation.

[White Doors]

no retraction a deity is a prophet or a god, or a shiny gold statue, whatever you wanna revere.

zooming over your head, because it does not fit your obviously narrow definition of deity, or your ability to read and comprehend????? I don't know which or perhaps both??

A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

l

So what you are saying is that you are unable to distinguish between a deity and a prophet.

Wow. I now know for sure that you do not know anyone that is a muslim!

They would tell you unequivocally that jesus is NOT in any way shape or form a deity in their religion.

Then make sure to tell them they are wrong when they tell you that!

lol

Allah is the ONLY deity of Islam. Allah means "God" In Arabic.

Muslims,Christian,and the jewish all worship Allah. They all belive in a monothestic religion. The difference is that in Islam, they belive that Allah begot none. Where as the Christians belive that Jesus is the son of god.

In Islam they belive the Jesus(pbuh) was a very knowledgeable prophet.

link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_deity_of_Islam

Edited March 11, 2008 by White Doors

[guyser]

Relating to Quebec it was an interpretation of cultural rights that as allowed Quebec to be classified as a 'founding people', resulting in official multiculturalism, official languages, official bilingualism and Charter Rights and Freedoms. Now Aboriginals are demanding the same rights as Quebec.

Ok I can see the Que angle, but it doesnt answer what "policies" were implemented by the Govt to ensure people could keep their culture.

[JB Globe]

In response to my quote: "This isn't 1959, you can't turn back the clock." You said:

Actually, yes you can, and that's what's happening by allowing large numbers of Muslims into Canada.

Wheras my quote referred to white nationalists' futile attempts to turn Canada back into a nation dominated by Anglo-Canadian culture, you seem to be saying that Muslims are the ones who will turn the clock back. I can only assume you're insinuating that Islam = backward in your mind, therefor more Muslim immigrants mean more backwardness - which I find to be stereotypical and no reflective of the reality of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't disagree that some Muslims readily integrate and assimilate into Canadian society,

Well I disagree with that. It's actually that MOST Muslims readily integrate and assimilate into Canadian society.

but has is always the case when there is an influx of a large group of people into a country who have a common ideological background fundamentally different to that of the existing norm,

Islam is not fundamentally different from the existing norm any more so than any religion is. In fact, it's a lot closer to the majority religion - Christianity, than any of the Dharmic religions. The main issue WITHIN Islam tends to be people confusing cultural customs with the religion. ie - the burqa is found nowhere outside Afghanistan and Western Pakistan, yet you have those people claming it's an "Islamic article of faith" which it isn't.

Also people don't seem to know that pretty much EVERY immigrant group goes through a few phases of integrating, while society at large needs to go through phases of making itself more accepting. This is a universal fact - every group has to reconcile two identities, two cultures, and it may take a generation or so to do it. Take a look at any group and you'll find that groups become more and more integrated as time goes on, usually fully within 1-2 generations, so long as Canadian society keeps pace in becoming more accepting.

And by accepting I mean dealing with things like laws and policies which act as barriers to people's Charter Rights. I also mean people in general taking an interest in learning about the experiences of people who come from all sorts of different backgrounds.

Islam will change Canadian society, particularly that of south-central Ontario, and it will not always be for the good;

I live in Toronto and have yet to notice any significant changes for the worse here become of immigration of Muslim-Canadians that isn't consistent with past immigration trends. The fears about Islamic extremism mirror those about Italian organized crime in the 50's and 60's, it was a problem, but it was dealt with, especially from within the community once it became more integrated. I don't see any current problems that are much greater than the problems that other groups have had to deal with on their journey of integrating into Canadian society.

Sadly people like you fail to realize that Canada, despite its faults, does not have an inherently bad society that constantly needs to be revamped, that there are institutions and traditions that are worth preserving, and that the constant influx of people who hold fundamentally different ideological outlooks (this is NOT about race) can and has been detrimental to Canada as a whole.

Now that was a paragraph full of assumptions. I'd like to see you cite quotes from myself to prove all your accusations, because otherwise it just seems like you're being lazy.

