Benazir Bhutto Dead

[moderateamericain]

Ill be the first to say that the ends dont always justify the means. Meaning how you accomplish your goals is just as important as the end result. She did what she felt was necessary in a society that tradition says should be demonized for doing the things that she did. Women have a back seat in Islamic society. However, regardless of the amount of corruption done to achieve her goals. If given the means and time I believe she could have made a better Pakistan and safer world. There are few people who get the opportunity in this world to really make a difference. At the very least, she had the courage to try. So i take my hat off to her for making the effort that she did. I wont quibble over every pro and cons and mistake she made. We are all guilty of that. And corruption does not start and stop with her. Even in the US and Canada we have corrupt politicians.

[Guest American Woman]

Good post, moderateamericain. You made some very good points. I agree with you.

[buffycat]

Ill be the first to say that the ends dont always justify the means. Meaning how you accomplish your goals is just as important as the end result. She did what she felt was necessary in a society that tradition says should be demonized for doing the things that she did. Women have a back seat in Islamic society. However, regardless of the amount of corruption done to achieve her goals. If given the means and time I believe she could have made a better Pakistan and safer world. There are few people who get the opportunity in this world to really make a difference. At the very least, she had the courage to try. So i take my hat off to her for making the effort that she did. I wont quibble over every pro and cons and mistake she made. We are all guilty of that. And corruption does not start and stop with her. Even in the US and Canada we have corrupt politicians.

Best post so far! Thanks moderateamerican!

Still - the question of who benefits from this tragedy remains to be answered.

Who told the bodyguards to stand down? Why the conflicting statements wrt what actually killed her? Bullet or sunroof? Why the superquick burial - no autopsy?

I found it odd that all mainstream media had their obits and life history pieces all set and ready to go. I also find it odd that right after John Negroponte's visit (you know Mr. Deathsquads) this occured. (Not much different that the explosion of sectarian violence erupting in Iraq shortly after Mr. Killersquad's visit there).

Lots of questions still!

(Oh and did anyone hear of Ms. Bhutto plainly mentioning the fact the bin Laden is dead? )

All very odd.

[Brain Candy]

"As a lifelong observer of the Pakistani struggle for autonomy, my thoughts of Benazir Bhutto are brutal, honest, and accurate: she is a lackey for the selfish mass of people who want to adopt Western style reforms under the guise of "democracy" but really seek to enrich themselves materially at the expense of the spiritual and cultural life of the country.

As a Pakistani who does not want my country to follow the path of the United States into slovenly decadence, nor the Soviet Union into dogma and misery, I would prefer a traditional solution because it escapes all of these problems. Benazir Bhutto opposed such a solution and pompously insisted that her own way was "morally superior" to other ways, even though she was aware of the decay and perversity and corruption it brings.

Dear Americans, not all of us want to follow you on your path to doom. Your future is like a bag of candy, in that it is so tempting now, and will feel good for awhile, but when the candy is gone, it is an empty bag blowing in the wind and we wish we had eaten a real lunch so we have energy to do what is right. I am glad Benazir Bhutto is out of politics and, if it took her death to do that, I am glad she is dead. "

http://www.corrupt.org/news/thoughts_on_benazir_bhutto

The message of this bombings is clear: Arabs are tremendously proud of their culture and beliefs and if anyone tries even in a nonviolent manner to force western style multiculturalist/capitalist values in the middle east they will be shown no mercy. Stop global terrorism: end cosmopolitanism

[jbg]

The message of this bombings is clear: Arabs are tremendously proud of their culture and beliefs and if anyone tries even in a nonviolent manner to force western style multiculturalist/capitalist values in the middle east they will be shown no mercy. Stop global terrorism: end cosmopolitanism

If you are indeed right, then we should take the position that we in the West "are tremendously proud of (our) culture and beliefs and if anyone tries even in a nonviolent manner to force ... multiculturalist... values (on us in the West) they will be shown no mercy".

[DogOnPorch]

If you are indeed right, then we should take the position that we in the West "are tremendously proud of (our) culture and beliefs and if anyone tries even in a nonviolent manner to force ... multiculturalist... values (on us in the West) they will be shown no mercy".

Indeed...the road goes both ways.

-----------------------------------------------

We wrapped ‘em all in a mains’l tight with

Twice ten turns of a hausers bight

And we heaved ‘em over and out of sight with a

Yo heave ho and fare you well

And a sullen plunge in a sullen swell

Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell

Yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.

---Robert Lewis Stevenson

[capricorn]

Still - the question of who benefits from this tragedy remains to be answered.

On the surface, it looks like Musharraf comes out on top.

Who told the bodyguards to stand down? Why the conflicting statements wrt what actually killed her? Bullet or sunroof?

