Muslim Immigration and Integration

[Rue]

I think this is a very important story that anyone concerned about immigration issues should read. I'd like to hope this generates some discussion and support that percolates up to the powers that be. I don't know how much influence this forum actually has on these but if the owner's ability to collect and present questions to public figures is anything to go by I suspect someone must be keeping a tab or two on what we think around here. I don't know if the comparison is apt but I seem to recall reading that a letter to an editor is representative of ten thousand like-minded opinions.

Sheema Khan talks about using the example of the Hui as a model of integration for Muslims immigrating to Canada but I'd like to encourage as many practicing Hui as we can to actually immigrate here as well. I'd like to see government funding made available to facilitate this. I also see a lot of potential here for Canada to build an organization comprised of Muslim immigrants devoted to advancing women's rights throughout the Muslim world. The most important thing Canada can provide is a safe base where these can flourish and from which Muslim women and men can develop strategies that help advance this here and elsewhere.

I apreciate the idealism behind your notion and respect your idealism but I am afraid the practical reality Wild Bill talks of is pretty much my reaction-not because I disagree with your intent, but because of the concern it just may not be realistic.

I think this notion we can be all things to all people by tinkering and bringing in people that we think may agree with us to challenge other people we don't agree with is impractical.For starters the law does not favour one group over the other. Secondly it reminds me of what humans do when they meddle.

We bring in a bug to kill a bug. Problem is it over-produces and has no natural predator that eats it and instead of rectifying a problem causes another problem.

Sometimes we think we are solving a problem but all we do is create another.

The solution is dealing with all Canadians here and now not indirectly hiding behind people we bring in to try confront those people we disagree with but won't say we disagree with them.

To me its a passive aggerssive exercise of manipulation because we won't deal directly with an issue.

Seems to me if someone wants to practice ANY belief that violates criminal laws or abuses women, we don't need to import anyone. We just say its not acceptable and all agree to that. Pure and simple. That's why we have a criminal code because we don't stone people or marry 4 women. Its not racist. Its just certain standards we abide by. You don't agree with them, suffer the consequences. Some things are just not negotiable. No its not acceptable to marry more then one women. No you can't stone people.

You want to wear a wood knit cap, be my guest. You want to grow a beard without a mustache, be my guest-just don't tell me marrying 4 women is your right. Why? Because I draw a line at some things.

For example, you want to have sex with a child-then you are a criminal. Call me crazy but I believe certain things are obvious.

As well I think any man with a beard should be arrested. They are up to no good the whole lot of them. Also women with beards. I am not sexist.

[JB Globe]

Well if Toronto is going to be the model for a Canadian Utopian Socialist Muliticultural Diverse City I suggest we all go get permits to buy guns.

You do you realize that Toronto is around the Canadian average for per-capita crime, right?

Immigrants gangs are the problem not some city slicker who's native to Canada

Than why do Edmonton, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg have among the highest murder rates per-person in Canada? Not exactly major centres for immigration.

And I would suggest that "native Canadians" are part of the problem in a different matter - when such folks endorse policies that marginalize people, or behave within society in a way that marginalizes people, they contribute to the social and economic alienation of folks from different communities, and as we all know - the more alienated you are, the more subceptable you are to a host of social problems.

It's going to get much worse, at least in Toronto if a Muslim Male kills his wife over honour he can marry four more over the phone or internet or blackberry. Sniff isn't multiculture grand.

Either show me an example of this or admit you're just making things up.

[normanchateau]

Either show me an example of this or admit you're just making things up.

Do you think that this is made up?

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-kuntzel-s05.htm

Or is it best simply to ignore evidence which creates cognitive dissonance?

[guyser]

You do you realize that Toronto is around the Canadian average for per-capita crime, right?

Either show me an example of this or admit you're just making things up.

As to the first, it is even better than that. But thats the stereotype outside of the city. Always has been always will. Let em bash....for they no not the truth.

Well, you wont get the first one, and definitely not the second. Standard MO for that poster.

[JB Globe]

It isn't because they come from places with "authoritarian regimes", it's because they come from cultures which do not have a history of compromise and acceptance of difference.

Of course, you could say this of many European countries after WWII, but that didn't stop Canada from letting folks immigrate from places where there had just been fascist governments in place, and where the general population could be described as xenophobes - but did the sky fall in? Nope - people either integrated or their children did.

I think you're underestimating the human capacity to adapt to different social situations.

It isn't an "authoritarian regime" which would come down on the head of a woman who tried to walk around in Cairo or Baghdad or Damascas in shorts and halter, it's the ordinary people who would mob her and likely beat her.

I think you're exaggerating with the beating - depending on the neighbourhood the woman might get yelled at and glared at, but Cairo, Damascus & Baghdad (under Saddam) are all fairly secular and modern in the grand scheme of things.

