Debate over Afghanistan

[jbg]

As someone told me, the British fought there for 100 years and lost, the Russians lost, why does the west think they can win this tribal war????

You may have a good point but even a failed state relishes some freedom of operation. The threat is that if they don't keep their failiure to themselves, internalized, the West will impose order to keep us out of harm's way.

[eyeball]

You may have a good point but even a failed state relishes some freedom of operation. The threat is that if they don't keep their failiure to themselves, internalized, the West will impose order to keep us out of harm's way.

This is completely wrong. It underscores the failure, probably deliberate, of the west's ability to attribute its imposition of order throughout the region via the Cold War, as being the root cause of the externalization of the conflict, like on 9/11 for example.

Last week a US Intel. official said that Karzai control 30%,Taliban 10% and the rest of Afg. is under tribal control. The US NATO said Gen. Jones that if urgent changes are made that Afg. was going to become a fail state. The US has been there for 6 years and Canada too and how close is there peace. As someone told me, the British fought there for 100 years and lost, the Russians lost, why does the west think they can win this tribal war????

Not all the west thinks this, its mostly just its right wing that does. Like their war on drugs, and the Cold War, its their idea of social engineering. I expect they'll sneer at that characterization but its entirely apt.

Anyway, speaking of metrics and other indicators of reality, according to a G&M story this weekend it sounds like most of the aid agencies have cut and run from Kandahar, the number of "security incidents" had tripled in the last 2 years, police corruption and intimidation is up along with opium production. The story certainly paints a less than rosy picture, a lot less rosier than what the government has been telling us.

I just do not understand why supporters of our involvment in Afghanistan are being so tepid in their estimates of what's really needed to turn things around. NATO sent 40,000 troops into Kosovo 8 years ago, an area 1/4 the size of Kandahar. A 1/3 of these are still in Kosovo, where there's never even been an insurgency. If this is any metric to go by, Kandahar alone should have something like 160,000 troops or more. All we're accomplishing is to piss people off, the insurgency is growing and its recruiting people with greivances against everything from extortion and intimidation from their own government to deaths due to western military strikes. The idea that a surge of 1000 troops will do the trick is laughable.

The rights fawing faith in the US is what's really going to bite us in the end though. Its clear it has no issue at all with the west's past policies. Its patently obvious that many posters around here think the support of dictatorships in the name of the Cold War was not only a justifiable policy they think it was a really good idea, they seem genuinely proud of it in fact. Why is that Starship Troopers attitude that people like Army Guy and Morris display in forums like this so absent in the Parliaments of Canada or our NATO partners? The British used to have that and even Canada was able to muster this up in living memory. Why not now?

The right-wing's idea that its somehow keeping the west out of harm's way is what's really scary and I think we stepped squarely into it where we didn't have to. I have no doubt whatsoever that Canada will be whacked one day, BECAUSE we're in Afghanistan. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

[bush_cheney2004]

The right-wing's idea that its somehow keeping the west out of harm's way is what's really scary and I think we stepped squarely into it where we didn't have to. I have no doubt whatsoever that Canada will be whacked one day, BECAUSE we're in Afghanistan. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

No doubt, as your post exemplifies a belief that only the "right-wing" is to be blamed for Canada's, indeed the entire "West's", foreign adventures. In fact, it was an honor for the same people to die for "left-wing" causes, in the name of human rights and the "responsibility to protect". So the good news is you are only half right...and half wrong.

[eyeball]

No doubt, as your post exemplifies a belief that only the "right-wing" is to be blamed for Canada's, indeed the entire "West's", foreign adventures. In fact, it was an honor for the same people to die for "left-wing" causes, in the name of human rights and the "responsibility to protect". So the good news is you are only half right...and half wrong.

I have no doubt there has been the odd moment where the west got it right but unfortunately the bad will stemming from the number if times the west got it wrong is far more enduring.

