McGuinty to Flaherty: Back Off

[myata]

This federal government will not kowtow to the self-appointed barons in Toronto.

Self appointed? Funny... And I thought they were elected in a free vote open to all citizens? The one btw that gave them more sits than the last one ... an ousted the Tory leader from the Parliament... The length the conservatives will go to pursuade themselves in their very own, albeit alternative, version of reality.

[Alta4ever]

Self appointed? Funny... And I thought they were elected in a free vote open to all citizens? The one btw that gave them more sits than the last one ... an ousted the Tory leader from the Parliament... The length the conservatives will go to pursuade themselves in their very own, albeit alternative, version of reality.

At least you can admit that the conservatives are seated in reality unlike the NDP, Liberals and Greens.

[guyser]

First of all, Flaherty may just be right. Have you considered that possibility? Taxes are high in Ontario compared to other jurisdictions and this has had as an effect to reduce economic activity. So, Flaherty is simply stating his opinion about McGuinty's economic policies.

Second, I think the federal Tories can see that McGuinty is a weak politician. He won the last election by luck. Moreover, the federal Tories realize that criticizing the McGuinty government will help the Tories in Ontario (among the pool of potential Conservative voters there) and elsewhere in Canada too.

This federal government will not kowtow to the self-appointed barons in Toronto.

He may be right august, but no one in Ont wants to hear from the guy that put us in a bind years ago as provincial finance minister. He lied then and people do not forget.

stevie might want to think about that.It would be like hiring chretien to be ethics commisioner.

[myata]

At least you can admit that the conservatives are seated in reality ...

That's what I said. Their very own, private, "reality", that isn't necessarily related to the reality majority in this country lives in.

[Alta4ever]

That's what I said. Their very own, private, "reality", that isn't necessarily related to the reality majority in this country lives in.

I don't know what this private reality is but it seems to be MR. Harper must be in the same one as the rest of the country or his approval ratings wouldn't be were they are. Although those approval ratings sure tell us a lot about the fantasy world that the other parties are living in.

[guyser]

Harper must be in the same one as the rest of the country or his approval ratings wouldn't be were they are. Although those approval ratings sure tell us a lot about the fantasy world that the other parties are living in.

Just soaring....Liberals (33%) Edge Closer to Tories (35%)

March 25, 2008

http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=3861

soaring....oh yeah baby.

Now what was someone saying about fantasy? Oh yeah...too funny.

Oh and Ontario. ....he is oops....it sure aint soaring...In seat-rich Ontario, the Conservatives (33%) continue to trail the Liberals (43%)

..someones in a fantasy world. Dont let facts cloud your mind.

[Alta4ever]

Dion's popularity sinks even lower

Bruce Campion-Smith

Ottawa Bureau Chief

OTTAWA–Prime Minister Stephen Harper and his Conservatives have taken a 10-point lead over the Liberals as Stéphane Dion's unpopularity with voters plumbs new depths, according to a Toronto Star poll released today.

Only a "radical" shake-up in his performance may be enough to salvage his tenure as Liberal leader, pollster Angus Reid said in an interview.

The Conservatives enjoy the support of 36 per cent of Canadians – roughly the same level as the 2006 election – but the Liberals have dropped to 26 per cent, down two percentage points in the last month and four percentage points from the 2006 vote, according to the poll.

The New Democrats are at 18 per cent, the Bloc Québécois at 9 per cent and the Green party, which enjoyed a strong showing in the March 17 by-elections, is at 9 per cent, double its support in the 2006 federal election.

The news is grim for Dion, who is suffering through his worst month since taking the helm of the Liberal party in December 2006. His approval rating stands at 11 per cent, down 6 points since February.

And for the first time, more than half of Canadians – 57 per cent – disapprove of his performance, the numbers show.

Reid said voter dissatisfaction with Dion appears to be reaching levels rarely seen in Canada.

"I can't recall a time when an opposition leader had a disapproval rating as high and an approval rating as low," he said.

The sagging numbers will only boost the Conservative appetite for an election to capitalize on Dion's woes, Reid said. "There's no question that the Conservatives, now that they feel like they've got Dion cornered, will be doing everything in their power to get an election."

Angus Reid Strategies conducted the poll for the Star last Thursday and Friday. It conducted an online survey of 1,007 adult Canadians. Results from a survey that size are considered accurate to within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times in 20.

Dion's "momentum" score is also on the skids, Reid said. In March, 36 per cent of respondents said their opinion of Dion had worsened, while just 4 per cent said it had improved.