But of course, the main point I'd like to make is that being able to dress scantily-clad is not a universal human right, it's actually a freedom which is specific to European-societies, and as such shouldn't be used to judge other societies. After all, in Cairo or Damascus women aren't forced to wear hijab, and in Baghdad that's only changed since the US invasion.

And again, this is only a problem due to the massive numbers of immigrants from third world countries, which has gotten to the point the majority of the people in Toronto are now foreign born. How does that affect politics and support for freedom? I'm betting not for the better.

I've yet to notice my or anyone else's Charter Rights being curtailed because of immigration to Toronto. Maybe you have some examples that I'm not aware of?

It isn't merely "My claim", you can find it in media all over the world, from England and France to Scandinavia to Australia,

The thing is, because Muslims are much more discriminated against, alienated, and economically disenfranchized in Europe and Australia, the social problems that affect the community are bigger as a result. That means things like violent crime are higher in youth there than youth here in Canada. In fact, whereas Muslim youth are overrepresented in violent crime in France, here in Canada they're underrepresented - And I believe it's because the Muslim community is better integrated here than in France.

It's less to do with this notion that say, Lebanese culture is more sexist than say, Indian culture, or Chinese culture. They're all pretty much the same in that regard, but we see how drastically the attitudes shift towards equality the longer the community has been in Canada - we see the difference in attitudes between the immigrant parents and the born-in-Canada-Canadian-kids.

You should stop comparing Muslim communities in Europe to here - it's a totally different ball game.

I don't know how different Toronto is, but the culture is bound to be different in that there is a vast mix of races and ethnic groups everywhere (as I said, more than half the population is foreign born). In Ottawa the population is more homogenous, and you're likely to see whites (Canadian born), a few Asians, and then Muslims (mainly Lebanese and Somalians) who are all (I have never met one born here) foreign born.

Well, you need to realize that people have been immigrating to Toronto a lot longer than they've been immigrating to Ottawa. This means that there are much, much more 1st and 2nd generation Canadians within each ethnic community, so the communities are more integrated into general society. This also means that for Anglo-Canadians, they have had more time to learn how to live with difference - most young adults have had parents who have had at least some exposure already. Multiculturalism here is already several generations old. We've already went through the growing pains and figured out solutions to problems. Whereas in Ottawa (correct me if I'm wrong) the majority of non-white immigrants began arriving in the late 80's / early 90's.

Once the communities in Ottawa have stayed longer, and they have kids which have grown up in Canada, they'll start to become more integrated - and once Anglo-Canadian kids have a chance to mix with their kids at school, they'll grow up and help influence the Anglo community to become more accepting.

Yes, well, it might well be that your Muslims are self-selected for their more liberal views. After all, how many Muslims would want a Jew hanging around them? Not many from what I've seen and read and heard.

The thing is, I only turn away folks who are confrontationally anti-semitic. If didn't hang out with people who had SOME anti-semitic views, than I would turn away nearly everyone, Muslim or Christian. Because most goi's usually have at least some anti-semitic views. And they can be obvious and aggressive, or well-intentioned and paternal.

Besides all the hype, I haven't found Muslims to be any more anti-semitic in general than any other group - and I know that will cause many white goiyims to throw up their arms in shock, because of course "how can I be anti-semitic!? I love the Jews!" but it's the truth. The thing is, most people confuse anti-semitism from Muslims with them just being anti-zionist, and the two aren't automatically connected. You can be both, or one or the other.

[M.Dancer]

You do you realize that Toronto is around the Canadian average for per-capita crime, right?

Than why do Edmonton, Saskatoon, and Winnipeg have among the highest murder rates per-person in Canada? Not exactly major centres for immigration.

All crime per capita CANADA

8,512.58

All crime percapita ONTARIO

6,336.74

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/crime/stats.html

[JB Globe]

You might also want to study this article published in Jewish Political Studies Review 17:1-2 (2005):

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-kuntzel-s05.htm

To the best of my knowledge, these 2003-2006 cartoons reminiscent of Nazi cartoons of the 1933-1945 era, were not created by Christians or Jews:

http://somebodyhelpme.info/cartoons/anti-S...ti-Semitic.html

I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement that I've grown up as a Jew around Muslims my whole life.

Do you think that I haven't been aware for years that some Muslims, just like some white goi's are anti-semetic?

Shall I post anti-semitic cartoons made by white Christians as well? Because I'm assuming that most people here know that Muslims don't have a monopoly on anti-semitism.

[Leafless]

All crime per capita CANADA

8,512.58

All crime percapita ONTARIO

6,336.74

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/crime/stats.html

To bad Canada is so backward when it comes to releasing crime and race statistics like most other civilized countries.

