#1 Reason Why Islam Is Dangerous: Illiteracy

[Kitchener]

I concur Oleg, the Koran is written like a "War/Sex Manual". It teachs it's followers how to wage a war and win. Women and children aren't human were demons in the Koran. Even in polite society Muslims refuse to address violence in the name of Allah or Sharia Law. Watch the following video. Note they refuse to condemn the stoning of women.

Link: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019530.php

So, by "they", you don't mean Muslims -- you mean at most three Muslims. But one of the three says she was "shocked" to hear another Muslim state that stoning should be understood as basic Islamic law; and both she and another one of the three explicitly acknowledge a crucial distinction between what was Islamic law in the old days, and what it ought to be today.

I'd prefer to hear more voices within the Islamic community speaking out critically of Islamic fundamentalism, much as I've long wanted to hear the moderate Christian majority speaking out against fundamentalist homophobes, young-Earth creationists, and the like. Yet apart from the social pressures against self-criticism that one finds in any group, there are many grossly prejudiced anti-Islamic folks in American society these days -- people ready to misrepresent and misinterpret facts in support of their biases. I don't know anything about this Bedier fellow except what I've seen on the video, but I don't blame him for wanting to avoid giving critical soundbites that could be used against other Muslims by such unprincipled commentators, politicians, and internet posters -- nor for not wanting to dance on their string just because they'd like to hear him recite their script.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Kitchener

[Higgly]

Actually I do but your citation is irrelevant. Functional Literacy is defined as being able to communicate (read and write) in every day situations. IE it is a basic level of literacy.

What you have linked to is a study that measures literacy in english....

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and further, while the report says that 21% of adults in their study operate at the lowest level...

And the reason for the poor showing goes back to the English question.

It does not categorically say that 21% of American are illiterate and given that the survey is heavily skewed with non anglophones, no wonder.

That would be like holding the same survey measuring english literacy....in Quebec.

Like I said, you might want to re read ....

OMG! What he said! Let's play Bigot for a Day!

[sharkman]

Oh...I think the Muslims could cough up a few trillion if they so wanted. Aren't they the ones with big pools of both oil and greenbacks? Seems they can build structures like the Burj al-Arab and Palm Island...a few public schools should be no problemo...

The trouble I have with education in these areas is I can't help wonder if we would be providing a secular education or a religious one. (?)

This of course fails to see that the countries involved would not accept help in educating their children, they'd rather they have none.

[DogOnPorch]

This of course fails to see that the countries involved would not accept help in educating their children, they'd rather they have none.

I'm not sure I follow...

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[kuzadd]

I concur Oleg, the Koran is written like a "War/Sex Manual". It teachs it's followers how to wage a war and win. Women and children aren't human were demons in the Koran. Even in polite society Muslims refuse to address violence in the name of Allah or Sharia Law. Watch the following video. Note they refuse to condemn the stoning of women.

Link: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019530.php

Snippet: Bedier also tries to excuse stoning by noting that Islamic law prescribes it for both men and women, and that four witnesses are needed to establish the crime, with 70 lashes for a false accusation (actually eighty, cf. Qur'an 24:4). He portrays this as a virtually unattainable evidentiary standard, but in practice that is not the case under Sharia. With eight women awaiting death by stoning in Iranian prisons as of last September, will Bedier condemn the practice outright?

have you read the Koran?

highly doubtful!

[JB Globe]

"2.65": And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

"2.66": So We made them an example to those who witnessed it and those who came after it, and an admonition to those who guard (against evil).

You realize that it's talking about the Book of Exodus, right? Check out the verse before yours:

2.63 - And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): “Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah.”

You do remember what happened on Sinai, right? Moses went up, got the Commandments, and came back down to find his people worshiping idols. THAT is what these passages are referring to.

I mean really - do you really think you can cut and paste the Qu'ran to suit your needs? Do you really think that you can take passages completely out of context?

You essentially tried to make those statements seem as if they were some general statement against Jews, period. When in fact it was part of the Islamic version of Exodus and it was referring specifically to those Jews which practiced idolatry at the foot of Mount Sinai

I mean really - this is an old trick of folks who are trying to twist Islam - both fundamentalist Muslims and Islamophobes alike. You really have more in common than you'd like to think.