For the record:

- I don't believe Canada is an inherently bad society - I believe it's an inherently good society. That's why I love it and choose to remain living here. That said, there are bad aspects to it that I feel can be improved to make it even better. I don't understand what you'd have me do? I honestly believe I see a problem in society - should I try and fix it or not? Is it unpatriotic to admit that there are issues in Canada that need improvement? Great nations stay great because their citizens never put up their feet and rest on their laurels.

- This isn't an either/or argument - there are traditions and institutions that are working great and should be preserved, and there are some which are showing their age and need to be revamped, and others that have become archaic and obsolete. There is a third choice, you don't just have to keep everything the way it's always been or toss everything. Case in point - women's rights in Canada. It was after all - tradition to deny women their rights as human beings under the law, but we changed that once it became clear how archaic it was. You don't keep things around just because "it's tradition" you keep them around because they are valuable to society, and if a certain tradition that has its roots in a reality unlike today is causing more harm than good - you don't keep it around "just because"

- I've grown up with multiculturalism as an everyday reality for myself, and I've yet to see that immigration has done anything but overall benefited Canadian society.

[JB Globe]

In response to my quote: "This isn't 1959, you can't turn back the clock." You said:

Actually, yes you can, and that's what's happening by allowing large numbers of Muslims into Canada.

Wheras my quote referred to white nationalists' futile attempts to turn Canada back into a nation dominated by Anglo-Canadian culture, you seem to be saying that Muslims are the ones who will turn the clock back. I can only assume you're insinuating that Islam = backward in your mind, therefor more Muslim immigrants mean more backwardness - which I find to be stereotypical and no reflective of the reality of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't disagree that some Muslims readily integrate and assimilate into Canadian society,

Well I disagree with that. It's actually that MOST Muslims readily integrate and assimilate into Canadian society.

but has is always the case when there is an influx of a large group of people into a country who have a common ideological background fundamentally different to that of the existing norm,

Islam is not fundamentally different from the existing norm any more so than any religion is. In fact, it's a lot closer to the majority religion - Christianity, than any of the Dharmic religions. The main issue WITHIN Islam tends to be people confusing cultural customs with the religion. ie - the burqa is found nowhere outside Afghanistan and Western Pakistan, yet you have those people claming it's an "Islamic article of faith" which it isn't.

Also people don't seem to know that pretty much EVERY immigrant group goes through a few phases of integrating, while society at large needs to go through phases of making itself more accepting. This is a universal fact - every group has to reconcile two identities, two cultures, and it may take a generation or so to do it. Take a look at any group and you'll find that groups become more and more integrated as time goes on, usually fully within 1-2 generations, so long as Canadian society keeps pace in becoming more accepting.

And by accepting I mean dealing with things like laws and policies which act as barriers to people's Charter Rights. I also mean people in general taking an interest in learning about the experiences of people who come from all sorts of different backgrounds.

Islam will change Canadian society, particularly that of south-central Ontario, and it will not always be for the good;

I live in Toronto and have yet to notice any significant changes for the worse here become of immigration of Muslim-Canadians that isn't consistent with past immigration trends. The fears about Islamic extremism mirror those about Italian organized crime in the 50's and 60's, it was a problem, but it was dealt with, especially from within the community once it became more integrated. I don't see any current problems that are much greater than the problems that other groups have had to deal with on their journey of integrating into Canadian society.

Sadly people like you fail to realize that Canada, despite its faults, does not have an inherently bad society that constantly needs to be revamped, that there are institutions and traditions that are worth preserving, and that the constant influx of people who hold fundamentally different ideological outlooks (this is NOT about race) can and has been detrimental to Canada as a whole.

Now that was a paragraph full of assumptions. I'd like to see you cite quotes from myself to prove all your accusations, because otherwise it just seems like you're being lazy.

For the record:

- I don't believe Canada is an inherently bad society - I believe it's an inherently good society. That's why I love it and choose to remain living here. That said, there are bad aspects to it that I feel can be improved to make it even better. I don't understand what you'd have me do? I honestly believe I see a problem in society - should I try and fix it or not? Is it unpatriotic to admit that there are issues in Canada that need improvement? Great nations stay great because their citizens never put up their feet and rest on their laurels.

