Muslim Immigration and Integration

[AngusThermopyle]

You do realize that, most Muslim-Canadians don't want Sharia law in Canada, right?

You do realize that the squeaky wheel gets the grease, right. Usually its never the majority that want these things, but as we can see from the absurd proposal fielded by Mcguinty (sp?) a few years ago that doesn't matter too much. I don't believe I've ever said the majority are representative of "the Muslim problem", I've always maintained that the problem lies with the extremist/radical element. Thats not to say that I don't see major problems with the faith itself, I do. On the other hand there are problems associated with other faiths as well, just not to the same degree it would appear.

I forget where the article on rapes was, I'll try to find it again, it supplied stats, shocking actually. It did not say per capita, I know you wish it had but it didn't. It showed a breakdown of the populace and yes, unfortunately it was a very one sided and damning number. Obviously we don't have the same problem as Europe, is that to say however that it would be unwise to learn from our European breatheren and just not go there?

Personally when we moved here from England our attitude was that this was going to be our new country and we damn well better fit in. We didn't ask for any special considerations because we came from a culture that differed from Canada's. Neither did we expect Canadians to stop supporting allies and friends of Canada because we didn't like them. Today however we see protests from various groups because they don't agree with our Nations policies regarding other countries.

I do realize that your most fervent wish would be for Canadians to be the Johnny Do Gooders of the world and bend for others until you break. Keep in mind though that although most Canadians are friendly and try to be welcoming, there are limits. This rush to give everything away will only be tolerated to a certain point before a backlash will develop. If you don't think this is true then just observe the whole fallacious concept of Multi-Cult for a prime example. It used to be that people sang its praises for all to hear. Today if you discuss it you will find that most are against it and the public criticism of it grows daily. Rightly so.

[Argus]

Really? And where would this be? because personally I'm not aware of any federal riding that has anything more than say 15% Muslim population.

I did not say the entire riding was 75%, just my few blocks of it. It is the riding of Ottawa-South.

I wasn't asking about people you said hi and bye to, I was asking if you've had any meaningful relationships with anyone who is Muslim - I was asking if you know anyone whom you discuss these things with on a regular basis

.

It was considerably more than high and bye. We had a lot of political and social discussions, and even though they were clearly toning things down I could see that we were far from eye to eye on most things. One of the universals I found, btw, was that all of them were very firm in their belief in freedom of speech - as a concept. However, they were extremely hostile to the idea of people being allowed to say and write things they didn't like. They liked the idea of freedom for themselves, and didn't quite understand why it should apply to people who had opinions they considered to be "dangerous". "They should not be allowed to say that" was something I heard many times.

Argus, this is what I mean about people not being honest with themselves about where their viewpoints come from. OF COURSE Muslim men in bars and clubs are obnoxious, crude and ignorant - do you know why? Because MOST MEN IN GENERAL that go to clubs and bars are obnoxious crude and ignorant.

Perhaps, but even by that yardstick Muslim men stood head and shoulders above the rest in their level of aggressive demand for sex and contempt for women who wouldn't supply it.

The only difference of course is that with say, white men, these women and yourself have plenty of personal relationships and other opportunities to interact with white men outside of a toxic environmen

I believe I pointed out that many had had actual relationships with Arab men, but never would again.

Edited March 19, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

You do realize that, most Muslim-Canadians don't want Sharia law in Canada, right?

I am sure this is correct. But I am also sure that a very substantial minority does want Sharia law. In the UK a survey put it at 40%. I don't believe the question has been asked here. But in Muslim countries, the percentage is always well over 50%.

You realize that for many that was a motivating factor that got them to leave their ancestral homeland in the first place?

I have never heard anyone even suggest that the highly religious nature of the culture in their homeland was a factor in wanting to leave. Quite the contrary. Most still seem highly attached to their homeland's culture. They came here for a better lifestyle - more money - bigger house, etc.

Are you talking about Muslim males committing the majority of the total number of rapes? You sure that might not be a per-capita statistic? Link?