The momentum score is the worst ever for Dion and "frankly, among the worst I have ever seen for an opposition leader," said Reid, who has been surveying Canadian attitudes for decades.

"That doesn't auger well for any kind of pre-election period. It probably suggests why Dion has been reluctant to go to the polls," he said.

Perhaps worse for the Liberals, Reid said, those negative attitudes about Dion could prove tough to turn around.

"I think that he and his advisers are going to have to really seriously consider a very significant radical change in his overall performance, communications and strategy," he said. "Everything this guy does seems to be creating more problems than it resolves."

While the poll paints a bleak picture for the Liberals, the news isn't very rosy either for the Conservatives, as Canadians continue to express doubts about Harper as prime minister.

"No one should assume ... that there's a great, growing affection for Stephen Harper," Reid said.

Harper's approval rating stands at 33 per cent, down one point since February. But his own momentum score is sagging – in March, 11 per cent of respondents said their opinion of the Prime Minister improved while 27 per cent said it got worse.

More than a third of respondents – 36 per cent – prefer Harper as prime minister while just 9 per cent like Dion for the job.

But in a telling testament to public apathy for federal politics, 42 per cent of Canadians pick neither man for the country's top political job, giving rise to a "very weird time" in Canadian politics, Reid said.

"I can't remember a period when we had a prime minister who generally was not liked and a leader of the opposition who was as weak as Dion is," he said.

Political support is sharply divided along gender and age, with older men likely to back the Tories while women gravitate to the Liberals.

The sagging poll numbers come as Dion battles open dissension in Quebec and internal questions about his leadership.

TorStar

via Google

http://news.google.ca/nwshp?tab=wn&ned=ca&topic=n

[guyser]

link doesnt show the story. Got another one?

[Alta4ever]

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/407824

[guyser]

http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/407824

Thanks, not exactly bolstering your assertions though is it?

I mean with commentary such as this....."No one should assume ... that there's a great, growing affection for Stephen Harper," Reid said.

Harper's approval rating stands at 33 per cent, down one point since February. But his own momentum score is sagging – in March, 11 per cent of respondents said their opinion of the Prime Minister improved while 27 per cent said it got worse.

So, he is not soaring. Unless soaring is sagging.

[August1991]

He may be right august, but no one in Ont wants to hear from the guy that put us in a bind years ago as provincial finance minister. He lied then and people do not forget.

"No one" in Ontario?

There are several million people in Ontario and surely not all of them hate Stephen Harper. Indeed, if I'm not mistaken, Mike Harris was elected twice premier of Ontario.

Stephen Harper (and Jim Flaherty) realize that they can't get every single vote in Canada. So, like any political entrepreneur, they are fishing in the pool of potential Tory voters. Guyser, it appears that you are not in that pool. Well, so what?

[guyser]

"No one" in Ontario?

Fair enough, poor choice of words.

There are several million people in Ontario and surely not all of them hate Stephen Harper. Indeed, if I'm not mistaken, Mike Harris was elected twice premier of Ontario.

He was and I supported him. In fact he was not what anti's accuse him of. But that aside, his finance minister failed bad, and now he is Fed FM. I am only connecting the dots.

I am not saying they hate Harper, but when his main man goes around criticizing Ont voters by slagging Mcguinty it doesnt do much for getting votes.

Stephen Harper (and Jim Flaherty) realize that they can't get every single vote in Canada. So, like any political entrepreneur, they are fishing in the pool of potential Tory voters. Guyser, it appears that you are not in that pool. Well, so what?

Dont be so sure I wouldnt vote for him. Afterall....look at the libs now. I know one thing, and that is Dion could not get my vote.

[madmax]

I am not saying they hate Harper, but when his main man goes around criticizing Ont voters by slagging Mcguinty it doesnt do much for getting votes.

Dont be so sure I wouldnt vote for him. Afterall....look at the libs now. I know one thing, and that is Dion could not get my vote.

Flaherty is a blowhard and a two time leadership loser. He was a poor finance minister and he has been heavily critised, by Conservatives too, for his lack of judgement. However, his attacks were not so much taken as against Mcguinty as they were taken as Anti Ontario.

McGuinty is a dweeb, but a dweeb that just won a 2nd Majority, and strengthened it considerably.

So, looking at Mr. Guyser, who is an open voter, and quite frankly has limited options, having read his past posts over the last year, votes either Liberal or Conservative. Therefore, Flaherty is turning off Centrist/financial services voters. So where does one go if DION (also portrayed as a dweeb) is not your first pick?