- This isn't an either/or argument - there are traditions and institutions that are working great and should be preserved, and there are some which are showing their age and need to be revamped, and others that have become archaic and obsolete. There is a third choice, you don't just have to keep everything the way it's always been or toss everything. Case in point - women's rights in Canada. It was after all - tradition to deny women their rights as human beings under the law, but we changed that once it became clear how archaic it was. You don't keep things around just because "it's tradition" you keep them around because they are valuable to society, and if a certain tradition that has its roots in a reality unlike today is causing more harm than good - you don't keep it around "just because"

- I've grown up with multiculturalism as an everyday reality for myself, and I've yet to see that immigration has done anything but overall benefited Canadian society.

[kuzadd]

So what you are saying is that you are unable to distinguish between a deity and a prophet.

Wow. I now know for sure that you do not know anyone that is a muslim!

They would tell you unequivocally that jesus is NOT in any way shape or form a deity in their religion.

Then make sure to tell them they are wrong when they tell you that!

lol

link: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_deity_of_Islam

whitedoors look at the defintion, I know this is difficult for you but look at the definition.

A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

preternatural or supernatural Jesus of Islam fits that description

not always, of significant power, Jesus of Islam fits that description

but held in high regard, or respected by human beings. Jesus of Islam fits that description.

by the most basic defintion of deity, Jesus of Islam fits.

split hairs away, but if the shoe fits , wear it, I say and Jesus of Islam is revered as a deity.

by your narrow foolish definition , God is therefore the only deity christians revere,right ?

Except that is not the case, as Christians also revere the prophet Jesus as the son of God.

Thats 2 deities for christianity!

Yup God the father and Jesus the son, are both deities, check the definition!

If you cannot grasp the most basic of definitions , well what more can I say?

BTW: that is all the time I am wasting in debating such nonsense with you.

Edited March 11, 2008 by kuzadd

[Argus]

In response to my quote: "This isn't 1959, you can't turn back the clock." You said:

Wheras my quote referred to white nationalists' futile attempts to turn Canada back into a nation dominated by Anglo-Canadian culture, you seem to be saying that Muslims are the ones who will turn the clock back. I can only assume you're insinuating that Islam = backward in your mind, therefor more Muslim immigrants mean more backwardness - which I find to be stereotypical and no reflective of the reality of the situation.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're wrong. Muslims are backward. In fact, by our standards they are social and cultural barbarians.

Well I disagree with that. It's actually that MOST Muslims readily integrate and assimilate into Canadian society.

Although there's actually no evidence to support that.

Islam is not fundamentally different from the existing norm any more so than any religion is

.

You mean like Satanism isn't fundamentally different from "the norm"? No religion is fundamentally different from "the norm"? Perhaps if your "norm" is stretched so broadly as to encompass anyone and everything, regardless of how wildly diverse it or they are. You know, the Amish have cultural practices which in many respects are closer to that of the Muslims than everyday Canadians and they have NEVER blended in. They continue to cling stubbornly to their way of life. What makes you think the Muslims won't? There's a hell of a lot more Muslims here than Amish. If the Amish can retain their cultural habits why wouldn't the Muslims?

The main issue WITHIN Islam tends to be people confusing cultural customs with the religion. ie - the burqa is found nowhere outside Afghanistan and Western Pakistan, yet you have those people claming it's an "Islamic article of faith" which it isn't.

Versions of it are found throghout the Muslim world, increasingly so, in fact. Yes, the burqua, in covering the face entirely, is an extreme compared to the chadors so widely worn throughout the Muslim world to - as a previous Iranian President said keep the deadly rays of women's hair that drives men insane under cover. But regardless of whether it's a burqua or a chador, Muslim women have hardly thrown off their feters now that they're in the new land. Quite to the contrary, they are embracing them and insisting - by violence if necessary - that their daughters continue the practice.

Also people don't seem to know that pretty much EVERY immigrant group goes through a few phases of integrating, while society at large needs to go through phases of making itself more accepting.

You seem to be saying that because Irish and Scots and Dutch and Germans integrated with us there's no reason these people won't, as well. This completely disregards their wildly different religious beliefs and the fact those religious beliefs govern every aspect of their lives, and it completely overlooks how vastly different are the cultural practices of these immigrants compared to ours - as opposed to the cultural practices of Europeans to ours. It's like basically saying - well, all different kind of dogs manage to get along here once they get used to each other - so there's no reason these new cats won't get along with the dogs too.

