Muslim Immigration and Integration

[guyser]

Hey md, where have you been?

I personally do not appreciate Italians in general and choose not to do business with them if I don't have to. Italians... 'bug me'.

It's funny how myself, and other whites can say these things about Italians and not be labeled racists.

Um...ya sure about that?

[kuzadd]

Hey md, where have you been?

Um...ya sure about that?

yes, he is sure about that, because he just did it and likely does it often.

It has been generally acceptable to abuse Italians.

[guyser]

yes, he is sure about that, because he just did it and likely does it often.

It has been generally acceptable to abuse Italians.

I dont doubt that from a first hand experience you have witnessed this.

My experience with Italians has been the opposite. Sure they get a little bit of abuse, as in "its an Italian thing...roll eyes" but on thw whole I found them to be accepted.

I work with and am surrounded by Italians everyday. Plenty of our clients are , (oops almost used the without papers word that I hear from Italians everyday) Italian. There is plenty of racial teasing and name calling that occurs in this office on a daily basis.And not one person minds.It goes both ways. I probably get called a cake twice as much as I call them any derogatory name.

What I find fascinating is how can one abuse a group that on the whole.....

1) minds their own business

2) keeps a clean house out and in 24-7 (which makes them shitty neighbours...for me...)

3) plants and tends to a garden from april to october

4) are in bed by 10pm so no noise ever, oh wait Sundays can be loud

5) always have a smile and biscotti/espresso for you even if they dont speak english.

I have given up trying to see my italian clients during the day. Since I know their MO, and reluctance to ever change, I always book them at dinnertime. Why try going to see them at 3 when they force you to eat? I now go at 6 and get a great meal, some good wine, always dessert and espresso and afterwards we do business. Then when I go, depending on the season of course, I go home with a bag of lettuce , a half sack of tomatoes, some proscuitto, or supprasatta (sp?) etc?

I try to say no, but the kids look at me and shake their heads, take it, dont insult my mom and dad.

About twice a month.....I eat very well on their dime. No complaints. ....at least not from this cake.

[kuzadd]

'mikedavid00'

The above statement is why most italians have integrated and most south asians and other asians have not and most likely will not.

the statement i made is a statement of fact.

I personally do not appreciate Italians in general and choose not to do business with them if I don't have to. Italians... 'bug me'.

your loss

I am planning a wedding and now I know why people on wedding forums specifically ask for non-italian owned businesses

.

too bad some of the best caterer's in my area are Italian, great food!

It's funny how myself, and other whites can say these things about Italians and not be labeled

racists.

Yes it's funny as in odd, how you and other whites can say things about Italians and actually be foolish enough to think you won't be labelled a racist.

Particularily in light of

myself and the other whites

kind of commment.

However, you talk about a Muslim or Sikh and you are a racist. I think this is because we subconsciously consider italian canadians to be Canadian, although many of them do not. Those who do not should leave the country.

Given they way you talk here, regardless of Muslim, Sikh or Italian, I would consider you a racist.

Survey says that almost half Canadian born children of visible minority status do NOT identify themselves as Canadian (most likely due to the racist, xenephobic policies taught by their parents).

A more likely reason for visible minorities to not identify themselves as Canadians, may have much to due with the nasty attitude/ reception they get from alleged 'superior ethnicities', (such as the one you purport to belong to), people who have learned racist , xenophobic policies taught to them by their own parents,who then are nasty and abusive to immigrants.

I ask an open question if you feel these people should reside in Canada. I ask you how these people benefit Canada. I ask you how these people will be good neighbours and citizens.

Yup, I think they should!

[kuzadd]

I dont doubt that from a first hand experience you have witnessed this.

My experience with Italians has been the opposite. Sure they get a little bit of abuse, as in "its an Italian thing...roll eyes" but on thw whole I found them to be accepted.

What I find fascinating is how can one abuse a group that on the whole.....

1) minds their own business

2) keeps a clean house out and in 24-7 (which makes them shitty neighbours...for me...)

3) plants and tends to a garden from april to october

4) are in bed by 10pm so no noise ever, oh wait Sundays can be loud

5) always have a smile and biscotti/espresso for you even if they dont speak english.