These are the votes that Mr. Harper needs to get, and he ain't gonna get them with the likes of Flaherty spouting off like a little spoiled brat, and as Federal Finance minister, sits idly by as Ontario Bleeds. And there is more to come, it just hasn't caught up to the rest of the sectors. McGuinty was in denial that there was a manufacturing crises for 3 years, he let them bleed, and now he and Pupetello are running around like Chicken Little. I got no use for these two clowns who know nothing about working for a living, but as of recent, they can claim to be doing something, no matter how little or insignificant, and look like defenders of the Province, while the Feds and Flaherty look like Fat Cats looking to the West with eyes wide open and East with Blinders.

Look at Flaherty's comments over the past year, not much to like.

Look at Flaherty's Budget, and they are nothing to write home about.

Not alot happening and bordering on deficit. Yikes!!!

The Conservatives just barely broke back into Ontario, and they are not going anywhere with that kind of talk.

Heading into an election, with comments like Foolish Flaherty will make John Tory look like a home run hitter, instead of a 3 time loser.

Something about Ontario Conservatives. They never miss an opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot.

John Torys just came out of an ELection barely holding onto his base, and has just attacked civil servants in the mold of Mike Harris.

Good Luck John, you nose for exploiting a political opportunity is consistently plugged . No wonder this guy has no seat in the house. He reminds me of Joe Clark, but without the ability to win.

If he wanted to comment on Civil Servants and be accurate. He could mention that the wages for private sector middle class Ontarians are stagnate or falling, while those in the Civil Service continue to go up. Civil Servants best beware that this cannot sustain itself, and in time they may be looking at huge paycuts just like the private sector.

But Tory isn't that smart, because people with silver spoons often miss what is happening on the ground.

Tories Rambling Rant, combined with Flaherties (ironically very opposing views between each other), have done nothing to promote the Conservative Party as a viable option in Ontario.

If they keep this up, Ontario could remain a Liberal Stronghold, at a time when the Provincial Liberals haven't a clue what to do, and the Federal Liberals are afraid of their own shadow.

So Guyser......

Where does a Progressive, Moderate, Business Oriented, Service Sector voter put down their marker, say one who did vote for John Tory last time around, or previously supported Flaherty or Harper?

Do you just plug your nose, vote Conservative and put up with the ignorant yahoos that think Ontario should be sunk under the great lakes?

[guyser]

Flaherty is a blowhard and a two time leadership loser. He was a poor finance minister and he has been heavily critised, by Conservatives too, for his lack of judgement. However, his attacks were not so much taken as against Mcguinty as they were taken as Anti Ontario.

Which if true (anti-Ont) it is a dumb thing to engage in. But thats Flaherty, and by extension his party since he was not muzzled.

McGuinty is a dweeb, but a dweeb that just won a 2nd Majority, and strengthened it considerably.

And being a fan of Tory's, but hugely disappointed in his school stance, I wonder how McG managed that. (see schools I suppose)

So, looking at Mr. Guyser, who is an open voter, and quite frankly has limited options, having read his past posts over the last year, votes either Liberal or Conservative. Therefore, Flaherty is turning off Centrist/financial services voters. So where does one go if DION (also portrayed as a dweeb) is not your first pick?

Thats the question. It is also why I sincerely hope no election gets called now nor in the short term. Neither party leader does anything for me. If Dion stepped down tomorrow not much would change. Rae, Ignny, Kennedy? None of them appeal to me. Who else but Harper could lead the Cons (being moot anyway)? None that appeal to me. I would hate to spoil a ballot, or sit on the couch and not vote , but all said, I may have to vote for the Cons. Jeebus that sucks. It is not a question I need to answer for awhile anyhow.

These are the votes that Mr. Harper needs to get, and he ain't gonna get them with the likes of Flaherty spouting off like a little spoiled brat, and as Federal Finance minister, sits idly by as Ontario Bleeds. And there is more to come, it just hasn't caught up to the rest of the sectors. McGuinty was in denial that there was a manufacturing crises for 3 years, he let them bleed, and now he and Pupetello are running around like Chicken Little. I got no use for these two clowns who know nothing about working for a living, but as of recent, they can claim to be doing something, no matter how little or insignificant, and look like defenders of the Province, while the Feds and Flaherty look like Fat Cats looking to the West with eyes wide open and East with Blinders.

Look at Flaherty's comments over the past year, not much to like.

Look at Flaherty's Budget, and they are nothing to write home about.

Not alot happening and bordering on deficit. Yikes!!!

Well put.

But Tory isn't that smart, because people with silver spoons often miss what is happening on the ground.

Tories Rambling Rant, combined with Flaherties (ironically very opposing views between each other), have done nothing to promote the Conservative Party as a viable option in Ontario.