This is a universal fact - every group has to reconcile two identities, two cultures, and it may take a generation or so to do it. Take a look at any group and you'll find that groups become more and more integrated as time goes on, usually fully within 1-2 generations, so long as Canadian society keeps pace in becoming more accepting.

And you know this because..... we've never had an immigration group made up of such a wildly different culture before - except for the Chinese, who came in long ago - and took a very, very long time to integrate despite their considerably smaller numbers. We never had Muslims in Canada prior to the 70s, so since almost all Muslims in Canada are first or second generation exactly what are you basing your historical wisdom on?

Again, just because the collie and the german shepherd and the beagle and the greyhound managed to find common ground doesn't mean the siamese will fit in with them.

[jefferiah]

Muslims are required by God to believe in all of the Prophets. These include Jesus and John the Baptist peace be upon them. The Quran, the Islamic holy book, also instructs Muslims to believe in the books revealed to every Prophet as well. The book given to Jesus is called Injeel in the Quran.

Muslims love Jesus. We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.

The fact that they are required to believe in something does not mean that they worship it. This is where you have it entirely wrong, and your original assertion that prompted this argument was that they worshipped Jesus. For instance Kuzadd, I believe in you and that you exist, but I most certainly do not worship you as a deity. I am not using this as an argument against accepting Muslims or a reason to be intolerant about them. I am simply correcting your mistake. Jews do not worship Jesus either, nor do Buddhists. So perhaps there is something more to Islamic culture that makes people critical, than simple ignorant bigotry. That is not to say that all Muslims are bad either. But to say we should encourage more (and specifically) Muslims to come to Canada is strange. Why should we not encourage more Australian aborigines for instance? Why not left-handed lesbians of Latvia?

You presume to know more about Islam than Muslims do it seems.

"Worship

Q: Do muslims worship Muhammad (pbuh) ?

A: No! Muslims worship Allah alone.

The label "Mohammedans" which implies that Muslim worship Mohammad is therefore misleading and blasphemous. Muslims respect Mohammad as the final messenger of Allah."

http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/FAQ...AQ_worship.html

"Was Muhammad the founder of Islam and do Muslims worship him?

In: Islam

Of course not! Muslims don't worship but the one and only Allah.

Muhammed (pbuh) was the messenger of Allah.please read below.. "

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Muhammad_the...ims_worship_him

"DO Muslims worship Muhammad (pbuh)?

According to Islamic belief, the Prophet Muhammad was the last Messenger of God.

He, like all of God's prophets and messengers - such as Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus -- was only a human being.

Christians came to the mistaken assumption that Muslims worship Muhammad by formulating an incorrect analogy - they worship Jesus so they assumed Muslims worship Muhammad."

"Suffice it to say that worshipping Muhammad --- or anyone else --- along with Almighty God is considered to be the worst sin in Islam."

http://askmuslims.com/worship.html

I challenge you to go to an Islamic forum and ask whether or not they worship Jesus.

Edited March 11, 2008 by jefferiah

[Leafless]

Ok I can see the Que angle, but it doesnt answer what "policies" were implemented by the Govt to ensure people could keep their culture.

It is policy within Charter rights and Freedoms for foreigners to retain their culture.

This of course must be TRUE or the federal government would not have created a $920-million dollar immigration fund to help immigrants integrate into Canadian society.

Ten million dollars has been alocated to help 180,000 immigrants in Ottawa with half of them being here since 1991.

In Ontario alone:

There will be more announcements in Ottawa and across the province as more agencies sign agreements with the federal government, says Doug Kellam, spokesman for Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

"The plan for this year is to spend $146.3 million in 2007-2008," says Mr. Kellam.

Integration though is not the same as assimilation and as a result foreign immgrants will still be able to retain their culture despite vast amounts of money being spent IMO for nothing.

Immigrants should be tapped from more compatible sources relating to Canada's majority culture.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/c...1f-f746c7c02c7a

[kengs333]

The fears about Islamic extremism mirror those about Italian organized crime in the 50's and 60's, it was a problem, but it was dealt with, especially from within the community once it became more integrated.