Relating to the U.S.:

Blacks are just 13 percent of the [u.S.] population (*) but they commit more than half [52%] the muggings and murders in the country. Hispanics commit violent crimes at about three times the white rate.

http://elliotlakenews.wordpress.com/2007/01/07/crime-race/

[normanchateau]

Shall I post anti-semitic cartoons made by white Christians as well? Because I'm assuming that most people here know that Muslims don't have a monopoly on anti-semitism.

Muslims don't have a monopoly on anti-Semitism and they certainly didn't in the 20th century but I can't think of any other group who has produced more anti-Semitic cartoons in the 21st century. Show me recent evidence to prove I'm wrong. I provided cartoons published very recently in major outlets. Sure, you can perhaps find some white Christian anti-Semitic cartoons today but they're likely on some Nazi blog not read by more than a handful of mouthbreathers. The cartoons I provided appeared in mainstream sources in the Middle East.

Edited March 25, 2008 by normanchateau

[Rue]

Keng states: "All of the Muslims that I've talked to have at some point either tried to convert me and/or gone on about the Jews and how they control the media. All of them."

Sounds like you have the exact same things in common as the people you have claim you met.What was your point?

Edited March 27, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

I could say the following stupid thing which is true; my next door neighbour is a Muslim (from Pakistan) and he's a very nice, gentle, good man. Completely true. But that is as relevant as me saying it in reverse, i.e., I met a Muslim and he was rude and ignorant.

Some posters particularly Keng, in each and every post on this forum use that device as the basis for their opinions. They tell us they spoke with a...(fill in the name of the alleged group member) and therefore ALL people in that group are bad.

Keng does it continuously but others also do it and its just dumb. Basing our opinions on the subjective encounters we have with certain members of a group to then assign a generalization to the entire group and assume its accurate, is fallacious. (that sounds sexual, I mean illogical!)

That's the problem with these discussions. They all come down to our subjective encounters with the people of the group we encounter.

o.k. I have met some incredibly nice Muslims and some incredibly stupid or ignorant ones. I can say the same for my group (grumpy but sometimes witty and never smelly Jewish men) or any other group, i.e., other Jews, Christians, gays, Maple Leafs fans, curlers, sewer workers, on and on.

Its not a basis that provides a rational, logical and therefore accurate meaningful basis to conclude things.

When its discussed he way Argus has, he uses specifics andnever once says he believes all Muslims think the entire same way and makes it clear he is discussing cultural traits that MAY cause us to see certain behaviours.

Is that unfair. No I am not saying we can't do that. I am just saying while we can explain certain political and cultural experiences may shape how people are likely to act and can explain things we see, they are just that, potential or possible explanations.

We all use cognitive processing that labels things with generalities to make what we see and experience easier to understand. Its human nature. All I am saying is for me personally, while I appreciate people from certain cultures and political experiences are more likely to possess certain opinions or exhibit certain behaviours, I try not to let it cloud my free choice and that is when I meet an individual for the first time, to try find something in common and not use such knowledge to assume difference and therefore rationalize the worst.

O.k. so I am a pollyanna that way, fine. But I think that is the point of some posters-they are just trying to argue these generalities may not always be accurate nor should they be used to justify intolerance.

Then on the other hand, what Angus or others in his line of reasoning have said, is we have to be realistic, and no some guy who comes from a country and brings his intolerance and fundamentalism to Canada, isn't going to magically become a Canadian and be tolerant-just not going to happen.

We see classic cultural clashes now transpiring as people from certain cultures collide with the culture values we assume as givens in Canada and its why some people ask-is it realistic to just think we can bring anyone to Canada and think they will not experience difficulties accepting our values?

It has been my subjective experience that I have never met a Muslim, not even my nice neighbour, who differentiate Zionism from Judaism. I do not buy this bullshit arguement for one second they aren't justa nti-semitic, just anti-Zionist. That is bullshit. Absolute bullshit. All you have to do is listen to see the concepts fuse in the words.

What I am saying is, I do not let such negative experiences cloud my hating Muslims or not trying to talk with them and challenge them on things I think they need to be challenged on, just as I do not mind them debating me in return. The key is mutual respect. That is all I am saying.

I am not going to go around hating Muslims or anyone else. I save that for Keng and these days Hilary Clinton and Jim Flaherty. (that was a joke! I love you all hugs kisses shalom my brothers and sisters)

[normanchateau]

It has been my subjective experience that I have never met a Muslim, not even my nice neighbour, who differentiate Zionism from Judaism. I do not buy this bullshit arguement for one second they aren't justa nti-semitic, just anti-Zionist. That is bullshit. Absolute bullshit. All you have to do is listen to see the concepts fuse in the words.

In other words, you acknowledge that Muslims are more likely to be anti-Semitic than other religious groups. Right?

[Argus]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my statement that I've grown up as a Jew around Muslims my whole life.

Do you think that I haven't been aware for years that some Muslims, just like some white goi's are anti-semetic?