I have given up trying to see my italian clients during the day. Since I know their MO, and reluctance to ever change, I always book them at dinnertime. Why try going to see them at 3 when they force you to eat? I now go at 6 and get a great meal, some good wine, always dessert and espresso and afterwards we do business. Then when I go, depending on the season of course, I go home with a bag of lettuce , a half sack of tomatoes, some proscuitto, or supprasatta (sp?) etc?

I try to say no, but the kids look at me and shake their heads, take it, dont insult my mom and dad.

About twice a month.....I eat very well on their dime. No complaints. ....at least not from this cake.

What I find fascinating is how can one abuse a group that on the whole.....

and yet some people do!

Italians are hard working, decent , very family oriented people. when I was a youngster, we used to all get together, and picnic in the summer, hit the beach, parents playing cards. and always talking, complete with arm waving. Italians are a passionate lot, and they display it in all they do, in the way they communicate,lots of hugs and kisses. always. They are warm good-hearted people.

God, I love the food!. I love frittata's , biscotti, soppresatta, and more.

Of course pasta, which I still cook and make my own tomato sauce, oh and yummy, basil, love the stuff, for pesto!

Proscuitto ? home made and cacciatore sausages?? My family made their own sausage, wine.

In the community I live we have a heritage society/multicultural center , and all ethnicities are embraced, and participate in festivals and more together.

Recently we have many immigrants to our city from South America, and the Columbians/Nicarauguans/ Salvadorans have partaken in that festival, I count some great friends within that community. They also talk alot with their hands and our expressive, I identify greatly with them!

So you get called a "cake eater" eh? mangia cake?

If they like you and call you that, they are saying it with the greatest of affection.

I have been known to do that

Edited March 12, 2008 by kuzadd

[guyser]

So you get called a "cake eater" eh? mangia cake?

If they like you and call you that, they are saying it with the greatest of affection.

I have been known to do that

All the time, never bothers me, of course I give in reverse, never hard feelings.

[jefferiah]

worship is not soley a religious word, you do realize that , do you not?

Lol.... you know Kuzadd you are digging yourself into the realm of the utterly ridiculous now.

Several Muslim sites also use worship in this manner, because they certainly make it a point to insist that they do not worship Mohammed, who is more higly regarded than Jesus. So do you claim to know more about Islam than they do. I have given you actual Muslim websites. You mention some letter that you fail to cite. In your initial post you said they "also" "worship" Jesus. Would it not make sense to say that by including them in our "worship" of Jesus, you meant "worship" in the way we mean it. If not, then there was no point in saying it.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jefferiah

[DogOnPorch]

Lol.... you know Kuzadd you are digging yourself into the realm of the utterly ridiculous now.

Several Muslim sites also use worship in this manner, because they certainly make it a point to insist that they do not worship Mohammed, who is more higly regarded than Jesus. So do you claim to know more about Islam than they do. I have given you actual Muslim websites. You mention some letter that you fail to cite. In your initial post you said they "also" "worship" Jesus. Would it not make sense to say that by including them in our "worship" of Jesus, you meant "worship" in the way we mean it. If not, then there was no point in saying it.

Like a Chinese Finger Trap...she jus' keeps a pullin'...

------------------------------------------

Me and my arrow...

[White Doors]

It's like watching a contortionist squirming and stretching. lol

[Argus]

Italians were also lynched.

So JBGlobe, if I am correct in identifying you, you are correct in noting the similarites and kengs, you are woefully mistaken.

You, of course, are falling into exactly the same trap as others. Because in our considerably less sophisticated past there was a lot of uneducated suspicion and bigotry directed towards newcomers of different origins you are stating that the suspicion of THESE newcomers is exactly the same and should be dismissed out of hand. That's not logical. Simply because suspicions were misplaced in the past that does not tell us we should never have doubts or suspicions. Just because people in a past generation from a different culture managed to blend in does not mean that will always happen.

And people are considerably more sophisticated and open-minded in today's Canada than they were even a generation ago. The doubts expressed about the wisdom of widespread immigration by Muslims have an entirely different basis in reality than worries about the mafia. For one thing, we can examine other liberal western nations which have taken in higher numbers of muslims to see what kind of problems this has generated. This is not merely our imagination. The media from Scandinavia, Spain, France and the UK have provided numerous examples of the problems those communities face with hostile newcomers who view their new homeland's culture and people with contempt and are (literally) willing to kill to make sure they keep their own ways.