Actually, no, it doesn't "mirror" any fears about "Italian organized crime"--far from it. Islam and organized crime are two totally different things. Organized crime is something that exists on the fringes and is engaged in by a relatively small group of people. Islam, whatever its form, is something that all Muslims adhere to; how many Muslims are there in Canada, and can you honestly say that ALL of them are completely removed from any influence from the Muslim world and are redefining their belief system to suit secular Canadian society? No you can't.

Oh, and by the way, if you think that "organized crime" has been effectively dealt with in Canada, you are sadly mistaken. If anything, Canada's failure to do so should make us all concerned for what's in store for Canada should the current immigration trend continue.

I hate to say such things because I used to have all those fuzzy feeling about Canada being a multicultural society, too.

[kuzadd]

The fact that they are required to believe in something does not mean that they worship it.

do you know worship means: love, adore ,revere???

Ardent devotion; adoration.

To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion

worship - a feeling of profound love and admiration

look at what you quoted

We also love Abraham, Moses, and Noah, to name just a few other Prophets Muslims revere. May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God.

Muslims also love and revere including Jesus ,other Prophets , and then the person blesses the profits very beings /deities "May God's peace be upon all of these great messengers of God'

Interestingly, how I learned about Jesus of Islam, was from a lovely letter written by a muslim , how much Jesus is revered (worshipped), by muslims as a prophet, it was in the toronto star around christmas time, so I started to do some reading on it.

IF you prefer the narrow defintion of worship , so be it, but, it is clear Jesus of Islam is worshipped.

I worship the rolling stones, but, I say no prayers , offer no gifts, but I listen reverently to their music!!!!!

Edited March 12, 2008 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Actually, no, it doesn't "mirror" any fears about "Italian organized crime"--far from it. Islam and organized crime are two totally different things. Organized crime is something that exists on the fringes and is engaged in by a relatively small group of people. Islam, whatever its form, is something that all Muslims adhere to; how many Muslims are there in Canada, and can you honestly say that ALL of them are completely removed from any influence from the Muslim world and are redefining their belief system to suit secular Canadian society? No you can't.

Oh, and by the way, if you think that "organized crime" has been effectively dealt with in Canada, you are sadly mistaken. If anything, Canada's failure to do so should make us all concerned for what's in store for Canada should the current immigration trend continue.

I hate to say such things because I used to have all those fuzzy feeling about Canada being a multicultural society, too.

I

Actually JBGlobe is correct the fears around Islam very much mirror the fears of Italians in general, not just the mafia, though that did play a role in it. I can see and hear the similarities in far to many postings here and in general. My father is an Italian immigrant. I posted an article here about the numerous stereotypes promoted against Italians, and can tell you some stories of my own, as my Dad can. Bigotry always rears it's ugly head, when something new or different comes along, particularily from small-minded individuals.

find that post here

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=292032

I'll include some snippets:

It uses crude or unfair stereotypes about Italian people, a popular one being that most Italians are unnaturally violent, or somehow associated with the Mafia. Aside from the bigotry inherent in this idea, it is also statistically improbable. Like most racist and biased sentiments, anti-Italianism often uses discrimination, prejudice, and even violence.

excessively violent-same sentiments exposed towards Islam

cause "my dad is in the mafia"

guess how many times I have been asked that, just guess, by many ignorant , foolish people?

The fear of Italians reproducing too much played a small role in Margaret Sanger's drive toward encouraging birth control

same sentiments towards Islam

Many Americans saw the swarthy, darker skinned Italians as a "missing link" between whites and blacks. In some areas of the South, as well as the North, Italians were "semisegregated."

not good for all the "white' people, eh?

Italian American internment during World War II

During World War II, thousands of Italian Americans as well as thousands of Italian Canadians were put in internment camps on American and Canadian soil,

like Muslims now, interred for being Muslims, but hey we can apoloigze and pay them out of taxpayers dollars, something Italians have never gotten.

Italians were also lynched.

So JBGlobe, if I am correct in identifying you, you are correct in noting the similarites and kengs, you are woefully mistaken.

[White Doors]

whitedoors look at the defintion, I know this is difficult for you but look at the definition.

