bush_cheney2004 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Posted February 15, 2008 Speaking of spades...how many other people think Tony Blair was correct to praise Chretien's courage to say aloud what a lot of the West's leaders were thinking but didn't dare to say? What were all these leaders so afraid of do you think? What's wrong with this picture? Is this the same Chretien who wouldn't let Parliament talk about or vote before going to war (i.e. Kosovo or Afghanistan)? At least the American government actually voted on such policies! From Feb 2007: It is now five years since Canadian troops were first deployed to Afghanistan, entering from the outset into a combat position. Canada moved into a war in Afghanistan without any Parliamentary sanction or debate. The Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chretien engineered both an endorsement and accommodation to the American 'war on terror' by moving into Afghanistan without directly supporting the American invasion and occupation of Iraq. The policy was a classic case of Canada trying to have it both ways. The Canadian mission in Afghanistan was thus begun with neither wide discussion and even minimal accountability nor strategic thought. http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4880 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted February 15, 2008 Report Posted February 15, 2008 What's wrong with this picture? Is this the same Chretien who wouldn't let Parliament talk about or vote before going to war (i.e. Kosovo or Afghanistan)? At least the American government actually voted on such policies!From Feb 2007: It is now five years since Canadian troops were first deployed to Afghanistan, entering from the outset into a combat position. Canada moved into a war in Afghanistan without any Parliamentary sanction or debate. The Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chretien engineered both an endorsement and accommodation to the American 'war on terror' by moving into Afghanistan without directly supporting the American invasion and occupation of Iraq. The policy was a classic case of Canada trying to have it both ways. The Canadian mission in Afghanistan was thus begun with neither wide discussion and even minimal accountability nor strategic thought. http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=4880 Just about everything is wrong with this sordid mural alright. You know me though I think our involvement in your namesakes's war should be a matter of national referendum. 10$ says you'd draw the democratic line way farther away from the public than that however, wouldn't you? Hey did you see Harper coming to the defence of the Liberals the other day? EWWWWWW!!! how gross was that? I bet Harper is still trying to wash the taste out. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Posted February 15, 2008 Just about everything is wrong with this sordid mural alright. You know me though I think our involvement in your namesakes's war should be a matter of national referendum. 10$ says you'd draw the democratic line way farther away from the public than that however, wouldn't you? Then why would you reference the very man who prevented any such thing from happening? I can point to democratically elected representatives making the decisions for war and continued funding....you can't...not even for $10. Hey did you see Harper coming to the defence of the Liberals the other day? EWWWWWW!!! how gross was that? I bet Harper is still trying to wash the taste out. Well...yea...they're still trying to wash out the taste of Chretien. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Topaz Posted February 15, 2008 Report Posted February 15, 2008 Do you guys really think that if there had been a vote that the answer would have been any different? I don't think so. 9/11 just happened and world wanted someone to pay and the US kept saying they had to go into Afghanistan to get OBL. By the time Bush invaded Iraq, people were starting to mistrust Bush and what he was saying. Chretien was right by NOT going in to Iraq. Now Martin planned to only stay for 1 year but he didn't know at the time Harper would replace him and now the war belongs to Harper and he wants to stay to 2011 but I feel if he's still in the PMO he'll start a NEW misssion and Canadians will be there until the job is done or our troops number fall to nil! Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 15, 2008 Report Posted February 15, 2008 Do you guys really think that if there had been a vote that the answer would have been any different? I don't think so..... Probably not, but it is disingenuous to suddenly wake up and wonder how Canada ended up in Afghanistan with a combat mission, not the fairytale of "peacekeeping". Canada did not go to Iraq, and Chretien boasted proudly of his "correct" decision (although he would have gone with UNSC approval....curiously not needed to bomb Serbs). Afghanistan was held up as a shining example of following Canadian values and policy protocol with NATO. Now even that is causing a bit of squirming and second guessing. You can't blame Bush for everything. