Your Grocery Bill is about to hurt

[blueblood]

I agree that in some neighborhoods where houses are cheek by jowl, you need to have some cooperation between the city and each neighbor. If the vertical pipes can be set beneath city property, it would be possible. Considering that pipes now go to retention ponds and lakes owned by the city or Crown, I think it possible cities will be open to it.

As far as disagreements go, I think you know I don't want farmers living in poverty and for them to get a good price for their products. What I am concerned with is the drive for food for fuel and the whether it actually reduces energy use or emissions.

I'd also hate for farmers to become dependent on ethanol when hydrogen fuel cells could be commercially viable in ten years.

The only way to get cheap food in Canada and a fair price is supply management.

Hydrogen fuel cells could be viable, but wouldn't go because of the sheer fact of economics. The oil industry and now the ethanol industry are churning out a lot of dollars for the Canadian economy. The fact that this way of producing energy is more labor intensive and expensive is why our economy isn't in the tank right now. Hydrogen would be great as far as being cheap for the consumer goes, but how does that help out the economy. With all those oil jobs being lost to a cheaper form of energy, there might be economic chaos in Canada.

I'm also thinking that geothermal might be pushed real hard to be put in prairie homes. Fertilizer is in great demand and they need all the natural gas they can get.

[jdobbin]

The only way to get cheap food in Canada and a fair price is supply management.

Food prices are going to go up regardless because demand overseas will dictate it.

I just disagree with food for fuel.

Hydrogen fuel cells could be viable, but wouldn't go because of the sheer fact of economics. The oil industry and now the ethanol industry are churning out a lot of dollars for the Canadian economy. The fact that this way of producing energy is more labor intensive and expensive is why our economy isn't in the tank right now. Hydrogen would be great as far as being cheap for the consumer goes, but how does that help out the economy. With all those oil jobs being lost to a cheaper form of energy, there might be economic chaos in Canada.

I'm also thinking that geothermal might be pushed real hard to be put in prairie homes. Fertilizer is in great demand and they need all the natural gas they can get.

Oil jobs will disappear regardless when wells are tapped out. We should be thinking about the next step.

And Canada would benefit from hydrogen fuel cells. Why? Water. Manitoba will be the home of the new blue eyed sheiks.

I totally agree with you on geo-thermal for rural homes.

[blueblood]

Food prices are going to go up regardless because demand overseas will dictate it.

I just disagree with food for fuel.

Oil jobs will disappear regardless when wells are tapped out. We should be thinking about the next step.

And Canada would benefit from hydrogen fuel cells. Why? Water. Manitoba will be the home of the new blue eyed sheiks.

I totally agree with you on geo-thermal for rural homes.

I'd say geo-therm for suburban homes as well.

Oil jobs will of course go when the wells are tapped out, but we need to milk that dry. and that needs jobs. My concern with hydrogen is that it wouldn't be very labour intensive. If hydrogen is the way of the future, why Manitoba, sure it has some water. I think cities along the ocean coasts would benefit more from it, just wait and see how de-salinization technology goes, if that comes, along with how simple and less labour intensive hydrogen technology appears, watch jobs in the energy sector go. Also, would water levels worldwide change with this?

Canada won't let it's population starve, politicians aren't that stupid. The politicians are looking at Canada first and how to improve and prolong our oil based economy which has made our country wealthy. Ethanol and the oil industry are providing big jobs out there, but we shouldn't abandon them right on the spot for hydrogen; that should be phased in along with a plan for future employment of oil field and potential oil field workers. As for becoming a water sheik, I've got some water I'd like to get rid of.

[jdobbin]

I'd say geo-therm for suburban homes as well.

Oil jobs will of course go when the wells are tapped out, but we need to milk that dry. and that needs jobs. My concern with hydrogen is that it wouldn't be very labour intensive. If hydrogen is the way of the future, why Manitoba, sure it has some water. I think cities along the ocean coasts would benefit more from it, just wait and see how de-salinization technology goes, if that comes, along with how simple and less labour intensive hydrogen technology appears, watch jobs in the energy sector go. Also, would water levels worldwide change with this?

Less labour intensive? It is forecast that it will be hugely labour intensive. However, it is not without its hurdles.

Fresh water is the key and that is why places like Manitoba are usually said to be a likely superpower in that economy. However, you are I are likely going to be old folks before that happens.

Canada won't let it's population starve, politicians aren't that stupid. The politicians are looking at Canada first and how to improve and prolong our oil based economy which has made our country wealthy. Ethanol and the oil industry are providing big jobs out there, but we shouldn't abandon them right on the spot for hydrogen; that should be phased in along with a plan for future employment of oil field and potential oil field workers. As for becoming a water sheik, I've got some water I'd like to get rid of.