[JB Globe]

I concur Oleg, the Koran is written like a "War/Sex Manual". It teachs it's followers how to wage a war and win. Women and children aren't human were demons in the Koran. Even in polite society Muslims refuse to address violence in the name of Allah or Sharia Law. Watch the following video. Note they refuse to condemn the stoning of women.

Link: http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019530.php

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't I make a post about how Jews are evil and use "Jewsareevil.com" as my source - it'll be airtight!

[kuzadd]

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't I make a post about how Jews are evil and use "Jewsareevil.com" as my source - it'll be airtight!

[DogOnPorch]

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't I make a post about how Jews are evil and use "Jewsareevil.com" as my source - it'll be airtight!

Interesting interview. Nobody seemed to want to say anything about the 1000lb gorilla jumping up and down...lol.. For those too afraid to look....it is an interview with CAIR's Ahmed Bedier as well as a few other notable Muslims and CAIR supporters. Hardly hate speech...but the site (Jihad Watch) is, indeed, anything but neutral. But as long as one is aware of that.....

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The nation of Dubai banned the movie Charlie's Angles because it's "offensive to the religion of Islam." Apparently, the religion of Islam is offended by anything without a plot.

---Jon Stewart

[DogOnPorch]

You realize that it's talking about the Book of Exodus, right? Check out the verse before yours:

2.63 - And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (The towering height) of Mount (Sinai) : (Saying): “Hold firmly to what We have given you and bring (ever) to remembrance what is therein: Perchance ye may fear Allah.”

You do remember what happened on Sinai, right? Moses went up, got the Commandments, and came back down to find his people worshiping idols. THAT is what these passages are referring to.

I mean really - do you really think you can cut and paste the Qu'ran to suit your needs? Do you really think that you can take passages completely out of context?

I'd have to say that I suscribe to Existentialism as a 'faith'...so I don't believe in any of that stuff and feel free to cut and paste as I choose. If this is a point of difference between you and I...that's too bad. I'm sure some would agree with you, though.

You essentially tried to make those statements seem as if they were some general statement against Jews, period. When in fact it was part of the Islamic version of Exodus and it was referring specifically to those Jews which practiced idolatry at the foot of Mount Sinai

Is it now? How's God doing these days anyways?

I mean really - this is an old trick of folks who are trying to twist Islam - both fundamentalist Muslims and Islamophobes alike. You really have more in common than you'd like to think.

Oh, yawn...yea olde "the monster is YOU" guilt trip. I wonder how many car bombings there were lately?

Feel free to point out the non-religiously and/or sectarian motivated cases.

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The author of the Satanic Verses book, which is against Islam, the Prophet and the Qu'ran, and all those involved in its publication who were aware of its content, are sentenced to death. I ask all Muslims to execute them wherever they find them.

---Grand Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini

[Moxie]

Mock the source as much as you like, but these people's words speak for themselves. Refusing to condemn the stoning of women as unacceptable and yet they screech and bawl and pound their fist in condemnation when someone draws a picture of Mo. Talk about twisted ideology.

[jbg]

I just found this and it's on topic. Excerpts below (link to article):

Islam: 'Poverty, ignorance, gender inequality' the main problems for Muslims

Rome, 15 Jan. (AKI) - Too many Muslims around the world believe that the Islamic faith is under threat when the real problems facing Muslims are poverty, ignorance and gender inequality.

This is the view of Indian Muslim author and respected newspaper editor M.J. Akbar, who is in Rome to present the Italian translation of his bestseller Blood Brothers.

"The three problems of Islam are not Bush, Blair and Berlusconi, but poverty, ignorance and gender inequality," said Akbar, speaking at the launch of his book, Fratelli di Sangue, at the Rome headquarters of leading Italian news agency Adnkronos.

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[JB Globe]

I'd have to say that I suscribe to Existentialism as a 'faith'...so I don't believe in any of that stuff and feel free to cut and paste as I choose.

What a cop-out.