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted February 16, 2008 Report Posted February 16, 2008 (edited) On the other hand if it had been the public that voted to get involved the politicians and country likely wouldn't be faced with the humiliating spectacle currently confronting it. We're the ones's who would have to take responsibility for the things that sometimes go awry. Instead of flinging shit at each other in their desperation to either avoid or assign responsibility for things when they do go awry the politicians could focus on publicly representing and articulating what their constituents are saying and want prior to their constituents taking responsibilty for the final decision. I wonder if a public vote to commit to Afghanistan would have resulted in more government resources and attention being dedicated to it? It stands to reason that if the public really were responsible for the governments actions the government wouldn't be investing so much time and energy in managing or avoiding its public relations. If it could just focus on just doing its job and put straight information into the public's hands instead of partisan spin, the public could then make informed decisions and any adjustments to these if neccesarry. We're trying to help a people take ressponsibility for standing on their own feet by introducing them to democracy when we really don't have a clue what to do with it ourselves. We're trying to graft a horse and buggy era democracy onto a mideavil culture. Its no wonder things are so FUBAR. Edited February 16, 2008 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Topaz Posted February 26, 2008 Report Posted February 26, 2008 Has anyone been listening to the debates in the House of Commons? I listen to what McKay was saying and it reminded me of the way the US goes about talking about the Iraq war or the war on terrorism. The Cons keep talking about how bad the Taliban are and the way they treat their people. Question to all the countries there now. Where were you BEFORE 9/11? Does Canada know and can they show were all the millions of dollars we have given the government over there gone? It seems it hasn`t gone to the people who need it. I see another problem that we Candaians are going have to live with. It about being short troops and Canada not coughing up 1000 more of our own which will probably lead to the US to cover our as*** and I`m sure people like BC on here will never let us forget it.Canada has gone to Afghanistan to get OBL and since the US either refuses to get him or don`t want to find him, I think our time there should come to an end in 2011. We have lossed more soldiers than we did people in 9/11. Quote
M.Dancer Posted February 26, 2008 Report Posted February 26, 2008 We have lossed more soldiers than we did people in 9/11. So? What a ridiculous metric. Had we lost 300 lives during 9/11, would you want us to stay until we have lost 299 in Khandahar? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted February 26, 2008 Report Posted February 26, 2008 The Cons keep talking about how bad the Taliban are and the way they treat their people. By now you should already know just how the taliban treated thier own people, this is not something new, but i guess if you don't get to see the horror with your own eyes, it does not leave an impression....it does not send the same message to your brain....That is why everyone needs to be constantly reminded that these scumbags are just that Scumbags.... Does Canada know and can they show were all the millions of dollars we have given the government over there gone? It seems it hasn`t gone to the people who need it. What are you suggesting, that our Tax dollars have been diverted into someones pocket. Do you have proof that it has not gone to the people that needed it.... I see another problem that we Candaians are going have to live with. It about being short troops and Canada not coughing up 1000 more of our own which will probably lead to the US to cover our as*** and I`m sure people like BC on here will never let us forget it I'm curious is that what you think this is all about, Canada not having the troops to deploy, or getting our NATO friends to take more of an interest in the mission? And if i was BC i would'nt let sleeping dogs lay either....Canada has made a commitment, and at first it eagerly agreed and now, it finds any excuse it can not to support the mission....Now that we are all on the same page and the mission will continue to 2011, we should concentrate on what it takes to bring more of our troops home alive and well..... but once again we as a nation will bedate the shit of the unimportant things and our soldiers will be left to fend for themselfs.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
margrace Posted February 26, 2008 Report Posted February 26, 2008 (edited) By now you should already know just how the taliban treated thier own people, this is not something new, but i guess if you don't get to see the horror with your own eyes, it does not leave an impression....it does not send the same message to your brain....That is why everyone needs to be constantly reminded that these scumbags are just that Scumbags....What are you suggesting, that our Tax dollars have been diverted into someones pocket. Do you have proof that it has not gone to the people that needed it.... I'm curious is that what you think this is all about, Canada not having the troops to deploy, or getting our NATO friends to take more of an interest in the mission? And if i was BC i would'nt let sleeping dogs lay either....Canada has made a commitment, and at first it eagerly agreed and now, it finds any excuse it can not to support the mission....Now that we are all on the same page and the mission will continue to 2011, we should concentrate on what it takes to bring more of our troops home alive and well..... but once again we as a nation will bedate the shit of the unimportant things and our soldiers will be left to fend for themselfs.... Go to Bill Moyers interview of Sarah Chayes, an American Journalist working in Afghanistan, and see where the money does not go and where a lot of the money to Pakistan does go. Address http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02222008/transcript2.html Edited February 26, 2008 by margrace Quote