Of course, we all know, (and "we" includes Harper, who said this much in a recent speech) that the situation in Canada is much, much different from the situation in Europe. Meaning, that I don't think this stat applies here.

In some places I have read it suggested they are responsible for the majority of rapes, despite their comparatively small numbers.

[DogOnPorch]

Argus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Bellil

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Sorry seems to be the hardest word...

---Elton John

[Argus]

Argus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samira_Bellil

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Sorry seems to be the hardest word...

---Elton John

What's your point? That Muslims treat women like shit?

[kengs333]

The Muslim community is not comparable to the KKK, sorry to break it to you.

Have you ever talked to anyone who's Muslim? I have on a number of occasions. Stop acting like they're sweet, innocent, altruistic and tolerant people. They aren't.

[DogOnPorch]

What's your point? That Muslims treat women like shit?

Weren't you asked for some sort of confirmation that rape is a problem in the Muslim community?

Samira Bellil was a Muslim girl from Algeria who wanted to live her life like a modern French woman. For her troubles she was gang-raped twice by the males of her own community of St-Denis (near Paris). The second time she was pulled from a public bus by her attackers while her own community members averted their gaze.

Samira was beaten and ostricized by her family for bringing shame upon them by being raped and then daring to speak-out about it. She learned that she was one of many Muslim and non-Muslim women in the area that were the victims of gang-rape (tournante) for daring to appear Western. It turned her to activism for the rights of Muslim women in France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni_putes_ni_soumises (The movement she championed trans: neither whores nor submissives)

She's dead...died of cancer at a very young age, unfortunately.

-----------------------------------------------

People outside the community don't know, and everyone in the community knows, but they won't say anything.

---Samira Bellil

[M.Dancer]

Have you ever talked to anyone who's Muslim? I have on a number of occasions. Stop acting like they're sweet, innocent, altruistic and tolerant people. They aren't.

Like attracts like.

The director of the daycare in the Anglican church my daughter went to is Muslim from Pakistan. Her husband is muslim and is a cardiologist at Mt Sinai.

Both are caring loving people who contributions to Canada go beyond the average.

[guyser]

Have you ever talked to anyone who's Muslim? I have on a number of occasions. Stop acting like they're sweet, innocent, altruistic and tolerant people. They aren't.

Strange. I found them to be much like christians, at least open minded christians...ahem.....

[Argus]

Like attracts like.

The director of the daycare in the Anglican church my daughter went to is Muslim from Pakistan. Her husband is muslim and is a cardiologist at Mt Sinai.

Both are caring loving people who contributions to Canada go beyond the average.

Why am I not surprised that the director of daycare at an Anglican Church would be a Muslim?

[kengs333]

Like attracts like.

The director of the daycare in the Anglican church my daughter went to is Muslim from Pakistan. Her husband is muslim and is a cardiologist at Mt Sinai.

Both are caring loving people who contributions to Canada go beyond the average.

I neither know the circumstance behind how she assumed this position, nor am I going to simply take your assessment of their character at face value. Before 200, the same probably could have been said for Michael Seifert.

Something tells me that you haven't talked to many Muslims. All of the Muslims that I've talked to have at some point either tried to convert me and/or gone on about the Jews and how they control the media. All of them.

[Argus]

I neither know the circumstance behind how she assumed this position, nor am I going to simply take your assessment of their character at face value. Before 200, the same probably could have been said for Michael Seifert.

Something tells me that you haven't talked to many Muslims. All of the Muslims that I've talked to have at some point either tried to convert me and/or gone on about the Jews and how they control the media. All of them.

Ditto. They really don't like Jews at all

[JB Globe]

I did not say the entire riding was 75%, just my few blocks of it. It is the riding of Ottawa-South.

I've probably driven through that area, and might have even stopped in to pick up some Lebanese pies, do you know Aladin's? - I always drop $20 on Zatar there before driving back to Toronto. My girlfriend grew up near Pinecrest/Bayshore. I can't be sure completely though, because most of Ottawa is as non-descript as Scarborough - I can't tell the neighbourhoods apart that much.