[kuzadd]

Lol.... you know Kuzadd you are digging yourself into the realm of the utterly ridiculous now.

Several Muslim sites also use worship in this manner, because they certainly make it a point to insist that they do not worship Mohammed, who is more higly regarded than Jesus. So do you claim to know more about Islam than they do. I have given you actual Muslim websites. You mention some letter that you fail to cite. In your initial post you said they "also" "worship" Jesus. Would it not make sense to say that by including them in our "worship" of Jesus, you meant "worship" in the way we mean it. If not, then there was no point in saying it.

Would it not make sense to say that by including them in our "worship" of Jesus, you meant "worship" in the way we mean it.

no it wouldn't because I do not worship Jesus the way you "mean it".

So it makes zero sense to me to use the word in a religious manner

You do of course realize the word worship is not just a religious word, right Jefferiah?

I hope you do , goodness, man.

You do realize that right??

Just answer the question, you realize that worship is not just limited to "religious practice".

I suspect you do, but, you will deny it to the end.

[kuzadd]

You, of course, are falling into exactly the same trap as others. Because in our considerably less sophisticated past there was a lot of uneducated suspicion and bigotry directed towards newcomers of different origins you are stating that the suspicion of THESE newcomers is exactly the same and should be dismissed out of hand. That's not logical. Simply because suspicions were misplaced in the past that does not tell us we should never have doubts or suspicions. Just because people in a past generation from a different culture managed to blend in does not mean that will always happen.

And people are considerably more sophisticated and open-minded in today's Canada than they were even a generation ago. The doubts expressed about the wisdom of widespread immigration by Muslims have an entirely different basis in reality than worries about the mafia. For one thing, we can examine other liberal western nations which have taken in higher numbers of muslims to see what kind of problems this has generated. This is not merely our imagination. The media from Scandinavia, Spain, France and the UK have provided numerous examples of the problems those communities face with hostile newcomers who view their new homeland's culture and people with contempt and are (literally) willing to kill to make sure they keep their own ways.

unfortunately Argus, the uneducated suspicion and bigotry, directed towards newcomers has NO different origins. It is in fact the same. It is born of an ignorance of a different culture, true ignorance, lack of knowledge of the facts of the different culture. An ignorance that in fact lies in the promotion of sterotypes as knowledge.

Fear of the different , which is pretty standard.

Despite what you think, people are not more-open minded, nor sophisticated.

One need only take a look around this forum for starters.

Suspicion and bigotry abounds.

[AngusThermopyle]

That was a rather interesting post Kuzadd, and it did contain some truth. However you entirely failed to address the point which was raised. Is it your contention that there are no problems related to Muslims in Europe? That in fact all the incidents of rape, murder, rioting are nothing more than fantasies generated by an "old" way of thinking? Or, will you admit that there is a very distinct and prevalent problem that can be placed squarely at the feet of one particular group of people?

[Pliny]

'mikedavid00'

Given they way you talk here, regardless of Muslim, Sikh or Italian, I would consider you a racist.

The problem with racism is it is taken too lightly. You can call a person a racist and get away with it for just about anything. It's a more serious thing than what people toss around in conversation. Although people should be treated equally they often won't be outside their social station, background, race, religion, ethnicity, cultural heritage, gender, whatever and wherever a discrimination between groups can be made.

It is, I think, a natural thing to feel you belong to a certain group and to feel more empathetic towards that group as opposed to another group you don't belong to; either naturally or by choice.

Unfortunately, our laws make a farce out of racism by disallowing even conversational banter to be contentious in any respect.

Racism is very serious, very serious. It has nothing to do with making jokes. It has to do with the active physical oppression and use of force or incitement to use force against an individual or another group for whatever reason. Government and the law are the only agencies in society granted the authority to use force.

Rape, murder and rioting are crimes and should not be protected by laws regarding racism to excuse them.

People get upset when someone calls them a name and figure that is racism and the worst part is that there are laws made about it. There is no longer any common sense. Socially, if we are adults, we should know verbal abuse and harassment on a continuing basis should not be tolerated. Do we really need a law for these kinds of things? Are we babies? Hmmm...Where's my pacifier.....