I'm thinking that announcing that her death was not the direct result of gunshot or bombing injuries but butting her head on an object was a lame attempt to abate the resulting violence and vandalism. If so, it didn't work.

Why the superquick burial - no autopsy?

To my knowledge, it is customary for muslims to bury their dead very quickly, usually the day following death. Why no autopsy is a good question although I have read that autopsies are frowned upon by muslims.

I found it odd that all mainstream media had their obits and life history pieces all set and ready to go.

It's common practice for news agencies to have obits on all public figures already written and "ready to go". They assign someone the specific job of keeping the obits up-to-date.

I also find it odd that right after John Negroponte's visit (you know Mr. Deathsquads) this occured. (Not much different that the explosion of sectarian violence erupting in Iraq shortly after Mr. Killersquad's visit there).

A coincidence perhaps?

[jbg]

To my knowledge, it is customary for muslims to bury their dead very quickly, usually the day following death. Why no autopsy is a good question although I have read that autopsies are frowned upon by muslims.

Just as they are among Jews. When my father died of cancer in January 1973 while we are not religious, my mother strenuously objected to the hospital allowiong an autopsy. The autopsy was performed anyway. We didn't behead anyone as a result.

[bush_cheney2004]

As a Pakistani who does not want my country to follow the path of the United States into slovenly decadence, nor the Soviet Union into dogma and misery, I would prefer a traditional solution because it escapes all of these problems. Benazir Bhutto opposed such a solution and pompously insisted that her own way was "morally superior" to other ways, even though she was aware of the decay and perversity and corruption it brings.

Dear Americans, not all of us want to follow you on your path to doom....

Ah yes...a traditional solution...like President Nixon's full press military tilt in 1971 that prevented India from dismembering Pakistan's traditional ass. Not all Pakistanis want to follow the path to doom....but many of them do....they work with me everyday using wicked American ways.

Please have the civil war and get on with the future.....it worked swell for us American dogs.

[Brain Candy]

Indeed...the road goes both ways.

Only for the cosmopolitanist. The muslim world has sent the message time and time again that they dont want western values. I believe they have that right and in order to avoid more wars with them we have to approach our dealings with them from that angle.

[BubberMiley]

Please have the civil war and get on with the future.....it worked swell for us American dogs.

The U.S. didn't have nukes in the balance during its civil war. There may be no future to get on with.

[bush_cheney2004]

The U.S. didn't have nukes in the balance during its civil war. There may be no future to get on with.

Are you saying it is better to have the civil war by machete a la Rwanda?

There will always be a future...nukes or not. Please don't take the clash out of "clash of civilizations".

[Drea]

Back on topic....

On Nov 2, 2007 Bhutto names the man who killed Osama Bin Laden.

Yes you read that correctly! Watch the video, listen to her interview with David Frost.

Video - Benazir Bhutto: "Bin Laden was Murdered"

[bush_cheney2004]

Only for the cosmopolitanist. The muslim world has sent the message time and time again that they dont want western values. I believe they have that right and in order to avoid more wars with them we have to approach our dealings with them from that angle.

Hmmm....then why do they keep stealing so much western porn?

[Brain Candy]

Hmmm....then why do they keep stealing so much western porn?

Let them have it, in fact give them ALL of it, launch weapons of mass fapping. Porn is the worst waste of time and energy imaginable.

[bush_cheney2004]

Let them have it, in fact give them ALL of it, launch weapons of mass fapping. Porn is the worst waste of time and energy imaginable.

Perhaps you missed the larger point....I mean all the "porn", from music to Mercedes. If the "western values", and material representation of same are not wanted, then why can they be found in abundance in the "muslim world"?

Are satellite dishes authorized in the Qu'ran?

Is "muslim world" just a euphmemism for class struggle? Hell, there are 5,000,000 muslims in the USA.

What is the "muslim world"? (Analytically....is there a Christian world or Jewish world?)

[Brain Candy]

Perhaps you missed the larger point....I mean all the "porn", from music to Mercedes. If the "western values", and material representation of same are not wanted, then why can they be found in abundance in the "muslim world"?

Are satellite dishes authorized in the Qu'ran?

Is "muslim world" just a euphmemism for class struggle? Hell, there are 5,000,000 muslims in the USA.

What is the "muslim world"? (Analytically....is there a Christian world or Jewish world?)