They liked the idea of freedom for themselves, and didn't quite understand why it should apply to people who had opinions they considered to be "dangerous". "They should not be allowed to say that" was something I heard many times.

Thing is, hypocrites like this can be found in any camp. There are liberals who would like to ban any language that might put be considered racist, conservatives who would like to ban any sort of criticism during a time of conflict, etc. In fact, I've noticed that most people in general are a little hypocritical when it comes to politics.

Perhaps, but even by that yardstick Muslim men stood head and shoulders above the rest in their level of aggressive demand for sex and contempt for women who wouldn't supply it.

I believe I pointed out that many had had actual relationships with Arab men, but never would again.

Maybe Muslim men in Ottawa are vastly different from those in Toronto I guess, because I've never known that to be the case and I've known Muslim men and women throughout my life. I only know a few Muslim folks from Ottawa, but out of those that I know I only know one guy who I'd call a dirtbag - and the ratio doesn't seem any worse than in general.

It could be the environment however - when you live in a racially charged environment that is tense interaction between cultures especially between men and women are more extreme. Folks tend to act out their anger sexually as well as in other ways. This goes both ways - I know Muslim women who when white guys at the bar find out they're Muslim start asking things like "so do you know any terrorist cells" or "Is your dad going to come and kill us both if he sees us together" or "is that like, a terrorist name?" - it's pretty obvious these guys have no intention of getting these girl's numbers, and they're just saying this to act out their bigoted ideas.

Those guys in the clubs could be bigots as well - they might have a stereotype in their head that white girls are easy/worthless because of it and that's why they're treating them like crap. Might have a "I hate you so much I want to do you" thing going on. It's messed up, but it happens from time to time.

[JB Globe]

I do realize that your most fervent wish would be for Canadians to be the Johnny Do Gooders of the world and bend for others until you break.

No, because that's not integration. What you're talking about is capitulation, and I have never said I support that.

This rush to give everything away will only be tolerated to a certain point before a backlash will develop.

What do you mean by "giving it all away?" - do you have any examples of this?

[JB Globe]

Have you ever talked to anyone who's Muslim? I have on a number of occasions. Stop acting like they're sweet, innocent, altruistic and tolerant people. They aren't.

I've grown up my whole life with Muslims as my best friends. I'm considered part of the extended family of one family and now have people in my extended family who are Muslim. I've studied Islam, I've been to mosque - all this while not hiding the fact that I'm Jewish.

You speak to Muslims "on occasions" - I exchange knowledge with Muslims every other day.

You don't want to play this game with me - we both know you don't really have any real-world knowledge about this subject - so do what any wise person would do and LISTEN if you don't have the proper knowledge to speak, or - ask a question. Otherwise you're only making judgments out of ignorance.

[Argus]

Thing is, hypocrites like this can be found in any camp.

Well actually I'm not so much talking about hypocrisy as ignorance. And I'm not attributing it specifically to Muslim immigrants but simply third world immigrants. THey have a very poor understanding of various concepts like freedom of speech, the press and religion.

Maybe Muslim men in Ottawa are vastly different from those in Toronto I guess, because I've never known that to be the case and I've known Muslim men and women throughout my life

And are you a young attractive woman? Because unless so, or unless you ask young women about their experiences in clubs, you really don't have any knowledge of how Muslim men act around them. And even if you're with Muslim men, no offense, but I highly doubt any of them are going to start referring to White women as whores around you.

Those guys in the clubs could be bigots as well - they might have a stereotype in their head that white girls are easy/worthless because of it and that's why they're treating them like crap.

Yes, that seems to be a common theme among Muslim men, here and elsewhere.

[JB Globe]

Well actually I'm not so much talking about hypocrisy as ignorance. And I'm not attributing it specifically to Muslim immigrants but simply third world immigrants. THey have a very poor understanding of various concepts like freedom of speech, the press and religion.

