Your Grocery Bill is about to hurt

[margrace]

The price of flour has doubled in the last 3 weeks, read this one, there have been riots in Italy and Mexico over the cost of wheat based products.

Time we had a look at this one

[M.Dancer]

The Joy of Ethanol....

[Riverwind]

The Joy of Ethanol....

You think it is bad now - just wait to see what happens if the eco-nuts manage to get real CO2 reduction legislation (as opposed feel good-accomplish nothing legislation) passed. We will be nostalgic for the prices of today. Edited March 4, 2008 by Riverwind

[Wilber]

The Joy of Ethanol....

Yup, we drove I-80 last September and there was nothing but corn growing from Pennsylvania to South Dakota. Bread Basket of the World? Not any more.

[HistoryBuff44]

You think it is bad now - just wait to see what happens if the eco-nuts manage to get real CO2 reduction legislation (as opposed feel good-accomplish nothing legislation) passed. We will be nostalgic for the prices of today.

whats interesting is that some of the stuff i have read is questioning whether, when the entire process is taken into account, the biofuel does actually produce less CO2.

[Riverwind]

whats interesting is that some of the stuff i have read is questioning whether, when the entire process is taken into account, the biofuel does actually produce less CO2.

Every 'alternate' technology has a dark side when implemented on a massive scale. Wind/solar power must have reliable backup mechanisms which increase the cost and will likely pollute and/or emit CO2. Nuclear power has its own issues. Hydro and geothermal power are limited by geography/geology.

It all adds up to more expensive energy which, in turn, increases the cost of food.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Riverwind

[fellowtraveller]

My cousin the farmer said plenty of canola acreage in Eastern Alberta and western Sask will be in biofuel crops this year.

[jdobbin]

You think it is bad now - just wait to see what happens if the eco-nuts manage to get real CO2 reduction legislation (as opposed feel good-accomplish nothing legislation) passed. We will be nostalgic for the prices of today.

Scare tactics.

It is the ethanol supporters in all parties who going down the wrong road. It doesn't even reduce emissions the way it is supposed to. It is a farm subsidy support system.

[jdobbin]

It all adds up to more expensive energy which, in turn, increases the cost of food.

Energy is going up regardless of what we do.

The government needs to encourage conservation.

There are few limitations on geo-thermal. It is the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

[BubberMiley]

The government needs to encourage conservation.

Sadly this government is in the pocket of the oil industry, and will perpetuate the idea that conservation is what "eco-nuts" do.

[Slim MacSquinty]

whats interesting is that some of the stuff i have read is questioning whether, when the entire process is taken into account, the biofuel does actually produce less CO2.

That's a crock, they factored in every crazy thing they could think of like how much forest would be burned down to provide new forest in the third world, while they gave the oil industry a buy. Ethanol should theroretically be relatively carbon neutral as when the crop grows it absorbs carbon, as it's burned it releases no more than it absorbed except for processing (which does not necessarily require burning carbon based materials) and transport.

The ecofreaks seem to suck and blow as they are critical of everthing except punishment for the developed western world.

Ethanol is a great idea, it will be an excellent intermediate step between total dependance on oil and the transition to yet un-economical energy sources. The extra benefit is farming will finally become profitable and it might even make farmland valuable enough to prevent increasing urban sprawl.

The earth may indeed be warming, only presumptious humans could assume they are responsible, climate data only goes back less than 200 years over the millions of years of earth history and therefore hardly produces a valuable trend. However that being said, all the pollution we pump into the air can't be good and we should take measures to minimize it, in addition oil is a finite resource we should be looking to replace, and one excuse to do so is as good as the other, just how draconian should we be?

[jdobbin]

Sadly this government is in the pocket of the oil industry, and will perpetuate the idea that conservation is what "eco-nuts" do.

I agree that the right wing seems to be against any attempt to create standards for vehicles and industry as being too costly.

Their environmental policy in the last election ran a single line or two. Even many Albertans are increasingly asking the question of whether it a good idea to churn out crap with little or no thought as to what the consequences are.

And when the government does come up with a policy, it is ill conceived like the cancelled program to subsidize car purchases or the ethanol program.