If food continues to go up because we are growing it all for fuel, then we will see an increasing backlash. I think we are just starting to see it now.

[Leafless]

There are one or two members of this forum who have thermal who could give you more details on how their system works and the costs.

I have worked in air-conditioning and refrigeration as part of my job involving scientific equipment.

I just was wondering how someone like you can praise geothermal when you are not fully aware of all the technical aspects related to geothermal and all the extra cost involved and all you quote are hydro cost.

You and others do not paint the full picture.

But this is typical with Liberals anyways as all they feed you is horse manure relating to just about anything.

[jdobbin]

I have worked in air-conditioning and refrigeration as part of my job involving scientific equipment.

I just was wondering how someone like you can praise geothermal when you are not fully aware of all the technical aspects related to geothermal and all the extra cost involved and all you quote are hydro cost.

You and others do not paint the full picture.

But this is typical with Liberals anyways as all they feed you is horse manure relating to just about anything.

You keep saying that is $90,000 and I have not see it that high in any home that has gotten it installed. The most I have seen is $20,000 for an average size house.

I just spoke to the person who had it installed. This is what they said. "Six bore holes, a heat pump as well as controls, pumps, wiring, antifreeze, and labour. It was approximately $1.30 per cubic foot of structure volume. An 1200 square foot home on a finished basement with a volume of about 1100 X 8 X 2 floors totalling 17600 cu.ft. Multiplied by a factor of $1.30, it cost $22,880."

Heat pumps last more than 10 years.

What other extra costs are you thinking about? That is what they paid and they have had no additional costs since.

And please refrain from the insults. I haven't insulted you. I just haven't heard the horror stories you have about additional costs.

Edited March 6, 2008 by jdobbin

[blueblood]

I have worked in air-conditioning and refrigeration as part of my job involving scientific equipment.

I just was wondering how someone like you can praise geothermal when you are not fully aware of all the technical aspects related to geothermal and all the extra cost involved and all you quote are hydro cost.

You and others do not paint the full picture.

But this is typical with Liberals anyways as all they feed you is horse manure relating to just about anything.

I am the farthest thing from a Liberal, and the geotherm thing works, maybe not in Ontairo, but in MB if you have an older house and a decent size yard, which lots of Manitobans do, it makes perfect sense to install one. Even with the payments of paying the damn thing off that are tacked onto your hydro bill, your hydro bill is STILL reduced significantly, on top of that you get free air-conditioning. The warranty on the damn things is also very fair on top of that. My electric bill has been cut in half with this heating, and on the hydro bill I'm still making payments.

[blueblood]

Less labour intensive? It is forecast that it will be hugely labour intensive. However, it is not without its hurdles.

Fresh water is the key and that is why places like Manitoba are usually said to be a likely superpower in that economy. However, you are I are likely going to be old folks before that happens.

If food continues to go up because we are growing it all for fuel, then we will see an increasing backlash. I think we are just starting to see it now.

In the long run it would be cheaper to pop up a desalinization plant around coastal cities when the technology comes around.

I seriously think that growing food for fuel is not a permanent fix. It is a quick way for the ag sector to make money, why? There needs to be a large amt. of capital in the ag sector to generate the funds for research of much more efficient crops etc. The grain industry is fine now, and it has generated and will generate much more employment. Also by burning the excess grain instead of dumping it, we are giving poorer countries a chance to reboot their ag economies by not flooding the market with cheap grain and putting them out of business.

This backlash you are talking about was coming for sometime with biofuels or not. If there wasn't biofuels, they would blame it on the livestock industry taking all the grain to feed a few cows when the grain could have went to poorer countries who can't afford beef.

The bigger problem is those murderous bastards at greenpeace who say that high yielding GMO's are evil, they would rather see people starve than growing crops that would feed them. The high grain prices are good for Eastern Europe to get their struggling Ag sector back on line as well as it's light years behind ours. The ethanol thing is a way of prolonging the oil industry until like you said hydrogen can come in, and take over which will be expensive.

[jdobbin]

In the long run it would be cheaper to pop up a desalinization plant around coastal cities when the technology comes around.

Desalination is extremely expensive and controversial. That is why the hydrogen industry would first locate near feash water bodies. You would have to cite where you got the word is was cheaper. I's not.

I seriously think that growing food for fuel is not a permanent fix. It is a quick way for the ag sector to make money, why? There needs to be a large amt. of capital in the ag sector to generate the funds for research of much more efficient crops etc. The grain industry is fine now, and it has generated and will generate much more employment. Also by burning the excess grain instead of dumping it, we are giving poorer countries a chance to reboot their ag economies by not flooding the market with cheap grain and putting them out of business.