This so-called "responsibility to protect" was never anything more than the usual front the military-industrial complex has always used in concert with the tactic of scaring the rubes into believing the big bad commies were coming. Now its terrorists and Islamofascists. Its no different than the thin blue-line scenario that's used to frighten people into believing we always need more cops. Classic conservatism at its very worst.

[bush_cheney2004]

I have no doubt there has been the odd moment where the west got it right but unfortunately the bad will stemming from the number if times the west got it wrong is far more enduring.

No, according to your position, the "West" has NEVER "gotten it right" if pissing off the locals be the measure of success. The "West" cannot be conveniently parsed into "right-wing" and "left-wing" if the true issue is unacceptable expeditions beyond a nation's borders. Hell, it doesn't even work for analysis of detrimental domestic policies for so called "visible minorities".

This so-called "responsibility to protect" was never anything more than the usual front the military-industrial complex has always used in concert with the tactic of scaring the rubes into believing the big bad commies were coming. Now its terrorists and Islamofascists. Its no different than the thin blue-line scenario that's used to frighten people into believing we always need more cops. Classic conservatism at its very worst.

No, the concept was cultivated (particularly in Canada) to specifically distance such policies from the larger issue of fighting commies. Politically, Canada just needed a different, more righteous reason to kill the enemy. The Americans are not such high maintenance (that way).

[eyeball]

Its your side that's done all the parsing about taking responsibility. The Americans are tailor made for being cannon fodder because of their emphasis on nationalistic patriotism, the lack of which in Canada has always given you right-wingers gas. When are you people going to finally get serious about your convictions and start rounding up all us leftists anyway? Bring it on, I dare you. Sneering references to "those on the left" or "the loony left" is only going to make me laugh all the harder.

Your typical Canadian is obviously far more astute about geo-politics than your typical American. We're a tad more astute about the character of right-wingers too I suspect. Right-wingers are all show and no go, they always have been and they always will be.

[bush_cheney2004]

...When are you people going to finally get serious about your convictions and start rounding up all us leftists anyway? Bring it on, I dare you. Sneering references to "those on the left" or "the loony left" is only going to make me laugh all the harder.

The record shows that it was the "left" who actually "rounded up" visible minorities, and, for instance, fully supported residential schools. It's one thing to abhor any such policies, but to only indict the "right-wing" (whatever that means), only underminds your position.

Your typical Canadian is obviously far more astute about geo-politics than your typical American. We're a tad more astute about the character of right-wingers too I suspect. Right-wingers are all show and no go, they always have been and they always will be.

OK...but I guess such a "typical" Canadian didn't vote in the last election, wherein the "left" was turfed for corruption. The far left has never held a majority, and probably never will. They shall remain marginalized by the very economic system they gobble in while burping protests.

[eyeball]

The record shows that it was the "left" who actually "rounded up" visible minorities, and, for instance, fully supported residential schools. It's one thing to abhor any such policies, but to only indict the "right-wing" (whatever that means), only underminds your position.

Actually the record shows that its authoritarians who fully support rounding people up, there is a whole other axis on the political compass that you appear completely blind to.

In any case as GK Chesterton said, "the whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." In the context of residential schools, I notice you right-wingers would rather die than apologize to native people for 100 years of colonialist rape and theft. I think this helps explain why you guys so blithely gloss over the root causes of today's conflicts.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." In the context of residential schools, I notice you right-wingers would rather die than apologize to native people for 100 years of colonialist rape and theft. I think this helps explain why you guys so blithely gloss over the root causes of today's conflicts.

Why would Conservatives apologize for the obvious and continuing mistakes of Progressives? Progressives think they have the luxury of social experiments conducted under the protective socio-economic umbrella provided by others. I can'r speak for First Nations in Canada, but the least thing American natives want is an "apology" for the obvious. But Progressives swoon over such things, as if it means anything at all. They really get excited about "truth commissions".

Canada is in Afghanistan, put there by the "authoritarians" elected by the citizenry. Until the Progressives can do at least as well, I guess growing ponytails and protesting will just have to do.