[Riverwind]

The government needs to encourage conservation.

Not going to happen without an increase in energy prices.

Incidently, energy use has always gone up as energy efficiency increases. There is no reason to believe that trend will change in the future unless the government makes it really expensive to use energy.

There are few limitations on geo-thermal. It is the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

Try: http://www.mammothpacific.com/geothermal.html

With all these advantages, you might wonder why there aren’t more geothermal power plants. Unfortunately, they can’t be built just anywhere. There must be a proven geothermal resource and the facility must be located near that resource. It’s also important to note that geothermal facilities require a substantial up-front capital investment that involves exploration to confirm the geothermal resource as well as purchasing equipment and building the pipelines and power plants.

[guyser]

The earth may indeed be warming, only presumptious humans could assume they are responsible, climate data only goes back less than 200 years over the millions of years of earth history and therefore hardly produces a valuable trend.

How does one explain all the core samples of ice that can show climate change? Those go back far greater than 200 yrs

[jdobbin]

Ethanol is a great idea, it will be an excellent intermediate step between total dependance on oil and the transition to yet un-economical energy sources. The extra benefit is farming will finally become profitable and it might even make farmland valuable enough to prevent increasing urban sprawl.

Even the government's own statistics show that if every piece of arable land was used to grow ethanol, it would not curb our need for oil. At most, some figures show that it could amount to 35 or 40% of our needs.

But at what price? We wouldn't be growing our own food anymore. Worse, the price of energy is not going down so fueling your car would still be expensive but then so would your food be hugely expensive.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[jdobbin]

Not going to happen without an increase in energy prices.

Enery prices are going up regardless because of demand from nations that had no cars less than 30 years ago.

Incidently, energy use has always gone up as energy efficiency increases. There is no reason to believe that trend will change in the future unless the government makes it really expensive to use energy.

Try: http://www.mammothpacific.com/geothermal.html

The limitations are the large up front costs. In Canada, geo-thermal can be used almost anywhere except on rock. Even in Newfoundland, geo-thermal can be sunk in offshore plants in the ocean.

The pay off on geo-thermal can be no fossil fuels used in heating and cooling your house.

Your opposition to the idea notwithstanding, it is a form of energy that can be used almost every place in Canada.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[Leafless]

Energy is going up regardless of what we do.

The government needs to encourage conservation.

There are few limitations on geo-thermal. It is the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

So what kind of application relating to geothermal are you talking about or to service what a house, city?

We are living in a country in a country that experiences Arctic type winters and I doubt if expensive geothermal or conventional type heat pumps are going to really help that much.

I think Canadians won't have a choice but to seek out the cheapest alternative for essentials like home heating even if it is coal.

This should also be a priority with government to ensure Canadians do not freeze in the dark and can heat themselves at reasonable cost or society will crumble.

[jdobbin]

So what kind of application relating to geothermal are you talking about or to service what a house, city?

We are living in a country in a country that experiences Arctic type winters and I doubt if expensive geothermal or conventional type heat pumps are going to really help that much.

I think Canadians won't have a choice but to seek out the cheapest alternative for essentials like home heating even if it is coal.

This should also be a priority with government to ensure Canadians do not freeze in the dark and can heat themselves at reasonable cost or society will crumble.

Geo-thermal could provide all the heating and cooing for a house. There are plenty of my neighbors who are going the route. They are disconnected off the natural gas line. They don't need it anymore.

Winnipeg is about the coldest major city in the world. If it can be done here, you don't think it can be done elsewhere? My neighbors are starting to recover the cost of their conversion almost immediately.

If I had some of the upfront costs now, I'd be doing it tomorrow and disconnecting my gas.

There are plans to try to have the first sub-division in all of Canada be completely geo-thermal. If it is built at the time of construction, it is about the same cost as putting in the gas lines.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[BubberMiley]

So what kind of application relating to geothermal are you talking about or to service what a house, city?

My cousin has a geothermal system installed in his house in Winnipeg. I'm quite envious. Not only does it keep the house toasty in the winter, it cools it nicely in the summer. And all he has to pay for is the electricity for his pumps.

