Your Grocery Bill is about to hurt

[jdobbin]

Geothermal heating/cooling does not replace the need for electricity. It is a solution that will be cost-effective in some regions with high heating costs and lots of land. No one would ever think of installing geothermal power in high density areas like lower mainland of BC.

Geo-Thermal was never intended to replace electricity. It is a replacement for natural gas for heating and cooling.

They are thinking about the lower mainland in B.C. and are installing geo-thermal units. The new carbon tax in B.C. should accelerate that.

http://www.cerm3.mining.ubc.ca/energyresearch.htm

Why does the right wing continually say: "It can't be done."

It really is a failure of the imagination. Why are you against doing anything that will actually save Canadians money? People are already making the move to geo-thermal because it does save them money over the time they have it. In less than 15 years, it pays for itself. If you buy a house with it already installed, you start saving right away.

[Slim MacSquinty]

Exactly. And new buildings can also use it like the Manitoba Hydro building downtown which uses several types of energy and conservation.

Some of the newer geo-thermal plants for homes take up a lot less room than the older ones. In older neighborhoods, geo-thermal could be built is associated parks, parking lots or even the street.

I would not be surprised in places like Manitoba whether geo-thermal might come to dominate the market at some point.

I agree there are many applications for geo-thermal energy and it is best and most efficient when used for larger applications, I will probably go with it this summer, I've installed it before, also there are significantly better ways to build, but costs are 15 to 20 percent greater. I built a 1100 sqft home in Atikoken Ontario 15 years ago that could be heated comfortable with a domestic hot water heater all winter. Geo-thermal can't really work in typical subdivisions but industrial heat waste, central heating plants and large amounts of lake water could work extremely well in large urban centers.

Quote: Even the government's own statistics show that if every piece of arable land was used to grow ethanol, it would not curb our need for oil. At most, some figures show that it could amount to 35 or 40% of our needs.

But at what price? We wouldn't be growing our own food anymore. Worse, the price of energy is not going down so fueling your car would still be expensive but then so would your food be hugely expensive.

All kinds of third world countries could become energy producers and compete with the Arab world, that would be good, farmers making money in Canada would also be good, if we could lower the use of oil by even 20 percent that would be a great first step. Food prices going up is not necessarily a bad thing, much of the world subsidizes their farmer's so the net effect would be zero, higher food prices vs. lower taxes.

[Riverwind]

It really is a failure of the imagination. Why are you against doing anything that will actually save Canadians money? People are already making the move to geo-thermal because it does save them money over the time they have it. In less than 15 years, it pays for itself. If you buy a house with it already installed, you start saving right away.

If it makes sense economically then the government does not need to do a thing.

There are limits to 'imagination' - the government could mandate that all transportation must be by solar powered hover craft in 10 years. No amount of imagination will make that happen. CO2 alarmists have little or no understanding of the nature of energy production and how the price of energy affects our standard of living. The 'solutions' they advocate will never replace the majority of energy production.

At the end of the day the unavoidable equation equation is: eliminating CO2 will cause energy prices to rise which will reduce everyone's standard of living. Now such a trade off would be worthwhile if CO2 was a real threat, however, there is no compelling evidence that a warmer world is a worse than what we have now.

[jdobbin]

If it makes sense economically then the government does not need to do a thing.

Wish the right wing took that attitude with the subsidies going to the oil industry.

There are limits to 'imagination' - the government could mandate that all transportation must be by solar powered hover craft in 10 years. No amount of imagination will make that happen. CO2 alarmists have little or no understanding of the nature of energy production and how the price of energy affects our standard of living. The 'solutions' they advocate will never replace the majority of energy production.

At the end of the day the unavoidable equation equation is: eliminating CO2 will cause energy prices to rise which will reduce everyone's standard of living. Now such a trade off would be worthwhile if CO2 was a real threat, however, there is no compelling evidence that a warmer world is a worse than what we have now.

And I repeat: energy prices are going up anyways.

The right wing is on the wrong side of the environment issue and their solution is do nothing. They aren't even prepared to do anything on basic conservation.