Edited March 2, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[eyeball]

Why would Conservatives apologize for the obvious and continuing mistakes of Progressives?

Its bad enough that you conservatives refuse to apologize for the mistakes of authoritarians, but your propensity for compounding them is far worse.

[bush_cheney2004]

Its bad enough that you conservatives refuse to apologize for the mistakes of authoritarians, but your propensity for compounding them is far worse.

OK...I'll play along. Please explain why "authoritarians" still prevail over "progressives" in the face of such obvious "compound" mistakes? Don't the progressives have to apologize too?

Meanwhile, back in Afghanistan, the Taliban "progressives" don't give a rip about apologies from either one.

Do progressives thrive on others' guilt?

[eyeball]

A couple of things before we play, I don't regard Canada as being a particularily democratic country, the US is a far more potentially democratic place in my opinion. I also regard the government as being the single biggest impediment to my economic fortune and well being. Its in my way just about every which way I turn and most people I know feel much the same way. My answer is to empower local government to the greatest extent possible. I'd also take the sort of measures to secure the public's domain against the abuse of power that would make an authoritarian blush. I'd outlaw any and all official secrecy, chip the politicians with GPS, cameras and microphones and hard-wire these to the Internet.

Finally, just so you know, I run my own business and I opted out of the government's unemployment benefit scheme a long time ago. Some lefty eh?

Authoritarians seek to prevail over everyone. Earlier you wrote;

No doubt, as your post exemplifies a belief that only the "right-wing" is to be blamed for Canada's, indeed the entire "West's", foreign adventures.

Oh I'm quite certain the world is a far more nuanced place than the simple left and right axis which is clearly the least important one. That said I think authoritarianism has found a far better vehicle for expansion in capitalism than it ever did in communism. I certainly don't think that's something to be proud of. Considering how much the right likes to take responsibility for ALL the triumph of the west's capitalism over communism however, its not surprising they align so easily with aggressive capitalist expansion and any foreign adventures that help further this. Nor is it surprising in the least for the right to blame any and all mistakes as being the fault of the left. The right never admits its wrong, ever.

You talked about Canadians being more high-maintenance than Americans. Do you mean in terms of the right having something to apologize for in Canada? It must really chafe to have to watch Conservatives tone down the rhetoric. What are you so afraid of? You apes want to live forever?

[bush_cheney2004]

....My answer is to empower local government to the greatest extent possible. I'd also take the sort of measures to secure the public's domain against the abuse of power that would make an authoritarian blush. I'd outlaw any and all official secrecy, chip the politicians with GPS, cameras and microphones and hard-wire these to the Internet.

Why yes, that would be very progressive.

Finally, just so you know, I run my own business and I opted out of the government's unemployment benefit scheme a long time ago. Some lefty eh?

Quite irrelevant....drug dealers do the same.

Authoritarians seek to prevail over everyone.

Hmmmm...this is problematic in a constitutional democarcy. Progressives can only achieve the same goal under socialism/communism.

Oh I'm quite certain the world is a far more nuanced place than the simple left and right axis which is clearly the least important one. That said I think authoritarianism has found a far better vehicle for expansion in capitalism than it ever did in communism. I certainly don't think that's something to be proud of. Considering how much the right likes to take responsibility for ALL the triumph of the west's capitalism over communism however, its not surprising they align so easily with aggressive capitalist expansion and any foreign adventures that help further this. Nor is it surprising in the least for the right to blame any and all mistakes as being the fault of the left. The right never admits its wrong, ever.

Correct...winning the "war" means never having to say you're sorry. The commies lost, and the progressives are just parasites on the back of what defeated them. Blame and apologies are meaningless...except to the progressive mind seeking to fix all that is wrong in the world, a world that mocks and confounds progressive objectives with human nature and choices both "good" and "bad".