It cost him about 20K to set up. You need a decent-size yard, but that can be overcome in new developments if it's set up for all the houses before they're built.

[guyser]

So what kind of application relating to geothermal are you talking about or to service what a house, city?

We are living in a country in a country that experiences Arctic type winters and I doubt if expensive geothermal or conventional type heat pumps are going to really help that much.

Housing and whole cities.Iceland is all thermal heating.

Have you ever put in a deck with posts in the ground? Do you know why you have to go at least 4 feet down? The frost line is why. Ever wondered why a dog digs in the dirt beneath the deck?

Once you get below 5 or 6 feet, the earth is a constant 7C , winter summer spring and fall.

Put pipes in the ground, run them straight down and use them as a heat exchanger. In summer you get cool air only needing a bit of heat boost to bring it to 20C, and in the winter the same thing.

I wanted to use thermal at my cottage. It was expensive, but the real problem was the ground is too rocky.

One of my clients is a thermal ground heating contractor. His prices have fallen significantly in the past 5 years. I suspect it will be a viable option soon. And IIRC, a home north of Winnepeg uses $200 annually to heat her house. Aint nothing warm about winter north of Winnepeg.Great savings for her.

Edited March 5, 2008 by guyser

[jdobbin]

My cousin has a geothermal system installed in his house in Winnipeg. I'm quite envious. Not only does it keep the house toasty in the winter, it cools it nicely in the summer. And all he has to pay for is the electricity for his pumps.

It cost him about 20K to set up. You need a decent-size yard, but that can be overcome in new developments if it's set up for all the houses before they're built.

Exactly. And new buildings can also use it like the Manitoba Hydro building downtown which uses several types of energy and conservation.

Some of the newer geo-thermal plants for homes take up a lot less room than the older ones. In older neighborhoods, geo-thermal could be built is associated parks, parking lots or even the street.

I would not be surprised in places like Manitoba whether geo-thermal might come to dominate the market at some point.

[guyser]

I would not be surprised in places like Manitoba whether geo-thermal might come to dominate the market at some point.

I think Man is leading the way. Perhaps you can shed light, is the soil lacking in rocks and easily dug?

Then again, if it works in your cold climate, it should work everywhere...well, not where there is rock or permafrost but everywhere else.

City of TO has termal for office towers downtown. The pipes run 1K or 1M (not sure) out into Lake Ont.

[jdobbin]

I wanted to use thermal at my cottage. It was expensive, but the real problem was the ground is too rocky.

One of my clients is a thermal ground heating contractor. His prices have fallen significantly in the past 5 years. I suspect it will be a viable option soon. And IIRC, a home north of Winnepeg uses $200 annually to heat her house. Aint nothing warm about winter north of Winnepeg.Great savings for her.

The main limitation as you point out...rocky surfaces.

There are some people here that are proposing using lake beds to put in geo-thermal. Not sure how that would work but if they can build a chunnel between Britain and France, I imagine it is possible. I think that is one solution they were talking about in regards to Toronto.

Can you imagine if the federal government, provinces and municipalities committed themselves to this program? It would save every Canadian billions in individual savings and actually do something to help the environment.

[Riverwind]

Geo-thermal could provide all the heating and cooing for a house. There are plenty of my neighbors who are going the route. They are disconnected off the natural gas line. They don't need it anymore.

Geothermal heating/cooling does not replace the need for electricity. It is a solution that will be cost-effective in some regions with high heating costs and lots of land. Widespread use of geothermal power in high density areas like lower mainland of BC will never happen Edited March 5, 2008 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

I think Man is leading the way. Perhaps you can shed light, is the soil lacking in rocks and easily dug?

Then again, if it works in your cold climate, it should work everywhere...well, not where there is rock or permafrost but everywhere else.

City of TO has termal for office towers downtown. The pipes run 1K or 1M (not sure) out into Lake Ont.

In the Red River Valley, it is ideal. It gets a little harder when you get into the Canadian Shield in the east or the mountains in the west. However, as you point out, there is a thought that lake beds would be ideal.

Edited March 5, 2008 by jdobbin