A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

preternatural or supernatural Jesus of Islam fits that description

not always, of significant power, Jesus of Islam fits that description

but held in high regard, or respected by human beings. Jesus of Islam fits that description.

by the most basic defintion of deity, Jesus of Islam fits.

split hairs away, but if the shoe fits , wear it, I say and Jesus of Islam is revered as a deity.

by your narrow foolish definition , God is therefore the only deity christians revere,right ?

Except that is not the case, as Christians also revere the prophet Jesus as the son of God.

Thats 2 deities for christianity!

Yup God the father and Jesus the son, are both deities, check the definition!

If you cannot grasp the most basic of definitions , well what more can I say?

BTW: that is all the time I am wasting in debating such nonsense with you.

What can I say. you are not only completely wrong and know it. You are the most stubborn person I have ever met. it is no wonder you are a fringe person.

Truth 1: Jesus is NOT a deity in Islam. (sorry if I take a muslims word over yours)

2) Jesus IS a deity in the Christian religion. Some believe in the trinity (father, son and holy ghost) and others believe that Jesus was God (allah) himself as the human reincarnation on earth.

3) Jews also believe that Jesus was a prophet. Do you think that they also believe Jesus to be a deity? You must if you think Muslims do.

There are jewish posters here so I will leave it to them to educate you on that.

All three are 'Abrahamic' faiths, but only Christians believe that Jesus of Nazereth is a Deity.

This is religion 101. You shoudl really try to understand the basics Kuzadd before you pretend to be an expert.

[guyser]

It is policy within Charter rights and Freedoms for foreigners to retain their culture.

Does it say in the Charter that immigrants can do so?

This of course must be TRUE or the federal government would not have created a $920-million dollar immigration fund to help immigrants integrate into Canadian society.

Well,is that money to help them integrate, as you put it now, or to retain their own culture? It cant be both.

Integration though is not the same as assimilation and as a result foreign immgrants will still be able to retain their culture despite vast amounts of money being spent IMO for nothing.

Will they be able to retain the culture or is the govt passing legislation to enforce they do? Thats what you said earlier.

I just want to know, what policies have our govts passed to ensure this?

[jefferiah]

IF you prefer the narrow defintion of worship , so be it, but, it is clear Jesus of Islam is worshipped.

And yet, Muslims themselves insist that they do not worship Jesus. Do you claim to know more than they do about Islam? Perhaps your argument is with them Kuzadd. And no, Muslims do not have ardent adoration or devotion for Jesus, neither.

So I mean you have said already that you won't waste your time debating with us. More power to you. You should go and start trying to convince the Muslims that they worship Jesus.

In the religious sense, worship has a more powerful meaning than the one you have given. This is why not only Argus and I, will continue insisting that Muslims do not worship Jesus, but Muslims themselves will agree.

Edited March 12, 2008 by jefferiah

[kuzadd]

And yet, Muslims themselves insist that they do not worship Jesus. Do you claim to know more than they do about Islam? Perhaps your argument is with them Kuzadd. And no, Muslims do not have ardent adoration or devotion for Jesus, neither.

So I mean you have said already that you won't waste your time debating with us. More power to you. You should go and start trying to convince the Muslims that they worship Jesus.

In the religious sense, worship has a more powerful meaning than the one you have given. This is why not only Argus and I, will continue insisting that Muslims do not worship Jesus, but Muslims themselves will agree.

I don't write in the religious sense. I write as the words are themselves defined.

yet, I read a letter from a muslim, stating they do "worship" jesus , not in the narrow meaning you are utilizing but , in the definition of the actual word itself, not limited to religious interpretation.

Perhaps the difference in "worship" your interpretation and mine, is that I define it, as the word itself is defined, and you define it in a narrow religious context.

therein lies the rub, unfortunately as long as they hold jesus in high regard and love and revere him, it is indeed worship, perhaps not in your interpretation, but as the word worship is defined it is correct nonetheless. I have posted numerous defintions of the word worship.

I informed you I worship the rolling stones music. I also worship David Bowie, no alters or prayers just adulation and reverance to great lyrics, guitar riffs and fabulous concerts. The word "worship" doesn't rely soley on religious overtones. So by DEFINTION OF THE WORD, my use of it was correct.