I don't think that's accurate. For sure, some immigrants aren't familiar with the values embodied in our Charter simply because they came from countries ruled by authoritarian regimes - that isn't exactly their fault. And usually, you can see a rapid progression in how these communities deal with things like Charter Rights if you look at the views of the parents who immigrated, and their Canadian kids - it really is like night and day in most cases - from partial integration to practically full integration within a generation - two at most.

For others from countries with a democratic tradition, it may be that freedom of speech takes a different form in their country - after all, each definition is specific to the country where it comes from (ie - Canadian freedom of speech vs American).

Also, I'd like to say that there are many Canadians whose families have been here for 200 years or so who seem to have just as poor an understanding of certain Charter rights - the difference being the rights in question have to do more with the freedom of religious and cultural expression.

And are you a young attractive woman? Because unless so, or unless you ask young women about their experiences in clubs, you really don't have any knowledge of how Muslim men act around them. And even if you're with Muslim men, no offense, but I highly doubt any of them are going to start referring to White women as whores around you.

A good half of my close friends are women, and I've played the part of the "saver" in clubs before, where they'll come to me if there's a guy who won't stop harassing them and take no for an answer. Unless Muslims in Ottawa are radically different than Muslims in Toronto, your claim that Muslim men are in general terrible towards all women, and the worst offenders in terms of harassing women in clubs, just doesn't stack up against my experiences AT ALL.

If the Muslim men I'm friends with and are acquaintances with (for many years) did in fact IN GENERAL hold racist views, than you're right they wouldn't be blunt about it - but generally you can't hide those views for too long before they expose themselves in subtle ways - this goes for any type of bigot, Muslim, Christian or otherwise.

Yes, that seems to be a common theme among Muslim men, here and elsewhere.

You also find that theme among bigoted white men, black men, etc - it's a theme found among bigots.

[Moxie]

Well if Toronto is going to be the model for a Canadian Utopian Socialist Muliticultural Diverse City I suggest we all go get permits to buy guns. Immigrants gangs are the problem not some city slicker who's native to Canada, when we allow Immigrants in from countries where violence is the norm can we really show surprise when they continue committing acts of violence in their adopted country? NO.

Not all Cultures are equal to Canadian Culture, it might not be politically correct to state that but it's true. Sadly women and children shall suffer because we aren't allowed to discuss banning Immigration from substandard backwards cultures. It's going to get much worse, at least in Toronto if a Muslim Male kills his wife over honour he can marry four more over the phone or internet or blackberry. Sniff isn't multiculture grand.

[Argus]

I don't think that's accurate. For sure, some immigrants aren't familiar with the values embodied in our Charter simply because they came from countries ruled by authoritarian regimes - that isn't exactly their fault.

I'm not saying it is. However, you're understating the case. It isn't because they come from places with "authoritarian regimes", it's because they come from cultures which do not have a history of compromise and acceptance of difference. It isn't an "authoritarian regime" which would come down on the head of a woman who tried to walk around in Cairo or Baghdad or Damascas in shorts and halter, it's the ordinary people who would mob her and likely beat her. And you do not cast aside your culture easily, especially when surrounded, in your "new home" with like minded people.

And again, this is only a problem due to the massive numbers of immigrants from third world countries, which has gotten to the point the majority of the people in Toronto are now foreign born. How does that affect politics and support for freedom? I'm betting not for the better.

A good half of my close friends are women, and I've played the part of the "saver" in clubs before, where they'll come to me if there's a guy who won't stop harassing them and take no for an answer. Unless Muslims in Ottawa are radically different than Muslims in Toronto, your claim that Muslim men are in general terrible towards all women, and the worst offenders in terms of harassing women in clubs, just doesn't stack up against my experiences AT ALL.

It isn't merely "My claim", you can find it in media all over the world, from England and France to Scandinavia to Australia, and really, is it surprising given the extremely misogynistic nature of Muslim societies? Do you really find it shocking that a young man who comes here from Lebanon, where a teenage girl seen walking alone with a boy without chaperone can be executed by her family, would find the behaviour of young Canadian women to be sluttish and cheap in the extreme?