I think ethanol is a runaway train. I think that people who need corn and grains for food are going to find that they are going to ethanol instead and we are going to see prices rise faster than ever before. I wouldn't be surprised if some farmers only produce fuel in the next little while.

This backlash you are talking about was coming for sometime with biofuels or not. If there wasn't biofuels, they would blame it on the livestock industry taking all the grain to feed a few cows when the grain could have went to poorer countries who can't afford beef.

The bigger problem is those murderous bastards at greenpeace who say that high yielding GMO's are evil, they would rather see people starve than growing crops that would feed them. The high grain prices are good for Eastern Europe to get their struggling Ag sector back on line as well as it's light years behind ours. The ethanol thing is a way of prolonging the oil industry until like you said hydrogen can come in, and take over which will be expensive.

Ethanol is the single greatest factor at the moment causing flour and other foods to sore.

The pressure is going to mount on the government about their role in soaring food prices.

Even if every stitch of farm land was growing ethanol, it would only contribute 30 to 40% of our energy needs. And it doesn't prolong our oil supply. Energy consumption sucks up every drop of it as it is rising faster than ever before. We will be just sending the oil elsewhere.

[Leafless]

You keep saying that is $90,000 and I have not see it that high in any home that has gotten it installed. The most I have seen is $20,000 for an average size house.

An average size house in the city on a small lot means boring holes for the piping up to a depth of 300 ft. and boring through rock dramatically increases the cost plus upgrading windows and insulation plus the cost of the equipment and installation.

I just spoke to the person who had it installed. This is what they said. "Six bore holes, a heat pump as well as controls, pumps, wiring, antifreeze, and labour. It was approximately $1.30 per cubic foot of structure volume. An 1200 square foot home on a finished basement with a volume of about 1100 X 8 X 2 floors totalling 17600 cu.ft. Multiplied by a factor of $1.30, it cost $22,880."

Oh, stop it jdobbin, I found the link you copied that from:

the total package could figure approximately $1.30 per cubic foot of structure volume. An 1100 square foot home on a finished basement would have a volume of about 1100 X 8 X 2 floors totalling 17600 cu.ft. Multiplied by our factor of $1.30 we would estimate that project to cost $22,880, blah, blah

http://www.gogeothermal.ca/faq.html

Heat pumps last more than 10 years.

That depends where you live and how cold it is, but I would average that at 20 years.

And you should expect the more colder the climate you live in the more wear and tear on the compressor, which means in a cold climate like Winnipeg be prepared to replace your compressor every 5-10 years, and that cost $3,500 up.

What other extra costs are you thinking about? That is what they paid and they have had no additional costs since.

The true cost is everything you have invested in the system that must be averaged over the life time of the system being about 20 years.

So in your case you say the total cost is $20k, so that means over 20 years, it cost you $1,000 yearly, plus hydro and maintenance, if any, which is on the low side.

The information I found indicates your yearly saving compared to gas saves you about $1,000 dollars the exact amount your system cost you averaged over 20 years.

So in effect, currently, you are NOT saving anything.

BTW- I do think eventually energy cost for heating, will be government controlled or society will crumble.

[jdobbin]

An average size house in the city on a small lot means boring holes for the piping up to a depth of 300 ft. and boring through rock dramatically increases the cost plus upgrading windows and insulation plus the cost of the equipment and installation.

Oh, stop it jdobbin, I found the link you copied that from:

That's the company he got it from and the quote they gave for a house 1200 ft on standard lot. They do houses on the prairies from Alberta to Manitoba. There is no rock 300 ft down in the Red River Valley. It is down to hard clay. They did six vertical holes on his front yard. Pretty much all houses in Winnipeg have to go down vertically. Average cost $20 to 25,000 for five to six bore holes and the trench. I have never seen higher than that for that size house.

That depends where you live and how cold it is, but I would average that at 20 years.

I know a few people who are the ten year mark and haven't replaced them so you are probably right..

And you should expect the more colder the climate you live in the more wear and tear on the compressor, which means in a cold climate like Winnipeg be prepared to replace your compressor every 5-10 years, and that cost $3,500 up.

The true cost is everything you have invested in the system that must be averaged over the life time of the system being about 20 years.

So in your case you say the total cost is $20k, so that means over 20 years, it cost you $1,000 yearly, plus hydro and maintenance, if any, which is on the low side.

The information I found indicates your yearly saving compared to gas saves you about $1,000 dollars the exact amount your system cost you averaged over 20 years.

So in effect, currently, you are NOT saving anything.

BTW- I do think eventually energy cost for heating, will be government controlled or society will crumble.

So far the energy costs have paid off for the people that have had them ten years or so. Think back what gas was when those people who put them in. They saved a lot.