Edited March 13, 2008 by Pliny

[kuzadd]

That was a rather interesting post Kuzadd, and it did contain some truth. However you entirely failed to address the point which was raised. Is it your contention that there are no problems related to Muslims in Europe? That in fact all the incidents of rape, murder, rioting are nothing more than fantasies generated by an "old" way of thinking? Or, will you admit that there is a very distinct and prevalent problem that can be placed squarely at the feet of one particular group of people?

as opposed to the very things that have been said about other ethnicities previously???

do no other ethnicities, rape, or murder , or riot???

do you recall, the statements made against the Japanese during the time period of WW2?

the italians, always?

Or, will you admit that there is a very distinct and prevalent problem that can be placed squarely at the feet of one particular group of people?

I do not admit to that, because it is neither a distinct nor prevelant problem, it is instead focused on, like a glaring spotlight, to justify, our attacks on people of other countries, to excuse them, to elevate ourselves as superior , righteous and justified in our actions.

It is the oldest wartime trick in the book.

[Leafless]

as opposed to the very things that have been said about other ethnicities previously???

do no other ethnicities, rape, or murder , or riot???

No, not on the scale and not as minorties in a foreign country, especially with a having reputation as murderous terrorist around the world.

What would happen to minority Whites in Pakistan if they raped, murder, riot the same way Muslims do in France?

[jefferiah]

no it wouldn't because I do not worship Jesus the way you "mean it".

So it makes zero sense to me to use the word in a religious manner

You do of course realize the word worship is not just a religious word, right Jefferiah?

Lol. Once again Kuzadd, I will point out:

Your comparison-- "Muslims also worship Jesus"-- has nothing to do with how you worship Jesus. When we use the word "also", it implies that we mean it in the same way. Or else it would be a useless comparison to make. I never said that any religion had ownership rights to the term. But it makes no sense to switch between two meanings of the word in a comparison.

Take for example these two sentences:

I like to poll (conduct surveys).

I also like to poll (a boat).

While both are meanings of the word "poll" it makes little sense to use them in this case with an "also". Though granted your "worship" and the religious sense of the word "worship" (which is reserved for God alone), are perhaps closer in meaning than these two examples of the word "poll", the difference is still great enough that everyone understands that Muslims do not worship Jesus or Mohammed but only Allah. And I am not the one saying this. This is from Islamic websites. Since Christians use the term worship in the religious manner and their worship of Jesus is in that manner, you are now using the word "worship" with two different meanings connected by an "also", which we use to imply similar meaning. So either you did mean "worship" in the religious sense and are trying so hard to sidestep being wrong that you will say just about anything, or you like to make comparisons that do not make sense.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jefferiah

[Leafless]

Does it say in the Charter that immigrants can do so?

Well,is that money to help them integrate, as you put it now, or to retain their own culture? It cant be both.

You probably think integrate means assimilate.

THINK AGAIN.

Will they be able to retain the culture or is the govt passing legislation to enforce they do? Thats what you said earlier.

The government does nothing to encourage assimilation. Official multiculturalism and the Charter allows foreign cultures to retain their foreign culture. That is the policy of government.

Is this not allowing Muslims or other foreign cultures to retain their culture.

Integration ALLOWS Muslims to retain their CULTURE.

[kuzadd]

Lol. Once again Kuzadd, I will point out:

Your comparison-- "Muslims also worship Jesus"-- has nothing to do with how you worship Jesus. When we use the word "also", it implies that we mean it in the same way. Or else it would be a useless comparison to make. I never said that any religion had ownership rights to the term. But it makes no sense to switch between two meanings of the word in a comparison.

Take for example these two sentences:

I like to poll (conduct surveys).

I also like to poll (a boat).