[capricorn]

The right wing is on the wrong side of the environment issue and their solution is do nothing. They aren't even prepared to do anything on basic conservation.

Well they did bring in a plan to phase out incandescent light bulbs.

[jdobbin]

I agree there are many applications for geo-thermal energy and it is best and most efficient when used for larger applications, I will probably go with it this summer, I've installed it before, also there are significantly better ways to build, but costs are 15 to 20 percent greater. I built a 1100 sqft home in Atikoken Ontario 15 years ago that could be heated comfortable with a domestic hot water heater all winter. Geo-thermal can't really work in typical subdivisions but industrial heat waste, central heating plants and large amounts of lake water could work extremely well in large urban centers.

There are already plans to make entire sub-divisions geo-thermal. They were trying to get a 40,000 Winnipeg sub-division to go geo-thermal. It looks like large sections of it will be.

All kinds of third world countries could become energy producers and compete with the Arab world, that would be good, farmers making money in Canada would also be good, if we could lower the use of oil by even 20 percent that would be a great first step. Food prices going up is not necessarily a bad thing, much of the world subsidizes their farmer's so the net effect would be zero, higher food prices vs. lower taxes.

It doesn't reduce energy use though. In fact, it increases it when you have to start importing your food from afar because you are using your own land for food into energy.

[jdobbin]

Well they did bring in a plan to phase out incandescent light bulbs.

Because they are in a minority government and it was raised in committee as about the bare minimum that a government could do. They certainly didn't come up with the idea on their own.

Now, if they only came up with a proper waste disposal of those new lights.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[capricorn]

Because they are in a minority government and it was raised in committee as about the bare minimum that a government could do. They certainly didn't come up with the idea on their own.

Now, if they only came up with a proper waste disposal of those new lights.

They're waiting for the Liberals to come with a plan so they can steal it.

[Riverwind]

The right wing is on the wrong side of the environment issue and their solution is do nothing. They aren't even prepared to do anything on basic conservation.

Who said that? Conservation is fine but you are dreaming if you think it is going to solve the imaginary CO2 problem.

[jdobbin]

They're waiting for the Liberals to come with a plan so they can steal it.

Probably. They are in awe of Dion's brilliance.

[margrace]

Not going to happen without an increase in energy prices.

Incidently, energy use has always gone up as energy efficiency increases. There is no reason to believe that trend will change in the future unless the government makes it really expensive to use energy.

Try: http://www.mammothpacific.com/geothermal.html

One of my sons in law heats and cools his house with geo thermal, he just runs pipes out under the ground and pipes the heat from the ground back in. The cost per month for hot water and heat in the winter and a very cool house in the summer about $35 dollars a month. The other son in law has run his well water through the system and it heats his house, he just got it last fall and so far it has run very well, the cost has not been figured out yet.

The only drawback to either of these systems is the original cost of installing it.

If you are a young person it will pay out for you.

Edited March 5, 2008 by margrace

[Slim MacSquinty]

There are already plans to make entire sub-divisions geo-thermal. They were trying to get a 40,000 Winnipeg sub-division to go geo-thermal. It looks like large sections of it will be.

It doesn't reduce energy use though. In fact, it increases it when you have to start importing your food from afar because you are using your own land for food into energy.

A 40,000 what subdivision? 40,000 homes is a population of at least 120,000 people, wouldn't that double Winterpegs population? You really can't retro fit existing subdivisions, economically it can work in greenfield developments in blocks using common fields and a utility like delivery system but only if there is nearly 100 percent buy in. I have not seen any organization step up to act as the utility yet, but it is possible, condo developments would be ideal but the cost of land and zoing standards tend to encourage maximum housing density.

How much food do you suppose we import now? How efficiently do we use farmland in this country now? Why don't we grow fresh vegatibles hydroponically locally?

Ans. most, not very and because it remains more economical to import than adapt to hydroponics.

The cost of transportation (even with todays fuel prices) doesn't stop Hersey and Kraft from closing production facilities in Ontario for chocolate bars and cereal and producing the same products in Mexico or the southern states to supply the Ontarion market. Under those same conditions it seems perfectly feasable to import foreign produced ethanol.