margrace Posted February 26, 2008 Report Posted February 26, 2008 Hmm thats interesting it changes the address. I wonder why? well go to google and type in Bill Moyers + Sarah Chayes, thats how I got it and I have in in my favourites Quote
eyeball Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 Debate? Pontification is more like it. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 ....And if i was BC i would'nt let sleeping dogs lay either....Canada has made a commitment, and at first it eagerly agreed and now, it finds any excuse it can not to support the mission.... Actually, Canada has exceeded my wildest expectations in Afghanistan, particularly since PM Harper took the watch. General Hillier has disabused any silly "peackeeping" notions from the minds of the pretenders. CENTCOM gave Canada credit early on for playing way above the rim given stripped down investment over the years. Canadian Forces have engaged and killed the enemy. The other night, I was watching the excellent Australian military court martial drama "Breaker Morant" (Boer War). Seems tha Aussies resented being shoved into the meat grinder for the throne while the British had the gall to question how they got things done. The point being, I do not want Canada feeling the same way about the United States efforts in the so called WoT. Stay in Afghanistan because it is in Canada's interest to do so....or leave for the same reason. As you correctly describe, the political problem is that A-stan was held up as the right mission and noble cause compared to reckless cowboys in Iraq searching for non-existent WMD. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Borg Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 We have lossed more soldiers than we did people in 9/11. Heck - according to Stats Can doctors kill more each year than we lost in 9/11 - they call it medical misdventure. Borg Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 ...We have lossed more soldiers than we did people in 9/11. Krikey...you should see what happened in the way of lossed (sic) soldiers during both world wars! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 General Hillier has disabused any silly "peackeeping" notions from the minds of the pretenders.As you correctly describe, the political problem is that A-stan was held up as the right mission and noble cause compared to reckless cowboys in Iraq searching for non-existent WMD. You really think so? I think pretending that 1000 more troops is all that's needed to get the milk and honey flowing is the silliest notion I've heard. Trading one meaningless deadline for another meaningless deadline is another. I suppose I'm also to believe that yet another western trained, funded and outfitted army in the region will somehow be a step forward. Speaking of which especially in the context of recklessness and Iraq... The United States is funding and in many cases arming the three ethnic factions in Iraq—the Kurds, the Shiites and the Sunni Arabs. These factions rule over partitioned patches of Iraqi territory and brutally purge rival ethnic groups from their midst. Iraq no longer exists as a unified state. It is a series of heavily armed fiefdoms run by thugs, gangs, militias, radical Islamists and warlords who are often paid wages of $300 a month by the U.S. military. Iraq is Yugoslavia before the storm. It is a caldron of weapons, lawlessness, hate and criminality that is destined to implode. And the current U.S. policy, born of desperation and defeat, means that when Iraq goes up, the U.S. military will have to scurry like rats for cover. Link Sweet. We'll be scurrying home too in a few years for pretty much the same reasons. What Afghanistan needs is for western colonialists to stop trying to...now how exactly did Bush put it the other day...oh yeah, I remember now, "divide people up inside their country". Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 (edited) You really think so? I think pretending that 1000 more troops is all that's needed to get the milk and honey flowing is the silliest notion I've heard. Trading one meaningless deadline for another meaningless deadline is another. I suppose I'm also to believe that yet another western trained, funded and outfitted army in the region will somehow be a step forward. Speaking of which especially in the context of recklessness and Iraq... It is certainly a step forward compared to doing nothing (a step backwards). A-stan was the good war, but the peacekeeping pretenders forgot that it was still a "war". What Afghanistan needs is for western colonialists to stop trying to...now how exactly did Bush put it the other day...oh yeah, I remember now, "divide people up inside their country". Hint: It's not all about what Afghanistan needs. Edited February 27, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
fellowtraveller Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 There is a very simple metric for judging the success or faliure of the United Nations approved mission by some 37 countries in Afghanistan. Measure the flow of refugees into or out of the country, and the direction they travel. Why? Because the women and children travel away from peril, not toward it. Some estimates have nearly four million Afghans returing to their homeland since 2002. When they start heading the other direction, I'll start listening to those who wish to abandon them. Quote The government should do something.