You talked about Canadians being more high-maintenance than Americans. Do you mean in terms of the right having something to apologize for in Canada? It must really chafe to have to watch Conservatives tone down the rhetoric. What are you so afraid of? You apes want to live forever?

Yes....it's a fair trade....tolerating smug and superior feeling progressives spouting off about peace and justice in exchange for getting most of the bananas.

[eyeball]

Blame and apologies are meaningless...except to the progressive mind seeking to fix all that is wrong in the world, a world that mocks and confounds progressive objectives with human nature and choices both "good" and "bad".

Yes....it's a fair trade....tolerating smug and superior feeling progressives spouting off about peace and justice in exchange for getting most of the bananas.

Oh well you're doing a bang up job of pursuing your conservative objectives there Sport. Just don't blame me for it when it blows up in your face okay? You bought it so you own it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh well you're doing a bang up job of pursuing your conservative objectives there Sport. Just don't blame me for it when it blows up in your face okay? You bought it so you own it.

This aspect of the discussion seems very important to you. I shall never "blame you", even as you live and prosper in the very system that you rail against. I am not interested in the passion of your arguments, your feelings, or your hunger for peace and justice. Ponytail protests from those with progressive "vision" are the most self serving of all.

"Owning it" is precisely the objective.

[M.Dancer]

As someone told me, the British fought there for 100 years and lost,........

You really should stop listening to people who haven't a clue in the world.

[Oleg Bach]

You really should stop listening to people who haven't a clue in the world.

What clue do you need other than opium production going up instead of down after Canadian involvement. Imagine if the opium was destroyed and the "enemy" had no way to finance their weaponry? Boy - it would be sad all around..the western weapons dealers would have to get real jobs...But I guess murdering stupid white boys from rural Ontario..don't matter - if they are so foolish as to believe in the "cause" - then the loss of their genetics will be a plus..sad though - duping what is left of the old white Christian race and letting them become road kill in AFGHANISTAN...Oh yah....these "armoured" vehicles that seem to come apart at the seams with even a small road side bomb..talk about inferiour equipment - wonder if Shriber and that former leader had anything to do with the purchase of these cheap tin cans on wheels that offer little or no protection？

[Topaz]

You really should stop listening to people who haven't a clue in the world.

What make you think that NATO can beat the people fighting in Afg.? There's only two ways to end this war, peace talks, which the Taliban has said only after the US and NATO leaves or bomb the hell out of the country and kill everyone. The Taliban is going to increase the pressure and more Canadians will die for the roadside bombs and soon Canada will have to withdrawal when our numbers drop. OR are we going to stay there until all the Canadian is dead?

[M.Dancer]

What make you think that NATO can beat the people fighting in Afg.? There's only two ways to end this war, peace talks, which the Taliban has said only after the US and NATO leaves or bomb the hell out of the country and kill everyone. The Taliban is going to increase the pressure and more Canadians will die for the roadside bombs and soon Canada will have to withdrawal when our numbers drop. OR are we going to stay there until all the Canadian is dead?

I wonder if there is a point discussing this with someone who thinks the British have fought the afghans for 100 years.....suffice to say, the Taleban once controlled 100% of the country, now less than 15%.....I assume the math isn't as hard as history for you.

[M.Dancer]

NATO sent 40,000 troops into Kosovo 8 years ago, an area 1/4 the size of Kandahar. A 1/3 of these are still in Kosovo, where there's never even been an insurgency.

The main problem with pulling facts from your ass is they tend to be shitty.

Lets look closely....

1/3 of the force remains in Kosovo----wrong. There are less than 5000 UN personal there, mainly police.

There has never been an Insurgency.----Wrong and dishonest. There was an insurgency, the PKK who fought the serbs....the UN Military force in Kosovo were there as a deterent against the Serbs...

[Oleg Bach]

I wonder if there is a point discussing this with someone who thinks the British have fought the afghans for 100 years.....suffice to say, the Taleban once controlled 100% of the country, now less than 15%.....I assume the math isn't as hard as history for you.