While both are meanings of the word "poll" it makes little sense to use them in this case with an "also". Though granted your "worship" and the religious sense of the word "worship" (which is reserved for God alone), are perhaps closer in meaning than these two examples of the word "poll", the difference is still great enough that everyone understands that Muslims do not worship Jesus or Mohammed but only Allah. And I am not the one saying this. This is from Islamic websites. Since Christians use the term worship in the religious manner and their worship of Jesus is in that manner, you are now using the word "worship" with two different meanings connected by an "also", which we use to imply similar meaning. So either you did mean "worship" in the religious sense and are trying so hard to sidestep being wrong that you will say just about anything, or you like to make comparisons that do not make sense.

unfortunately you think it's meaning is the same to me , as it is to you.

But when I said, I worship the stones or david bowie, did you think I meant it, in the same way, you worship Jesus??? '

Your comparison-- "Muslims also worship Jesus"-- has nothing to do with how you worship Jesus. When we use the word "also", it implies that we mean it in the same way

'

This is where you are mistaken, since I am writing the sentence, I would use the words in MY sentence, based on MY interpretation of it. That's the way we all write,here on this forum, in OUR own words. Unless your writing here in someone else's words, I don't think so though? Are you?

That is why you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here, because, you "worship' in one way, and I 'worship' in another way, and you are interpreting in your manner and I am interpreting in MY own manner.

What you should have done was ask me for clarification of my intent in using the word , rather then pilling on wild erratic accusations based on your own interpretations.

Edited March 13, 2008 by kuzadd

[White Doors]

unfortunately Argus, the uneducated suspicion and bigotry, directed towards newcomers has NO different origins. It is in fact the same. It is born of an ignorance of a different culture, true ignorance, lack of knowledge of the facts of the different culture. An ignorance that in fact lies in the promotion of sterotypes as knowledge.

Fear of the different , which is pretty standard.

Despite what you think, people are not more-open minded, nor sophisticated.

One need only take a look around this forum for starters.

Suspicion and bigotry abounds.

Would that be like you saying that Muslims worship Jesus and consider him a deity?

Becuase I agree! that statement is ignorant!

[White Doors]

That is why you are making a mountain out of a mole hill here, because, you "worship' in one way, and I 'worship' in another way, and you are interpreting in your manner and I am interpreting in MY own manner.

What you should have done was ask me for clarification of my intent in using the word , rather then pilling on wild erratic accusations based on your own interpretations.

So you agree now that Islam does nto worship Jesus nor do they consider him to be a deity?

Because you were saying that they did. Even when it was repeatedly pointed out to you that they do NOT.

Do you always find it this hard to admit that you made a mistake?

[JB Globe]

You're wrong. Muslims are backward. In fact, by our standards they are social and cultural barbarians.

And what personal experiences with Muslims has lead you do believe this?

[JB Globe]

Actually, no, it doesn't "mirror" any fears about "Italian organized crime"--far from it. Islam and organized crime are two totally different things.

Let me clarify - what I meant to say is that both things are problems within a certain community of new immigrants to Canada, and like the rise of the mob in Canada during the 50's, Islamic extremism will most likely be controlled and dealt with - people from the community start cooperating with law enforcement, and (most importantly) start joining law enforcement at the same time as police forces start doing a better job of throwing the bigots out of their ranks, thus allowing those with the most cultural expertise to really make inroads in the fight against the respective problems. In fact I'd like to argue this is happening already, after all, the "Toronto Terror" plot was brought down primarily because a devout Muslim worked with the RCMP from the beginning to bring down that "cell"

I know that structurally they are different problems, but they are similar in that they were problems that were specific to a certain ethnic group. They are similar because they were/are both used by critics of immigration as evidence as to why immigration is a bad thing - I was doing research for a documentary on immigration last year and was blown away between the similarities in old newspaper editorials between the arguments about "why Italian immigration / Muslim immigration is bad" yet now we don't here any more of that because Italians such as my father have had the time to integrate and society has become more accepting (either out of recognizing the benefits of integration, or because the bigots in society moved on to focus on groups that were "more foreign" aka - African & Muslim immigrants).

Organized crime is something that exists on the fringes and is engaged in by a relatively small group of people. Islam, whatever its form, is something that all Muslims adhere to;

I'm going to give you a chance to clarify here, after all I clarified just before - because it seems like you're saying that organized crime and Islam are the same thing. A better comparison would be organized crime and ISLAMIC EXTREMISM. Both those things exist on the fringes, after all.

how many Muslims are there in Canada, and can you honestly say that ALL of them are completely removed from any influence from the Muslim world and are redefining their belief system to suit secular Canadian society? No you can't.