I wish I had your confidence that energy prices on gas will not rise even faster than what they have been. It is the law of supply and demand.

Edited March 6, 2008 by jdobbin

[Leafless]

So far the energy costs have paid off for the people that have had them ten years or so. Think back what gas was when those people who put them in. They saved a lot.

How is that since natural gas was also a lot cheaper than it is to-day and I doubt if ground source heat pump systems were any cheaper than than they are to-day.

Most manufacturers and installation companies take advantage of any newer trick out in the market 10 years ago and would not provide cheaper ground source heat pump systems than what they are going for to-day.

I wish I had your confidence that energy prices on gas will not rise even faster than what they have been. It is the law of supply and demand.

Canada a cold country depends on large quantities of energy for its survival. Gasoline shortages are already beginning to show at local service stations with no gas to sell at certain times.

But like I said, if energy cost continue to skyrocket and without some type of government intervention in the way of energy cost, it will more than likely result in the collapse of Canada, as we know it to-day.

The same can be said about the U.S., as the U.S. automotive industry and related industries provides the backbone of the country in the way of jobs and providing all important transportation.

[BubberMiley]

But like I said, if energy cost continue to skyrocket and without some type of government intervention in the way of energy cost, it will more than likely result in the collapse of Canada, as we know it to-day.

Government intervention into energy costs would be a disaster. Capping the price of a limited resource would just increase consumption, exacerbating the situation. Conservation and alternative sources are the only answers.

[margrace]

We have seniors living in our area who have lived here all their lives. They own their own homes and are pretty self sufficient. Many of them live on old age pensions and other government cheques. But when it costs over $1,000 to file the tank for the furnace they are looking disater in the face.

[jdobbin]

How is that since natural gas was also a lot cheaper than it is to-day and I doubt if ground source heat pump systems were any cheaper than than they are to-day.

Most manufacturers and installation companies take advantage of any newer trick out in the market 10 years ago and would not provide cheaper ground source heat pump systems than what they are going for to-day.

Some of the people I know said that while the up front costs were $10,000 more or so ten years ago, the rise of gas in the last years as made their investment in geothermal worthwhile.

Canada a cold country depends on large quantities of energy for its survival. Gasoline shortages are already beginning to show at local service stations with no gas to sell at certain times.

But like I said, if energy cost continue to skyrocket and without some type of government intervention in the way of energy cost, it will more than likely result in the collapse of Canada, as we know it to-day.

The same can be said about the U.S., as the U.S. automotive industry and related industries provides the backbone of the country in the way of jobs and providing all important transportation.

I don't know how it would be possible for Canada to control gas and oil prices. The last time a government tried to get involved in oil in Canada, it sealed its fate in the west.

[blueblood]

That's the company he got it from and the quote they gave for a house 1200 ft on standard lot. They do houses on the prairies from Alberta to Manitoba. There is no rock 300 ft down in the Red River Valley. It is down to hard clay. They did six vertical holes on his front yard. Pretty much all houses in Winnipeg have to go down vertically. Average cost $20 to 25,000 for five to six bore holes and the trench. I have never seen higher than that for that size house.

I know a few people who are the ten year mark and haven't replaced them so you are probably right..

So far the energy costs have paid off for the people that have had them ten years or so. Think back what gas was when those people who put them in. They saved a lot.

I wish I had your confidence that energy prices on gas will not rise even faster than what they have been. It is the law of supply and demand.

Um nat gas is going to rise, very very significantly due to fertilizer

[jdobbin]

Um nat gas is going to rise, very very significantly due to fertilizer

Which is why things like geothermal will be more appealing in terms of costs.

[Leafless]

Which is why things like geothermal will be more appealing in terms of costs.

Why do you continually refer to a bloody ground source heat pump as 'geothermal' rather than to properly identify what you are actually talking about.

[Leafless]

Um nat gas is going to rise, very very significantly due to fertilizer

Well when gas does rise significantly, you come back and tell us how much you saved, because currently you are not saving anything.

[jdobbin]

Why do you continually refer to a bloody ground source heat pump as 'geothermal' rather than to properly identify what you are actually talking about.

If that helps you identify what I am referring to then I'll call it a ground source heat pump. The catch-all phrase that these companies use seems to be geo-thermal.

From a government of Canada website:

http://www.canren.gc.ca/prod_serv/index.as...50&PgId=769

Geothermal heating and cooling systems (also called earth energy systems, ground-source heat pumps or GeoExchange SM systems) are heat pumps that collect and transfer heat from the earth through a series of fluid-filled, buried pipes running to a building, where the heat is then concentrated for inside use. Ground-source heat pumps do not create heat through combustion - they simply move heat from one place to another.

Edited March 7, 2008 by jdobbin