Muslim Immigration and Integration

[JB Globe]

Are you attempting to refute the statement or simply playing greek philosophical games?

I'm trying to figure out how much and in what form your personal contact with the Muslim Canadian community has taken.

[JB Globe]

Yeah, in fact, they do.[have to adopt "traditional Canadian Culture"]

Translation - Anglo-Canadian Culture.

And please, show me which law states that immigrants have to adopt this culture? Because if it's just you saying they have to, than who really cares? You're not the law, and your viewpoints aren't shared by any Canadian political party, so what does it matter?

Your value system has to fit somewhere along the scale of values which encompasses Canadian beliefs.

And for people who are 1st or 2nd generation Canadians, this is the norm. Of course, "Canadian values" is a different ballgame from "Traditional Canadian Culture" Belief in the rule of law is mandatory, but liking hockey isn't. For example, me liking basketball more than hockey doesn't make me any less Canadian than anyone else. However, someone who despises people of different cultures is certainly less Canadian than I am.

If you retain the wierd, usually backward beliefs of your "old" culture then you're not truly Canadian

And what would those be exactly?

And I don't care if you were born here and raised here. If you believe women have to wear a chador you are not a Canadian.

I'll give you that. But at the same time, if you believe that any woman who does wear a chador, or hijab is oppressed even if she made the choice herself because she WANTS to, than you're not Canadian either, because you're not respecting individual expression and choice.

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

You just couldn't keep it in, could you? One more sentence to go and you let it blurt out.

Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you. This, combined with the fact that you aren't honest with yourself about what you know and don't know about people who are different from you, is the reason your opinions are what they are.

[JB Globe]

Yeah, in fact, they do.[have to adopt "traditional Canadian Culture"]

Translation - Anglo-Canadian Culture.

And please, show me which law states that immigrants have to adopt this culture? Because if it's just you saying they have to, than who really cares? You're not the law, and your viewpoints aren't shared by any Canadian political party, so what does it matter?

Your value system has to fit somewhere along the scale of values which encompasses Canadian beliefs.

And for people who are 1st or 2nd generation Canadians, this is the norm. Of course, "Canadian values" is a different ballgame from "Traditional Canadian Culture" Belief in the rule of law is mandatory, but liking hockey isn't. For example, me liking basketball more than hockey doesn't make me any less Canadian than anyone else. However, someone who despises people of different cultures is certainly less Canadian than I am.

If you retain the wierd, usually backward beliefs of your "old" culture then you're not truly Canadian

And what would those be exactly?

And I don't care if you were born here and raised here. If you believe women have to wear a chador you are not a Canadian.

I'll give you that. But at the same time, if you believe that any woman who does wear a chador, or hijab is oppressed even if she made the choice herself because she WANTS to, than you're not Canadian either, because you're not respecting individual expression and choice.

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

You just couldn't keep it in, could you? One more sentence to go and you let it blurt out.

Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you. This, combined with the fact that you aren't honest with yourself about what you know and don't know about people who are different from you, is the reason your opinions are what they are.

[JB Globe]

There are plenty of secular Jews and Christians.

Of course, there are plenty of Rabbis and Reverends who claim that there is no such thing as a secular Christian or Jew.

Does that mean that when I say I'm a secular Jew, that I'm wrong? Or do I, and the millions of secular Jews and Muslims have just as much a right to interpret scripture as orthodox Jews and Muslims?

[JB Globe]

There are plenty of secular Jews and Christians.

Of course, there are plenty of Rabbis and Reverends who claim that there is no such thing as a secular Christian or Jew.

Does that mean that when I say I'm a secular Jew, that I'm wrong? Or do I, and the millions of secular Jews and Muslims have just as much a right to interpret scripture as orthodox Jews and Muslims?

[JB Globe]

You know, if you go to Home Depot they have about fifty four different shades of every colour of paint, but when you boil it all down it's still the same colour.

So what you're saying is, that you believe there is no such thing as cultural difference between people who happen to be Muslim, no matter if they are from Senegal, Brunei, Lebanon or Guyana?