I dont agree with your assessment of Tory. He was born w a silver spoon, but I dont think he acts nor thinks in that mode. His wife wouldnt allow it.

So Guyser......

Where does a Progressive, Moderate, Business Oriented, Service Sector voter put down their marker, say one who did vote for John Tory last time around, or previously supported Flaherty or Harper?

Do you just plug your nose, vote Conservative and put up with the ignorant yahoos that think Ontario should be sunk under the great lakes?

I honestly dont know. I have alwasy liked the Cons in power provincially, and the Libs in Federally. I think it strikes a balance for the country.

I cant really answer more than I did earlier in this post. I could very well not vote if the same Fed bozos are up for election.

Somebody somewhere has to come out of the woodwork with charisma, smarts and the balls to campaign for the job. I could not care less if they sprung themself from BC Alta Que or the Atlantic provinces.

I do kind of like Danny Williams style , although I dont know much about him. He does seem to have the balls to stand up to others, but like I said, I am ignorant to his views.

[HisSelf]

The Toronto Star has it right? Personally I think Rex Murphy had it "righter".

The last guy with any chops to tell Ontario what to do is Jim Flaherty. Flaherty was the last guy that even the Harris/Eves Conservatives called on. They were going down the drain and Flaherty was stuck in there to try to put a brave face on it all, fiscally speaking. Anybody who has been watching BNN on this issue can see that even Bay Street holds their nose when Flaherty speaks.

How Harper thought he could actually gain anything politically by setting Flaherty loose is beyond me.

The most recent poll I've seen shows Dion doing poorly and Harper not gaining while the undecideds are climbing. If there was a decent opposition, Harper would be a goner.

Too bad the Libs didn't have the balls to make Rae their leader.

[eyeball]

Too bad the Libs (and the NDP) don't have the balls to just scrap themselves and join the Green Party.

Canada is probably doomed to 1st past the post for many many decades to come. If the left can't get over itself and unite then perhaps voting regionally the way Quebec has done is the answer to better representation.

[madmax]

Anybody who has been watching BNN on this issue can see that even Bay Street holds their nose when Flaherty speaks.

How Harper thought he could actually gain anything politically by setting Flaherty loose is beyond me.

The most recent poll I've seen shows Dion doing poorly and Harper not gaining while the undecideds are climbing. If there was a decent opposition, Harper would be a goner.

Certainly, reading the posts here, it shows that Harper has stalled and these policies aren't growing on people. It plays good to his base and western Canada, but doesn't grow on the larger, far more populous regions of the country. With the Liberals so weak, (they are getting Turner numbers) you would think the Conservatives would be on the verge of a Mulroney Landslide.

They need some good economic policy, a move on Environment, and move away from their tactics of behaving like they are still the opposition and not the government.

Too bad the Libs didn't have the balls to make Rae their leader.

You would soon learn, that while Rae is a tactician, a great public speaker, he also has little courage or conviction. While this would fit well with the Liberal Mould, and Rae has virtually always been a Liberal , I don't believe he could bring victory to the Liberals. He certainly might fight the Cons, and he still plays well publicly, although he shouldn't, but he did a great job of hiding his failures of leadership on the party he led. So perhaps Rae is a great politician, if that is how we view them, but Nothing he did has held any water.

The fact that after 15 years in power and Martin failing miserably as a leader, that the Liberals would have no one to choose other then a parachute intellectual elitist who spent most of his life in the US and supporting Harper on the Iraq War. Or Rae, a Failed NDP premier born with a silver spoon in his mouth, or Dion, another intellectual, who is not strategically competent is beyond me.

But none of these potential leaders, NONE could offer Ontario anymore hope then, what the Conservatives are offering and that isn't saying alot.

So really, what you say about the Libs not having the balls to make Rae their leader may not be an incorrect assessement. It could well be true.

But the most telling line, is that the Liberals don't have any balls.

[madmax]

Too bad the Libs (and the NDP) don't have the balls to just scrap themselves and join the Green Party.

The GP should run on its own merits and win. The fact that there are multiple parties, more then 2 should be an advantage to the GPs getting a seat. The Progressives, Communists, Social Credit, CCF, etc, have all been able to win a seat. It has been nearly 30 years, and perhaps the GP time will come in one riding or another.

For instance.... Jack Layton ran against a very popular Liberal Cabinet Minister as a new leader of the NDP. He took on his strong opponent in a Province where the NDP were not popular, after the Rae Fiasco as a Premier. He took on this opponent in a General Election and he Won. Very difficult to achieve.