I don't know how different Toronto is, but the culture is bound to be different in that there is a vast mix of races and ethnic groups everywhere (as I said, more than half the population is foreign born). In Ottawa the population is more homogenous, and you're likely to see whites (Canadian born), a few Asians, and then Muslims (mainly Lebanese and Somalians) who are all (I have never met one born here) foreign born.

If the Muslim men I'm friends with and are acquaintances with (for many years) did in fact IN GENERAL hold racist views, than you're right they wouldn't be blunt about it - but generally you can't hide those views for too long

Yes, well, it might well be that your Muslims are self-selected for their more liberal views. After all, how many Muslims would want a Jew hanging around them? Not many from what I've seen and read and heard.

[normanchateau]

I've studied Islam, I've been to mosque - all this while not hiding the fact that I'm Jewish.

You might also want to study this article published in Jewish Political Studies Review 17:1-2 (2005):

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-kuntzel-s05.htm

To the best of my knowledge, these 2003-2006 cartoons reminiscent of Nazi cartoons of the 1933-1945 era, were not created by Christians or Jews:

http://somebodyhelpme.info/cartoons/anti-S...ti-Semitic.html

[M.Dancer]

Something tells me that you haven't talked to many Muslims. All of the Muslims that I've talked to have at some point either tried to convert me and/or gone on about the Jews and how they control the media. All of them.

Sounds like you meet muslims in very contrived circumstances. Muslims I talk to usually want to know about the the upcoming proxy season and how the credit crunch wiull affect cros border M&A.

[kuzadd]

Might I suggest that they called you names, not because of your place of birth but because they believed you were an unpleasant person?

sadly, unpleasant people such as yourself, need to get the responses, they so dearly require.

In other words , having dealt with racist boors early on, I learned mighty fast how to deal with xenophobes who have no substance, no stats, just innuendo, postulations and stereotypes, they offer up as false knowledge and phony fact.

If the xenophobic shoe fits, you can wear it, and you do so well dear, so well.

[AngusThermopyle]

You might also want to study this article published in Jewish Political Studies Review 17:1-2 (2005):

http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-kuntzel-s05.htm

To the best of my knowledge, these 2003-2006 cartoons reminiscent of Nazi cartoons of the 1933-1945 era, were not created by Christians or Jews:

http://somebodyhelpme.info/cartoons/anti-S...ti-Semitic.html

Good links, the essay was especially interesting.

[Argus]

Good links, the essay was especially interesting.

All those vicious, racist cartoons certainly reveal the raw hypocrisy to Muslim outrage over the few mild ones that Danish newspaper put out.

[Drea]

Well if Toronto is going to be the model for a Canadian Utopian Socialist Muliticultural Diverse City I suggest we all go get permits to buy guns. Immigrants gangs are the problem not some city slicker who's native to Canada, when we allow Immigrants in from countries where violence is the norm can we really show surprise when they continue committing acts of violence in their adopted country? NO.

Not all Cultures are equal to Canadian Culture, it might not be politically correct to state that but it's true. Sadly women and children shall suffer because we aren't allowed to discuss banning Immigration from substandard backwards cultures. It's going to get much worse, at least in Toronto if a Muslim Male kills his wife over honour he can marry four more over the phone or internet or blackberry. Sniff isn't multiculture grand.

For the most part I agree Moxie.

But I think the problem is not in the fact that we allow them here but the fact that they all congegrate in one area. If they had to disperse throughout the country instead of all into the big cities I beleive we would have less of a problem.

It's difficult to be a gangbanger at 50 below in a community of 4000.

If they all were dispursed to our smalll towns they would have no choice but to integrate and learn the language.

It would be tough to find somoneone else in Valemount, for example, who would be sympathetic to the "old" issues from the "old" country.

As it is now they simply move from their old country to the old-country-within-the-new-country and never need interact with anyone out of their immigrant community.

That is what is wrong in my opinion.

Didn't we do this with Indians (not native peoples, people from India)... have them move to small towns back in the 70's?

Edited March 25, 2008 by Drea