[jdobbin]

A 40,000 what subdivision? 40,000 homes is a population of at least 120,000 people, wouldn't that double Winterpegs population? You really can't retro fit existing subdivisions, economically it can work in greenfield developments in blocks using common fields and a utility like delivery system but only if there is nearly 100 percent buy in. I have not seen any organization step up to act as the utility yet, but it is possible, condo developments would be ideal but the cost of land and zoing standards tend to encourage maximum housing density.

40,000 people subdivision. That is 11,000 homes. Ad it is needed because Winnipeg's population has grown due to immigration at some of the highest levels in 10 to 20 years. A lot of that land is provincially owned and Manitoba Hydro which owns Centra Gas is interested in geo-thermal because the upfront costs of gas lines for that much land are about in line with geo-thermal.

How much food do you suppose we import now? How efficiently do we use farmland in this country now? Why don't we grow fresh vegatibles hydroponically locally?

The energy costs alone preclude it as being a viable industry.

Ans. most, not very and because it remains more economical to import than adapt to hydroponics.

The most viable option is to grow on land near you and import only what can't be grown due to climate.

Growing food for fuel on all your land doesn't help the majority of Canadians, especially when ethanol is subsidized and protected.

The cost of transportation (even with todays fuel prices) doesn't stop Hersey and Kraft from closing production facilities in Ontario for chocolate bars and cereal and producing the same products in Mexico or the southern states to supply the Ontarion market. Under those same conditions it seems perfectly feasable to import foreign produced ethanol.

The price of that food is going up because of the transportation costs and will continue to go because of rising energy costs. At some point, it once again becomes viable to produce those products closer to home because it will be cheaper.

[blueblood]

Ho hum

Geothermal energy = best thing since sliced bread, power bill even when paying the damn thing off is reduced in half. If you have an older house and plan on setting up shop for a while, it is a wise investment.

As for that individual from princeton in the McCleans mag, he needs to go to his Alma Mater and ask for a refund and take a basic algebra course. He's bitching and complaining about fertilizer etc for ethanol, well I mean honest to God does he think that just because it isn't ethanol that we are all going to stop using fertilizer. That guy believes that farmers should be bloody serfs giving their crops away so city people can have cheap food that they're "entitled" to, he has as much credibility in agriculture as that fool Wayne Easter. What that ivory tower phd doesn't realize is that the economy of the west is going to be much more sustainable now that there is another profitable industry other than oil. Having an extremely profitable ag sector is very good for our economy, and helps out significantly if our extremely inefficient unionized manufacturing sector goes in the toilet.

If high food prices are such a pain in the ass, there is nothing stopping people from growing their own food. Also high food prices helps out the economy in developing countries as it makes their ag sector profitable and gives out jobs. Instead of us flooding their market and putting their farmers out of business, lets let them have a go at it and make some money too.

I for one am happy that I have money to spend, don't have to be running old junk anymore, can afford to have a safer working environment, and I can actually contribute instead of watching others go hat in hand for shitty Wayne Easter Christmas presents.

[kengs333]

You think it is bad now - just wait to see what happens if the eco-nuts manage to get real CO2 reduction legislation (as opposed feel good-accomplish nothing legislation) passed. We will be nostalgic for the prices of today.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Maybe you'd care to look at what's behind the whole ethanol thing--"eco-nuts" have little to do with it. Ethanol is produced by corporations, and so the industry functions no different than any other and thus we end up with the same old kinds of problems. Environmentalists have promoted ethanol as an alternative fuel, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that believes that ethanol is the solution to all our problems.

[kengs333]

The price of flour has doubled in the last 3 weeks, read this one, there have been riots in Italy and Mexico over the cost of wheat based products.

Time we had a look at this one

The price of wheat has, to the best of my knowledge, always been regulated to keep its price artifically low. The fact that farms can now produce crops that actually make it worthwhile to farm and pay off the debts that they've racked up so we can all eat cheap food is in a way a good thing, and I have no problem with paying a higher price for items such as bread.

[August1991]

The price of wheat has, to the best of my knowledge, always been regulated to keep its price artifically low.

Hein?

Who regulates the world price of wheat?