Muslim world is countries that are muslim. Muslim "extremism" is not class struggle, probably more a form of militant traditionalism. I don't know enough about the specifics of muslims faiths or Pakistan to make a value judgement on what type of entertainment and technology they can have that is proper for their faiths, but i do know that a big enough population of muslims doesnt like western influence enough to kill this women and execute the most elaborate terrorist attacks ever a few years back. Therefore i would prefer not to get involved in trying to reconcile their beliefs to fit ours. Any change their will happen from within but its pretty obvious they dont not want it at least at the moment.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Brain Candy

[bush_cheney2004]

....Therefore i would prefer not to get involved in trying to reconcile their beliefs to fit ours. Any change their will happen from within but its pretty obvious they dont not want it at least at the moment.

Such has been the case for most encounters between civilizations. But the traditionalists have already been marginalized by their muslim brothers' and sisters' choices (my references to western "porn")....their cause is lost.

The only question is body count, same as any other struggle.

[Higgly]

Back on topic....

On Nov 2, 2007 Bhutto names the man who killed Osama Bin Laden.

Yes you read that correctly! Watch the video, listen to her interview with David Frost.

Video - Benazir Bhutto: "Bin Laden was Murdered"

I give. Who did kill bin Laden? My computer is Adobe Flash challenged for some reason I've never been able to figure out. It doesn't work. I've tried to install it, uninstall it, re-install it, de-install it. I tried to get some form of support from Adobe (good luck with that).

Please don't offer suggestions. I've given up and besides at least I don't have to watch the stupid flash-based ads so many sites have.

[Guest American Woman]

Omar Sheikh.

[M.Dancer]

................ fapping....

A word created on SE, a porn and politics blog

[Sulaco]

Ill be the first to say that the ends dont always justify the means. Meaning how you accomplish your goals is just as important as the end result. She did what she felt was necessary in a society that tradition says should be demonized for doing the things that she did. Women have a back seat in Islamic society. However, regardless of the amount of corruption done to achieve her goals. If given the means and time I believe she could have made a better Pakistan and safer world. There are few people who get the opportunity in this world to really make a difference. At the very least, she had the courage to try. So i take my hat off to her for making the effort that she did. I wont quibble over every pro and cons and mistake she made. We are all guilty of that. And corruption does not start and stop with her. Even in the US and Canada we have corrupt politicians.

Except that she brought Pakistan to the state it is in now. First, she worked on undermining democracy from within - if the People do not trust their elected governments to be at least somewhat virtueous they will over throw them. Or will support a military overthrow. Second, she coddled the Taliban, Kashmir terrorists and permitted the ISI to be corrupted from within. All that happened on her "watch". Musharaf for all his many failings has been dealing with the fruits of her mis-government. The idea that she should be annointed as king again so as to solve the problems she created is ridiculous.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Sulaco

[Sulaco]

Good post, moderateamericain. You made some very good points. I agree with you.

You remind of someone. Hmm...

The fact that world rleaders paid condolences means nothing. if Bush were assassinated tomorrw all the leaders of the world would be saying what a greeat man he was. it would be interesting to see your response to any such words.

[Guest American Woman]

You remind of someone. Hmm...

The fact that world rleaders paid condolences means nothing. if Bush were assassinated tomorrw all the leaders of the world would be saying what a greeat man he was. it would be interesting to see your response to any such words.

Your post makes no sense at all. Moderateamericain's post, which I was referring to, had nothing to do with the condolences world leaders paid to Bhutto.

[Sulaco]

Your post makes no sense at all. Moderateamericain's post, which I was referring to, had nothing to do with the condolences world leaders paid to Bhutto.

I was referring to the earlier post you posted. A digression from my initial reaction which was that you remind me of another poster on another forum. But the digression is interesting. In your argument for Bhutto's sainthood you posted leaders' reactions as if they were evidence of that sainthood. I don't find such statements from world leaders upon a death of a fellow politician to be generally very credible.

Seems world leaders are lauding her.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown said Bhutto had risked everything to try and bring democracy to her country, of which Britain used to be the colonial ruler. "The terrorists must not be allowed to kill democracy in Pakistan," he said.

"The subcontinent has lost an outstanding leader who worked for democracy and reconciliation in her country," said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India, Pakistan's giant neighbor and nuclear rival.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy called the killing odious. "France, like the European Union, is particularly attached to stability and democracy in Pakistan," he said in a letter to Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf.

Bush urged Pakistanis to honor Bhutto's memory by continuing with the democratic process and said those behind the attack must be brought to justice. "The United States strongly condemns this cowardly act by murderous extremists who are trying to undermine Pakistan's democracy," he told reporters at his Texas ranch.

Jose Manuel Barroso, president of the European Union's executive arm, the European Commission, said it was "an attack against democracy and against Pakistan."

Link

QUOTE

Well - take it from those who paid attention to her while she actually was in power - she was not the cats pajamas that she is now made out to be.

I guess they just weren't paying attention while she was in power, eh?

Edited December 31, 2007 by Sulaco