Forget the technical points and pointing out that he made a mistake with the numbers..what are you? The king of bureaucratic laywership? A marshal arts type said to me once.. that the best move - the best defence is to leave the scene of violence or potential violence...in other words run ....If you think that the Taliban are going to chase you down all the way to Toronto or Montreal if you leave--- you're nuts. This whole attitude is based in a penisless attitude born in spoiled modernity...they are dope growing goat herders for God's sake..they just want to run their own mafia instead of being taken over by ours!

I saw great hypocracy as far as honest intent is concerned when it comes to doing the right thing ...along the Queen Street strip in Toronto - there was a police sweep..where uniformed officers went from bar room to bar room making sure that the wait staff had their smart serve papers- in the mean time they ignored the cocaine that was encrusting the nostrils and carpets of these dope dens..what the hell is wrong with you people...if you are going to wage war..wage it here on our home front ...where dope has created third world conditions...but...I guess economy is all important...even if it destroys our youth. Barak Obama has got it right..to end the affair in Iraq and use the money to heal our own domestic injured...what good society can justify spending billions on adventurism to amuse a few powerful idots...and ignore poverty and debachery at home?

[eyeball]

The main problem with pulling facts from your ass is they tend to be shitty.

Lets look closely....

1/3 of the force remains in Kosovo----wrong. There are less than 5000 UN personal there, mainly police.

There has never been an Insurgency.----Wrong and dishonest. There was an insurgency, the PKK who fought the serbs....the UN Military force in Kosovo were there as a deterent against the Serbs...

As I mentioned I pulled these facts from the Globe and Mail.

For rough comparison, NATO sent 40,000 troops into Kosovo — a place roughly one-quarter the size of Kandahar and with no active insurgency in 1999. More than one-third of them are still there eight years later. In fact, NATO has five times as many troops deployed in Kosovo as Canada has in Kandahar.

Source

Lets see. 2500 x 5 = 12500. 40000 / 12500 = 3.2 or a little more than a third. Go figure.

I'll think take the Globe's version of reality over your's any day of the week.

[Oleg Bach]

As I mentioned I pulled these facts from the Globe and Mail.

Lets see. 2500 x 5 = 12500. 40000 / 12500 = 3.2 or a little more than a third. Go figure.

I'll think take the Globe's version of reality over your's any day of the week.

Silly - you are crunching numbers and people are dying? Talk about the great disconnect...kind of reminds me of the mentality of the average urban westerner...saw a mini hurst the other night..on the side were the words "Pets At Peace" - It was a crematorial service for god damned dogs...a small black station wagon as if it would carry a doggy coffin..as if the dead mutt would be laying on his back with his paws crossed over his hairy chest...It appears that as we grant more rights to filthy animals - that our human rights become less and more like those of a dog. My point is - we are so far removed from real human rights and devine human dignity that this insanity that is Afghanistan and Iraq...has turned into a numbers game. This is a major deteroration taking place of common sense - dogs are held higher and given more dignity than children and our young men in the flower of their youth die like dogs and are numbered and dehumanized - shame on all of you for not demanding human rights for yourselves..but as most of you will emotionalized "I just feel for the lonely dog" - but to hell with the humans..those in favour of Afghanistan are probably in favour of saving Pit Bulls that rip the faces off your own children.

[M.Dancer]

As I mentioned I pulled these facts from the Globe and Mail.

Lets see. 2500 x 5 = 12500. 40000 / 12500 = 3.2 or a little more than a third. Go figure.

I'll think take the Globe's version of reality over your's any day of the week.

I stand corrected....I went by the UN forces instead of the UN/NATO mission (Kfor) .

There are 13,523 NATO troops in Kosovo who stand as a deterent against the Serbs.

[eyeball]

Silly - you are crunching numbers and people are dying? Talk about the great disconnect...

So when politicians spend weeks and weeks throwing the number 1000 around I'm supposed to take this as a deep connection to something? How does that scan?