Topaz Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 So? What a ridiculous metric. Had we lost 300 lives during 9/11, would you want us to stay until we have lost 299 in Khandahar? From all the reports I have found online I don't think I saw that Canada lost 300 people but I do know that the US lost the most and to total of people lost was 2800+. For one thing we had no control over the lives lost on 9/11 BUT we DO in this war. Quote
M.Dancer Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 For one thing we had no control over the lives lost on 9/11 BUT we DO in this war. This is true. For every Taleban we eliminate from the fight there is a canadian and an afghan life saved. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Topaz Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 By now you should already know just how the taliban treated thier own people, this is not something new, but i guess if you don't get to see the horror with your own eyes, it does not leave an impression....it does not send the same message to your brain....That is why everyone needs to be constantly reminded that these scumbags are just that Scumbags....What are you suggesting, that our Tax dollars have been diverted into someones pocket. Do you have proof that it has not gone to the people that needed it.... I'm curious is that what you think this is all about, Canada not having the troops to deploy, or getting our NATO friends to take more of an interest in the mission? And if i was BC i would'nt let sleeping dogs lay either....Canada has made a commitment, and at first it eagerly agreed and now, it finds any excuse it can not to support the mission....Now that we are all on the same page and the mission will continue to 2011, we should concentrate on what it takes to bring more of our troops home alive and well..... but once again we as a nation will bedate the shit of the unimportant things and our soldiers will be left to fend for themselfs.... Army guy, just a suggestion go to www.skyreporter.com and read an inside going ons of Afghanistan through and read what Afghanis think about their own government and you will also find were some of the money is really going. Quote
Army Guy Posted February 27, 2008 Report Posted February 27, 2008 bush_cheney2004: Actually, Canada has exceeded my wildest expectations in Afghanistan, particularly since PM Harper took the watch. General Hillier has disabused any silly "peackeeping" notions from the minds of the pretenders. CENTCOM gave Canada credit early on for playing way above the rim given stripped down investment over the years. Canadian Forces have engaged and killed the enemy. Here is the pill that i find somewhat hard to choke down...Is some how our government has stomped it's feet putting conditions down on our continued support for this mission...which somehow takes away from everything we have down to date...it does not show leadership in my eyes , but clearly panders to the "finish the afgan mission now" piont of view....I will agree with eyeball that this extension means nothing, but a delay in the whole Afgan question... Our country has stated that it needs support in the south, it has on it's own, approached other NATO partners to get this support...and when very little was forth coming "then" it should have shown leadership, expected of a G-8 nation, a NATO allied, and offered an increased commitment. leading by example....Although an increase of 1000 troops would put additional strain on our armed forces, it would send a clear signal to other bigger G-8 nations, or newer NATO allieds...It would also re affirm our present allieds that we support them and are in this for the long haul. Topaz: Army guy, just a suggestion go to www.skyreporter.com and read an inside going ons of Afghanistan through and read what Afghanis think about their own government and you will also find were some of the money is really going. I looked at your site, it is interesting, even somewhat educational...but it makes me wonder if they have the proof then why has no charges been filed or anyone asked to resigned....And yet i will not say that it does not go on...shit even here in Canada we have investagations ongoing at the ex PM level...try mentioning a government contract and watch the price inflate over night....What i do know is that Millions are being poured into afgan infra structure, i've seen these projects, gaurded this projects, engaged the bad guys at this projects....projects like repairing dam's, building new paved highways, digging irrigation ditchs, wells, it cost major money here to do anything... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 28, 2008 Report Posted February 28, 2008 Our country has stated that it needs support in the south, it has on it's own, approached other NATO partners to get this support...and when very little was forth coming "then" it should have shown leadership, expected of a G-8 nation, a NATO allied, and offered an increased commitment. leading by example.... Agreed, but the request and associated Manley Report comes off as pure domestic politics to the outside world. PM Harper gets to have his cake and eat it too. Canada really isn't going anywhere soon despite all the posturing. The PMO has made no qualms about invigorating Canada's role as a "middle power" for a respected "place at the table". As odd as it may seem, Canada will remain on point in A-stan just to prove it can. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted March 2, 2008 Report Posted March 2, 2008 There is a very simple metric for judging the success or faliure of the United Nations approved mission by some 37 countries in Afghanistan.Measure the flow of refugees into or out of the country, and the direction they travel. What about the tens of thousands every year that defect from the US to North Korea and Cuba? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Topaz Posted March 2, 2008 Report Posted March 2, 2008 Last week a US Intel. official said that Karzai control 30%,Taliban 10% and the rest of Afg. is under tribal control. The US NATO said Gen. Jones that if urgent changes are made that Afg. was going to become a fail state. The US has been there for 6 years and Canada too and how close is there peace. As someone told me, the British fought there for 100 years and lost, the Russians lost, why does the west think they can win this tribal war???? Quote
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