Shall I post anti-semitic cartoons made by white Christians as well? Because I'm assuming that most people here know that Muslims don't have a monopoly on anti-semitism.

This is the kind of nonsense I really dislike. You are attempting to suggest that anti-antisemitism among Muslims is no different and no greater than among Christians here in Canada and that's utterly ludicrous. It's the same sort of statement as that written below.

"Sure, there is some antisemitism among Nazis, but hey, I've run into lots of antisemitism among communists and democrats too. Would you like me to post some of the nasty antisemitism which has come from non-Nazis?"

And no, I'm not suggesting Muslims = Nazis, or even that all Muslims hate Jews. Although I doubt all members of the Nazi party were all that fixated on Jews either. But it is the same sort of statement.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

Of course, you could say this of many European countries after WWII, but that didn't stop Canada from letting folks immigrate from places where there had just been fascist governments in place, and where the general population could be described as xenophobes - but did the sky fall in? Nope - people either integrated or their children did.

I think you're underestimating the human capacity to adapt to different social situations.

Again we have this inference that because Europeans adapted to our (let's face it, mostly European) culture then Muslims will too. But we have no such evidence. We know that deeply religious groups can stay separate from the mainstream, as in the Amish or Mennonites, for example, for generations. One study in Scandinavia found that even after three generations the great majority of Turkish families were still sending "home" for a mate for their children in order to retain their cultural value set.

In fact, whereas Muslim youth are overrepresented in violent crime in France, here in Canada they're underrepresented - And I believe it's because the Muslim community is better integrated here than in France.

And you know this because.... you see, we don't keep crime statistics based on race or religion here. So you're making that up. All we have are our own experiences, what we read in the papers, and what we hear from our friends. And I would suggest that Muslims ARE overrpresented in crime, at least insofar as I keep seeing Muslim sounding names in my paper being arrested. One small datum slipped through the media last year (the media does not like to refer to races of criminals either) during an Ottawa Citizen article on a Somali youth organization, the writer pointed out how important such an organization was given that more than half of all juveniles incarcerated in the Ottawa area were Somalians.

Not what I would call "underrepresented". And that didn't even take into account Lebanese or other Muslims.

The thing is, most people confuse anti-semitism from Muslims with them just being anti-zionist, and the two aren't automatically connected. You can be both, or one or the other.

On an intellectual level they are not the same. Realistically, especially given the political sophistication of most Muslims, being anti-Zionist means being anti-Jew.

[JB Globe]

Sure, you can perhaps find some white Christian anti-Semitic cartoons today but they're likely on some Nazi blog not read by more than a handful of mouthbreathers.

This is because that, in the eyes of most Christian goi's we Jews have gone from being devils to angels in the course of this century. There's many reasons for this - constant efforts to fight the ignorance of Judaism, the economic, artistic and social successes of the Jewish community in Europe & North America, and yes - even Holocaust guilt helped, it became hard for goi's to continue to be hateful towards a group of people who were targeted with extinction, especially when their governments didn't do nearly enough to help (see: turning away boats of Jewish refugees from Poland). The creation of Israel helped as well - evangelicals got giddy because having Jews in charge of the holy land is another step closer to ushering in the Rapture, and others got a "champion of the West and democracy" that was fighting the scourge of the "evil Arab Muslim horde" Israelis became the sheriffs at the edge of the Euro-American frontier.

That, and the xenophobes in society have a much more "other" other to project all their fears and insecurities onto in this century. I also have no doubt in my mind that if us chosen peoples were oppressing a few million Christians for a few decades, all of the goodwill towards Jews that white, Christian goi's feel would evaporate rather quickly.

Having been exposed to Muslims from all over the place early on in life, and having studied anti-semitism in the Muslim world, I've come to know that most of the anti-semitism and the extremity of it has everything to do with Israel. Muslims who are anti-semetic come to be so in the same way that certain people come to be Islamophobic - they don't have any real relationships with anyone who's Jewish, so their information about Jews comes in the form of 24/7 news bulletins about the latest Israeli airstrike that killed 5 kids.

So, all of the information they get is "bad" or rather - framed in the context of an ongoing violent conflict. Being a Jew in the minds of folks growing up in say, the Arab world is synonymous with being a zionist, and thus an oppressor of Arabs. Much like in the minds of white Canadians who self-segregate themselves or live in monocultural small towns Muslims are synonymous with terrorism.

That doesn't EXCUSE their anti-semitism, just like Islamophoboes aren't excused, but it explains it a hell of a lot better than the old "Muslim hate Jews because Muslims are evil" explanation. Although individual choices are still a factor - when it comes to racism one's environment has a hell of a lot more to do with influencing opinion.

And that's exactly why that here in Canada, I can go to Muslim weddings and mosques as a Jew and vice-versa - if I did so in Saudi Arabia, it wouldn't be such a pretty picture.