And for the record, belief isn't the same thing as fact . . .

[guyser]

I I think think you you have have a a double double posting posting problem problem.

[JB Globe]

getting back to racism - we have a system in Toronto where we the old white guys are taught and conditioned to fear poor and tough looking black guys...it's almost a system enduction of fear..

True, but that same system you talk about hurts the black community more. After all, you tend to not have compassion towards those you fear, and that might be why Torontonians don't seem to care too much when black men get gunned down on a regular basis. It also means people are less likely to care about problems faced by the black community. It also makes it harder for black men to get along in social situations when other people's first reaction is fear.

[kuzadd]

I was using your words, Kuzadd. You said most.

And yes I would say you are specifically linking me here:

"Hence we see Argus, Jefferiah, and other fundamentalist type "christians" espousing hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views."--Kuzadd

Unless of course you mean some other Jefferiah. With that last statement I am making a guess at your next contortion feat.

pick your hat and wear it Jefferiah, I'd say you promote half-truths and stereotypes, as facts.

I leave the hateful statements to Argus, since as of yet I haven't seen you lower yourself to that.

[kuzadd]

Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you. This, combined with the fact that you aren't honest with yourself about what you know and don't know about people who are different from you, is the reason your opinions are what they are.

little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you.

touche!!!!

[JB Globe]

Actually thats wrong. The roots of the Mafia lie in Sicily, they had nothing to do with America until later in their existence.

And what were the motivating factors in Sicily? I'm sure you're aware of the discrimination from northern Italians towards southerners, which I would call racism, because there is a physical difference between the two groups. The south has always been under-invested in by the government (many Sicilians/Calabrians feel the 2006 cancellation of the Messina Strait Bridge is reflective of this) and southerners have always faced job discrimination in the north. The Sicilian mob is deeply rooted in this dynamic - the struggle between the mob and the police actually takes on the tone of this conflict because most of the Guardia di Finanza (somewhat like the FBI) is made up of officers from the north, and the mob is of course Sicilian.

To tie this back to Canada, both the Italian mafia and Islamic extremism are examples of problems within communities which are exacerbated and entrenched greatly by institutional and social discrimination.

Really, the worst thing you could do if you wanted to combat Islamic extremism would be to attack the Muslim community in general, it would only entrench those already in the extremist camp, push fence-sitters towards them and make it more difficult for the moderates and liberals to work against the extremists because then the extremists could say "they're race-traitors, they're working with those who hate us and want to kick us out"

A much better solution is to work with the community and remove barriers to them in society and in institutions, the same way the FBI removed bigoted officers so that Italian officers felt welcome in the FBI and could use their cultural expertise to go after the mob.

[kuzadd]

'JB Globe'

discrimination from northern Italians towards southerners, which I would call racism,

my father is a southern Italian, Calabrese.

southerners have always faced job discrimination in the north.

which is why so many of the southern Italians immigrated, as opposed to the Northerns.

and the mob is of course Sicilian.

Originally but it defintely spread to southern Italian.

based on what my dad told me.

After ww2, things only got worse in that department.

To tie this back to Canada, both the Italian mafia and Islamic extremism are examples of problems within communities which are exacerbated and entrenched greatly by institutional and social discrimination.

I could not agree more!

Really, the worst thing you could do if you wanted to combat Islamic extremism would be to attack the Muslim community in general, it would only entrench those already in the extremist camp, push fence-sitters towards them and make it more difficult for the moderates and liberals to work against the extremists because then the extremists could say "they're race-traitors, they're working with those who hate us and want to kick us out"

OMG, some rational thinking as opposed to kill them all!

Edited March 14, 2008 by kuzadd

[AngusThermopyle]

And what were the motivating factors in Sicily? I'm sure you're aware of the discrimination from northern Italians towards southerners, which I would call racism, because there is a physical difference between the two groups. The south has always been under-invested in by the government (many Sicilians/Calabrians feel the 2006 cancellation of the Messina Strait Bridge is reflective of this) and southerners have always faced job discrimination in the north. The Sicilian mob is deeply rooted in this dynamic - the struggle between the mob and the police actually takes on the tone of this conflict because most of the Guardia di Finanza (somewhat like the FBI) is made up of officers from the north, and the mob is of course Sicilian.