Well I'm talking about integration, not assimilation. That means that people who immigrate here don't have to commit cultural suicide - they don't have to cut that deep-rooted part of their identity out and adopt "traditional Canadian culture" (which I put in quotes because I believe the term is code for Anglo-Canadian culture, which is only a subset of Canada which Quebecois and first nations folks would have problems with being identified as THE national culture). They can have a multiple identity - the can be Muslim AND Canadian. That means that they will still feel connected to things like their cultural homeland, and the global community of their religion (which, isn't inherently destructive, unless you believe the Catholic Church is a threat).

But what happens, usually very quickly (within the first or second generation of children born in Canada) is that the Canadian part of their identity becomes the strongest part, and that they tend to identify more with the Muslim-Canadian community and less-so with the international community, even if some feelings still exist.

Oh, and by the way, if you think that "organized crime" has been effectively dealt with in Canada, you are sadly mistaken. If anything, Canada's failure to do so should make us all concerned for what's in store for Canada should the current immigration trend continue.

I never said anything about organized crime in general being dealt with, I said Italian organized crime, which while it still exists, is a shadow of what it was in the past.

Now one of the biggest threats are biker gangs, which are made up of Quebecois and Anglo-Canadians. It seems that organized crime would still exist in Canada even without immigration, and that it has more to do with legal and economic issues than immigration.

I hate to say such things because I used to have all those fuzzy feeling about Canada being a multicultural society, too.

How were those feelings formed?

[JB Globe]

The above statement is why most italians have integrated and most south asians and other asians have not and most likely will not.

Most South Asians HAVE integrated. Take a drive through Woodbridge and continue on towards Brampton. The only difference is one area has a higher concentration of South-Asian businesses and families and the other one is Italian. They're the same. So tell me why one is integrating and one isn't? You also seem to not realize that Italian immigrants came to Canada in the late 40's, and fifties, versus South Asians in the late 70's and 80's and had about a 25 year head start.

If anything South Asians have probably been the quickest to adapt, considering how long they've been here and the average per-capita income.

I personally do not appreciate Italians in general and choose not to do business with them if I don't have to. Italians... 'bug me'.

Yet another reason why not a single person here bought that story of you having that "multicultural" dinner party at your house. And why we don't buy any of your stories about "your Italian friend" and "your Indian friend" that seem ridiculous and always back up your viewpoints - because you come up with these gems then a week or two later you say things like "I hate all Italians" - which means either your stories are true and you're deceitful towards your "friends" about your feelings, in which case they're not really your friends OR - you're making the whole thing up because you are a bigot who doesn't have any actual facts or experiences to justify his views.

Survey says that almost half Canadian born children of visible minority status do NOT identify themselves as Canadian (most likely due to the racist, xenephobic policies taught by their parents).

Here we go - another survey "that was in a paper recently, I just can't remember which one or what it's called" so we'll have to take your word on it, because, after all - your word is gold, right?

I'm willing to bet good money that the survey in question was the much-criticized and flawed study where participants were given the option of checking off "Canadian" as well as other options such as "Polish or Korean" but were given NO option for checking off any boxes that said "Polish-Canadian or Asian-Canadian" - if they checked "Canadian" AND "Korean" their survey was considered invalid and not counted. Left with no choice that actually reflected their identity they did a coin-flip and half of them chose Canadian and half of them checked off another box relating to their cultural heritage.

But hey, if I'm wrong - go ahead and post the survey link.

Just how stupid, for how *long* do you think Canadians are going to be towards immigration?

So long Canadians vote political parties into office that are pro-immigration and multiculturalism, we'll continue with things as usual.

How does it feel that even your boy Harper is a huge supporter of immigration and multiculturalism?

Face it Mike, you're alone on this one. That's why you only ever hear your viewpoints on obscure corners of the internet.

[jefferiah]

unfortunately you think it's meaning is the same to me , as it is to you.

But when I said, I worship the stones or david bowie, did you think I meant it, in the same way, you worship Jesus??? '

Ok, so if you opt for it that way, it simply means your comparison is meaningless.

Good day Kuzadd.