Elizabeth May, ran in London, with the Issue on her side, (Environment) in a Bi Election, against a weak Liberal Parachute Candidate who just lost his seat to an NDP hopeful. With it being a by election and all the odds in her favour, she came up very very short. While spin doctors and media played up her results, really they are not that impressive. It just wasn't time yet, and the impact may be a generation or an election or two away. It could also completely collapse. (Such is politics)

But why a party with no seats in nearly 30 years should ask two parties to step aside for them is just absurd. Besides it is also rude to the voters, not to let them judge who would be best to serve their riding.

I understand why the GP want to have people step aside for them, it is their strategy.

And Dion, was weak enough to even play the game.

Why doesn't the GP ask the BQ to step aside? Opps...... off topic, this a a Provincial forum

Why doesn't the GP ask the PQ or the ADQ to step aside? Whew???

The Social Credit, Canada Action Party, and Many others would probably like the GP/Libs/NDP and even the CONS to step aside too.

Perhaps the Wild Rose Alliance, which has done better then the GP and even held a seat and has only been around a short time, should they ask the GP to step aside?

And as for the Libs and NDP joining the GP???? This is a very strange proposition. If you call the NDP and Libs Leftwing, (I don't) then why wouldn't the weakest group the GPs join the Libs... the Strongest?

And while their is leftwing elements in the GP, essentially their structure is more suited to wealthy conservative minded individuals... so why wouldn'tyou want the Cons to join????

Obviously, this is a thread, heavily off topic, with nothing to say about Flaherty or Mcguinty and the situation of Ontario economics, which often occurs when someone posts about the GP needing help from other parties.

Back on the subject.

Flaherty And McGuinty are two very different individuals.... and by speaking out of turn, and not supported by Harper, he has mistakenly given Dalton the edge.

Canada is probably doomed to 1st past the post for many many decades to come. If the left can't get over itself and unite then perhaps voting regionally the way Quebec has done is the answer to better representation.

Choosing an Electoral system is neither a Right or Left Proposition. In Ontario, without the need for party affliation, the chance to select proportional representation was soundly defeated by the majority of the voters.

On top of that, so few people bothered to vote.. barely 51%... shows that Proportional Representation isn't going to bring more people to the polls. If 49% of the people don't bother to vote, and don't bother to show up to support a change to the electoral system, then proportional representation isn't the solution to declining voter interest.

Proportional Representation in Ontario would have greatly benefitted the ONDP for the last decade, but they are still able to win seats by the skin of their teeth in many ridings against formidable Liberal and Conservative Opponents.

Regional Voting, creating a BLOCK was successful for the BQ and the Reform Party. These grew out of failed Conservative governments. Same with the Sask Party.

But, regional voting will only get you so far, the limitations indicate that the Regional Interests are declining in Quebec, as both the CPC and the NDP are cutting a swath through the former Liberal/BQ Federalist/Regional conflict.

The Reform Party knew it has to expand past its regional bloc. They came from Conservatives, Progressives and have rejoined and led the Conservative Party, to create abigger tent.

How different would Canada be with Proportional Rep? Well perhaps there would forever be a BQ representation.

.. but with 1st Past the Post and a small margin of voter change, the BQ can be reduced from a Formidable Block into a helpless Rump.

But Alas......

What has this got to do with Flaherty, McGuinty or Ontario.... Especially since Ontario Voters, Not Parties, rejected Proportional Rep.

[eyeball]

Choosing an Electoral system is neither a Right or Left Proposition.

I think choosing an electoral system is an Authoritarian Libertarian proposition. Representation largely reflects Canadians Right and Left alignments. The emergence of bloc parties seems to have more to do with the failings of our present electoral system.

What has this got to do with Flaherty, McGuinty or Ontario.... Especially since Ontario Voters, Not Parties, rejected Proportional Rep.

Ontario voters chose McGuinty to run Ontario. Flaherty is supposed to be working for Canadians in his capacity as Finance Minister. It appears he's working for his party however by picking a political fight in Ontario, presumably to impress a small number of voters in hopes they swing towards the Conservatives federally.

1st past the post locks the ruling party into a constant campaign for small margins at the expence of the rest of us. I'm talking about federal PR not provincial. Its unfortunate that Ontario rejected it.

As for getting voters to participate in a PR system, perhaps some sort of economic reward/punishment mechanism needs to be used, say a tax credit for showing up and a penalty for staying away. Perhaps this mechanism in our present system would better confine our representatives attention to their own bailiwicks. I doubt if voters inside these would be impressed if their representatives were mucking about in someone else's turf on someone else's dime.