Not going to dispute this, its basically what I would say, with a few additions, to describe the situation.

What does it have to do with the American Dream?

I find recorded history far more reliable than "Mob" movies myself.

[Argus]

What about the 200 or so muslims in our Canadian army? Are they not fighting for you Argus?

I don't know that any of them are fighting at all. Are any of them in Afghanistan? Have any been sent there? The US has court martialed a few Muslims in their military for treason and aiding terrorism, and discharged others for refusing to fight. How do you know there are 200 Muslims in the Canadian military, and how do you know they're not working as clerks in Ottawa?

[Argus]

Argus, I had no idea you were a fashion maven!

But seriously, what is the big deal about people wearing what makes them comfortable? Turbans, saris, kilts, buckskins, hajibs... so what? No dress code for Canada, please! (And more men in kilts can only be a good thing.)

It's not the clothing, it's the symbolism. Wearing those "foreign" items on a continuous basis is doing several things, but primarily it's defining yourself as an outsider, demonstrating that you consider this other culture superior to that in Canada, and that you are determined to cling to it.

You know, no one has ever responded to my earlier statement. Given that the Amish have retained their culture for generations here, living apart from the rest of us, clinging to their old ways, why does everyone assume Muslims will convert within a generation or so, to the kind of secular, laid-back cultural belief system most Canadians share?

Italians, Poles, Germans, Ukrainians - they didn't have to abandon anything from their religion in order to join the Canadian mainstream. But Islam governs everything about ones life, including government, law, and behaviour. In order to join the mainstream Muslims have to abandon their belief in a lot of that. Why are people so sure they will?

[Argus]

Hey Mike,

Question: Can a Muslim man marry your daughter?

Would you be happy at your daughter marrying a member of the KKK?

Probably not. You'd hate a guy with that kind of a hateful cultural belief system. And you'd fear for your daughter. Well, Muslims have a hateful belief system too when it comes to women. I'd definitely fear for my daughter if she married one of them.

[Argus]

I'm trying to figure out how much and in what form your personal contact with the Muslim Canadian community has taken.

I lived for more than a decade in an area with the highest concentration of Muslims in Canada. I would say that my particular neighbourhood was probably something like 75% Muslim. I've also worked with a number of Muslims. In a broader context, I happen to have a lot of young female friends, and there isn't one of them who doesn't roll her eyes about Muslims, and how arrogant, crude and obnoxious Muslim men are in clubs and bars. I have yet to meet a young, attractive woman who hasn't had bad experiences, even violent ones, with Muslim men in bars and clubs. Many have dated Muslim men in the past, but to a woman would not do so again.

[Argus]

Translation - Anglo-Canadian Culture.

You mean the culture of Canadians who speak English, even though their ancestry might be Polish, Irish, Ukrainian, Dutch, German, Swedish or Italian? Yeah.

And please, show me which law states that immigrants have to adopt this culture?

It's the law of human behaviour. It's the one that says in schools those who are different will be picked on and ostracized, and that humans generally prefer to associate with those who are like them.

However, someone who despises people of different cultures is certainly less Canadian than I am.

Despises? I judge most other cultures inferior to ours. I particularly judge most of what I've seen and read of Muslim culture to be backward, ignorant and often the antithesis of what I believe is just and proper.

If you've taught yourself that all cultures and behaviours are equal that is simply the absence of a moral compass.

I'll give you that. But at the same time, if you believe that any woman who does wear a chador, or hijab is oppressed even if she made the choice herself because she WANTS to, than you're not Canadian either, because you're not respecting individual expression and choice.

Where did you get the idea that respecting individual expressions and choice was mandatory - no matter how stupid those choices and expressions are? Because I have to tell you Canada has a long history of dissuading stupid choices and expressions.