Of course! Big Wheat, and it must be forming a cartel with Big Iron. Check the charts here.

[White Doors]

Not going to happen without an increase in energy prices.

Incidently, energy use has always gone up as energy efficiency increases. There is no reason to believe that trend will change in the future unless the government makes it really expensive to use energy.

Try: http://www.mammothpacific.com/geothermal.html

My power bill was almost $600 last month. I am going to try ways to conserve now for sure.

[kuzadd]

LOLOLOLOLOLOL. Maybe you'd care to look at what's behind the whole ethanol thing--"eco-nuts" have little to do with it. Ethanol is produced by corporations, and so the industry functions no different than any other and thus we end up with the same old kinds of problems. Environmentalists have promoted ethanol as an alternative fuel, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that believes that ethanol is the solution to all our problems.

"eco-nuts" have nothing to do with ethanol, look to big business for that one!!!!

here's the board of directors of Renewable Fuel Association a big lobby group

http://www.ethanolrfa.org/about/leadership/

Bush Delivers Speech on Renewable Fuel Sources

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6042500762.html

For 25 years the Renewable Fuels Association has been a tireless advocate for ethanol producers. Your advocacy is paying off. Renewable energy is one of the great stories of recent years, and it's going to be a bigger story in the years to come.

REAL ,Environmentalists don't see ethanol as a solution at all, you are correct on that Kengs.!

go over to organic consumers and see what they post about ethanol, non-supportive completely.

[Riverwind]

Environmentalists have promoted ethanol as an alternative fuel, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find one that believes that ethanol is the solution to all our problems.

Environmentalists are the ones insisting that the imaginary CO2 problem must be "solved". Different opportunitists exploit the fear created by environmentalists in different ways but that does not change the fact that the root of the problem rests with the enviromental activists.

REAL ,Environmentalists don't see ethanol as a solution at all, you are correct on that Kengs.! go over to organic consumers and see what they post about ethanol, non-supportive completely.

"Real" environmentalists would recognize that the only real options are a massive and rapid expansion of nuclear power and a focus on adaption instead of prevention. Edited March 5, 2008 by Riverwind

[kuzadd]

Environmentalists are the ones insisting that the imaginary CO2 problem must be "solved". Different opportunitists exploit the fear created by environmentalists in different ways but that does not change the fact that the root of the problem rests with the enviromental activists.

"Real" environmentalists would recognize that the only real options are a massive and rapid expansion of nuclear power and a focus on adaption instead of prevention.

your environmentalists are certainly not any I am aware of.

Did you check out the lobby members?

You assertation was wrong off the hop wrt environmentalists being supportive of ethanol.

Big business supports ethanol and has lobbied hard for it.

You should at least acknowledge the error you made?

[Riverwind]

You assertion was wrong off the hop wrt environmentalists being supportive of ethanol.

Read what I said. I said it was the environmentalists that created this panic over CO2 and they are ultimately responsible for everything that someone does in the name of battling this imaginary threat. IOW - I don't care if environmentalists never specifically advocated for ethanol - they are still responsible for the unintended consequences of the public policy positions they take. Edited March 5, 2008 by Riverwind

[Topaz]

Because they are in a minority government and it was raised in committee as about the bare minimum that a government could do. They certainly didn't come up with the idea on their own.

Now, if they only came up with a proper waste disposal of those new lights.

Also because those lights contain mercury they say DO NOT let any child in the room and be very care how you clean up the glass.

[Leafless]

One of my sons in law heats and cools his house with geo thermal, he just runs pipes out under the ground and pipes the heat from the ground back in. The cost per month for hot water and heat in the winter and a very cool house in the summer about $35 dollars a month. The other son in law has run his well water through the system and it heats his house, he just got it last fall and so far it has run very well, the cost has not been figured out yet.

The only drawback to either of these systems is the original cost of installing it.

If you are a young person it will pay out for you.

Do you know what geothermal is?

What you are stating is an outright lie without proof how you achieve this.

[Leafless]

If I had some of the upfront costs now, I'd be doing it tomorrow and disconnecting my gas.

Have fun.

Upfront cost can run as high as $90,000.