So, you made a blatantly wrong statement about how Muslims interpret the Qu'ran, and misrepresented passages in the Qu'ran in an effort to make it seem anti-semetic.

And now you're claiming that somehow, being an atheist gets you out of the same standards of debate that apply to us all? How is that any different than saying "Well, I'm not white, so that means that I don't have to back up my statement that "all white people are the devil" with factual evidence" - ???

Both are examples of someone using their faith or race as a cheap (and ineffective) way of backing up ignorant, uninformed opinions, with facts.

Sounds like someone's too much of a coward to face me in an academic debate.

If that's the case, fine, but if you're going to post garbage, expect to be called on it, and don't run away next time

[DogOnPorch]

So, you made a blatantly wrong statement about how Muslims interpret the Qu'ran, and misrepresented passages in the Qu'ran in an effort to make it seem anti-semetic.

By all means, read the whole thing...I gave my link.

http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/HolKora.html

And now you're claiming that somehow, being an atheist gets you out of the same standards of debate that apply to us all? How is that any different than saying "Well, I'm not white, so that means that I don't have to back up my statement that "all white people are the devil" with factual evidence" - ???

Existentialist, thanks. If there's a God out there...he/she/it doesn't care about us monkeys. Evolution helps those that help themselves.

Both are examples of someone using their faith or race as a cheap (and ineffective) way of backing up ignorant, uninformed opinions, with facts.

OK...next time I'll post the entire Koran. Do you think zee mods will get pissed?

Sounds like someone's too much of a coward to face me in an academic debate.

See above.

If that's the case, fine, but if you're going to post garbage, expect to be called on it, and don't run away next time

The Koran is garbage? Perhaps. But so are the other books requiering belief in the supernatural. Run away? I usually manage to drop by at least once a day if I'm in the mood.

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Gazing up into the darkness I saw myself as a creature driven and derided by vanity; and my eyes burned with anguish and anger.

---James Joyce, "Araby"

Edited January 20, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Oh...and btw...I'm not "sharkman". Just in case you're confused.

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Krusty:Did you send those thousand roses to Bea Arthur's grave?

Assistant: But she's not...

Krusty: I don't want to hear the end of any sentances!

[Guest American Woman]

Have you looked at US literacy rates? Get a grip.

While you're looking at the U.S., and I'm assuming you mean illiteracy rates, don't forget to look in your own backyard:

Nearly half of Canadians lack reading skills: report

Edited to add:

1 in 5 are functionally illiterate in America. And that is a conservative estimate. A cursory search will provide all the evidence you need. To site Wikipedia and the CIA as evidence of literacy is to include comic books and pictographs as reading material.

Ditto the above for you, Jazzer.

M. Dancer is correct. The statistics are referring to literacy/functional literacy in English. We have a large population of non-English speaking people at any given time, same as in Canada.

Edited January 20, 2008 by American Woman

[jbg]

M. Dancer is correct. The statistics are referring to literacy/functional literacy in English. We have a large population of non-English speaking people at any given time, same as in Canada.

Most Canadians read and write in Canadian, not English.

[M.Dancer]

Most Canadians read and write in Canadian, not English.

You know, that sort of pillockism gets old and boring very fast.

[jazzer]

While you're looking at the U.S., and I'm assuming you mean illiteracy rates, don't forget to look in your own backyard:

Nearly half of Canadians lack reading skills: report

Edited to add:

Ditto the above for you, Jazzer.

M. Dancer is correct. The statistics are referring to literacy/functional literacy in English. We have a large population of non-English speaking people at any given time, same as in Canada.

I never said Canada doesn't have a illiteracy problem. I was merely pointing out the error made by the poster I was responding to.

[Moxie]

I don't believe lack of education was a factor in the September 11 attack on the US. All the hyjackers had an education, the Doctors in Scotland had an education. In fact most of the suicide bombers are highly educated, so their inability to read wasn't the cause for their Radical beliefs.