Oppressed? No, I don't think such a woman is necessarily oppressed. I think she's stupid, though, and maybe brainwashed. Same as those idiot women in BC involved with Mormon polygamists.

Argus, the only reason you find these things weird is because you don't consider them normal, and that comes from the fact that you've had little or no experience living and having RELATIONSHIPS with people who are different from you.

Don't know a lot of KKK types or cannibals either. Don't need to. Don't want to.

[Argus]

I leave the hateful statements to Argus, since as of yet I haven't seen you lower yourself to that.

And I'll leave the intelligent statements to Jefferiah, since as yet I haven't seen any sign you're capable of making one.

[jazzer]

I don't know that any of them are fighting at all. Are any of them in Afghanistan? Have any been sent there? The US has court martialed a few Muslims in their military for treason and aiding terrorism, and discharged others for refusing to fight. How do you know there are 200 Muslims in the Canadian military, and how do you know they're not working as clerks in Ottawa?

Is is not enough these folks to willing join our armed forces? What the hell do you want besides your bigotry? You'd better get used to having the forces diversified as this article talks about: link

And here's another one you can choke on:

link

[AngusThermopyle]

Hmmm, didn't see anything about 200 Muslims in the article you linked to, saw a figure of approximately 1%, nothing about 200 though. Why did you provide a link to a post that you had just quoted? Am I missing something here?

[kuzadd]

I lived for more than a decade in an area with the highest concentration of Muslims in Canada. I would say that my particular neighbourhood was probably something like 75% Muslim. I've also worked with a number of Muslims. In a broader context, I happen to have a lot of young female friends, and there isn't one of them who doesn't roll her eyes about Muslims, and how arrogant, crude and obnoxious Muslim men are in clubs and bars. I have yet to meet a young, attractive woman who hasn't had bad experiences, even violent ones, with Muslim men in bars and clubs. Many have dated Muslim men in the past, but to a woman would not do so again.

' crude and obnoxious Muslim men are in clubs and bars.'

in clubs and bars eh??

so these are cleary NOT devout followers of Islam Argus????

As opposed to crude and obnoxious (fill in the blank) men in bars and clubs????

cause when I was a younger gal,lol, the men were crude and obnoxious , but they weren't muslim!

[kuzadd]

And I'll leave the intelligent statements to Jefferiah, since as yet I haven't seen any sign you're capable of making one.

or perhaps you are simply incapable of comprehending anything outside of your narrow xenophobic views????

xenophobic

adjective

suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign

xen·o·phobe

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

[DogOnPorch]

or perhaps you are simply incapable of comprehending anything outside of your narrow xenophobic views????

xenophobic

adjective

suffering from xenophobia; having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign

xen·o·phobe

n. A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

It's interesting how the works/travels of Xenophon ended up being given that defination in modern times. Xenophon of course led the March of the 10,000 Greek mercenaries out of Persia after winning the battle of Cunuxa but having their Persian boss, Cyrus, killed in battle. They found themselves in VERY hostile territory and a long way from Greece. A great book...(Anabasis:March Up Country:March of the 10,000).

As you'll find if you read the book, Xenophon's fears were anything but abnormal.

-----------------------------------------------

Excess of grief for the dead is madness; for it is an injury to the living, and the dead know it not.

---Xenophon

[Argus]

Hmmm, didn't see anything about 200 Muslims in the article you linked to, saw a figure of approximately 1%, nothing about 200 though. Why did you provide a link to a post that you had just quoted? Am I missing something here?

I was confused about that, as well. As for the "from predominantly Muslim countries" part, that does not necessarily mean they are Muslims.

And as far as joining the military - that has been seen by some for many years - prior to Afghanistan - as a secure, well-paid government position which allows you to travel and accomplish something - sort of like an international peace corps kind of thing.

Mind you, it's mainly seen, by the chair bound, as a bureaucracy where you simply wear the same outfit every day. There are many lifers in Ottawa who would quit rather than ever accept a transfer to a combat unit, or out of the country.