Do you dispute this? Based on the defintion of the word, and not your narrow interpretation of it only?

worship is not soley a religious word, you do realize that , do you not?

Edited March 12, 2008 by kuzadd

[mikedavid00]

I'm not interested in what's fair for foreigners. I only care what's best for Canada.

Bingo.

[eyeball]

Immigrants should be tapped from more compatible sources relating to Canada's majority culture.

Why? This makes no sense in a global economy and correspondingly cosmopolitan world. I doubt very much if you'd advocate economic isolationism or being selective about who you take money from.

I would have thought trying to attract people with a real talent for getting along, something that could only benefit Canada would be greeted with something a little more positive. Would you advocate allowing immigrant corporations into Canada that have a talent for buying up our industries and shipping them off to China? Corporations are people too, shouldn't it be as easy to stop them from entering Canada when their motives are incompatible with our economy?

[kengs333]

particularily from small-minded individuals.

Oh, right, whatever. Yeah, this all has to do with my being "small-minded" rather than a legitimate concern for my country based on facts about Islam. So for fear of being labelled "ignorant" or a "bigot" I should just quietly accept the fact that the people who run this country have decided on an immigration policy that could possibly undermine the values that have made this country it has been up until now. Remember, we're talking about Islam, a religion, an ideology, and what effect that it will have on Canada. All one has to do is look at the effects that it has had on just about every other region that it has spread to. It's neither "foolish" nor "ignorant" to have legitimate concerns about what an ideology could do to a country's future stability.

While we're on the subject, the fact that you'd raise the point that you're Italian and are pursuing the line of reasoning that you are is very, very interesting. It would seem to me that there is some credibility to the concerns of our forefathers seeing how the Vatican opperates, and one can understand these concerns considering what has become of Canada since Trudeau came to power.

Italians were also lynched.

When was this?

Edited March 12, 2008 by kengs333

[kuzadd]

While we're on the subject, the fact that you'd raise the point that you're Italian and are pursuing the line of reasoning that you are is very, very interesting. It would seem to me that there is some credibility to the concerns of our forefathers seeing how the Vatican opperates, and one can understand these concerns considering what has become of Canada since Trudeau came to power.

When was this?

It would seem to me that there is some credibility to the concerns of our forefathers seeing how the Vatican opperates, and one can understand these concerns considering what has become of Canada since Trudeau came to power.

what?????

re: to lynching of Italians

go to the link I provided, read the link within that post.

the fact that you'd raise the point that you're Italian

I am not Italian, I am Canadian.

To be Italian I would have to have been born in Italy, I am not.

The point I am making wrt to my Italian ancestry is that much of what I hear and read wrt Muslims, is what I heard and read and was exposed to as a descendant of an Italian immigrant.

[mikedavid00]

I am not Italian, I am Canadian.

To be Italian I would have to have been born in Italy, I am not.

The above statement is why most italians have integrated and most south asians and other asians have not and most likely will not.

I personally do not appreciate Italians in general and choose not to do business with them if I don't have to. Italians... 'bug me'.

I am planning a wedding and now I know why people on wedding forums specifically ask for non-italian owned businesses.

It's funny how myself, and other whites can say these things about Italians and not be labeled racists. However, you talk about a Muslim or Sikh and you are a racist. I think this is because we subconsciously consider italian canadians to be Canadian, although many of them do not. Those who do not should leave the country.

Survey says that almost half Canadian born children of visible minority status do NOT identify themselves as Canadian (most likely due to the racist, xenephobic policies taught by their parents).

I ask an open question if you feel these people should reside in Canada. I ask you how these people benefit Canada. I ask you how these people will be good neighbours and citizens.

The aging population is going to create 'mass job shortages' (they've been saying this since I was a kid and up until the dollar value at par, we've had historically high unemployment throught Canada with few exceptions).

Nova Scotia has a thousands of Univeristy grads each year, +7% unemployment, yet the CBC says they 'desperately need skilled immigrants'.

Just how stupid, for how *long* do you think Canadians are going to be towards immigration?

Especially when citizens can now havea voice and broadcast themslves on Youtube?