I believe the teachings of the Koran are the cause of Muslim violence, if one hasn't read this book they should. It's nothing but violence, revenge and child sex to spice up the boring bits. Blaming poverty and education is just a red herring to hide the fact that the very Teachings of the Koran are the cause of Islamic Violence. The koran was written during a time of barbarity and war and violence. For Muslims to follow the literal teachings of the Koran they must wage war on Non-Muslims as Allah instructed them to.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't believe lack of education was a factor in the September 11 attack on the US. All the hyjackers had an education, the Doctors in Scotland had an education. In fact most of the suicide bombers are highly educated, so their inability to read wasn't the cause for their Radical beliefs.

I believe the teachings of the Koran are the cause of Muslim violence, if one hasn't read this book they should. It's nothing but violence, revenge and child sex to spice up the boring bits. Blaming poverty and education is just a red herring to hide the fact that the very Teachings of the Koran are the cause of Islamic Violence. The koran was written during a time of barbarity and war and violence. For Muslims to follow the literal teachings of the Koran they must wage war on Non-Muslims as Allah instructed them to.

You're scapegoating, Moxie.

There are plenty of groups that commit violence without the Koran, and plenty of Muslims who don't misinterpret the Koran.

This has all been pointed out before, as well.

[M.Dancer]

I never said Canada doesn't have a illiteracy problem. I was merely pointing out the error made by the poster I was responding to.

There ws no error. The proof you cited was irrelevant for reason already shown. America nad Canada have near 100% basic literacy.

[JB Globe]

Stop dancing . . .

Why did you claim a passage in the Qu'ran was calling Jews in general "apes" when in fact it was referring to those specific Jews who practiced idolatry during Moses' absence as he ascended Mount Sinai?

Why did you take a passage completely out of its historical and literary context?

Did you do this because you have no actual learned or lived knowledge of Islam and therefor didn't even realize what the passage was talking about? Or because you're distorting facts to fit your anti-religious/anti-Islamic agenda?

Which one is it?

And I'm sorry, but when you're debating a religion in an secular, academic context, your religious/non-religious orientation doesn't matter. Just like if we were in an African studies class, it wouldn't matter what our ethnic background was - what matters is your argument.

[JB Globe]

I don't believe lack of education was a factor in the September 11 attack on the US. All the hyjackers had an education, the Doctors in Scotland had an education. In fact most of the suicide bombers are highly educated, so their inability to read wasn't the cause for their Radical beliefs.

Of course, that's not the whole picture. In order for any terrorist group to function, they have to recieve support from a portion of a country's population. In countries where terrorism is most active, this comes from people who are, a - oppressed in some way, and b - uneducated. It's this support which allows them to operate - if searches are being conducted, they have sympathizers willing to hide them, people willing to form a supply chain for things like materials to make explosives so that the various ingredients don't look like they're being purchased by the same individual, etc.

It's no coincidence that the countries with the most terrorist activity were and are also those which were the most repressive or where there was much illiteracy.

I believe the teachings of the Koran are the cause of Muslim violence, if one hasn't read this book they should. It's nothing but violence, revenge and child sex to spice up the boring bits.

Seeing as how I have read quite a bit of the Qu'ran, I guess we were reading different books or something. Because while it's not a pacifist's manual (Islam never claims to be pacifist), it's not aggressively violent either.

The koran was written during a time of barbarity and war and violence.

And it reflects those historical contexts, while at the same time for the first time clearly defining codes of conduct centred around social justice issues.

For Muslims to follow the literal teachings of the Koran they must wage war on Non-Muslims as Allah instructed them to.

The only time Muslims are supposed to wage war on anyone is when there literally is no other choice, when the other side refuses to negotiate, and their own community is under a direct, life-or-death threat.

I've always wondered how people who believe that "Islam is the enemy" feel that not a single head of state agrees with them? That no major political party agrees with them, and that this rationale won't see the light of day in any policy circle.

And just how do you go about fighting all of the adherents of a religion that's 1.5 billion strong, including your own countrymen, without ceasing to be a democracy, and not becoming a blatantly Imperial, genocidal power? And where would you get the oil from in a global crusade against Islam, anyway?

It always seems like this argument is more about someone venting their anger towards their idea of Islam than actual logic and practicality.

[guyser]

It always seems like this argument is more about someone venting their anger towards their idea of Islam than actual logic and practicality.

Thank you.