Money

[August1991]

"Once I saw the numbers on my bank account on the Internet, I started shaking. It really sunk in. Actually I started crying," Ms. Teicht said.

"We're all very glad it's finally over," she added.

G & M

This is a lottery winner describing how she realized that she was "rich".

In the past, in the time of the pharoahs, wealth was measured by gold (it seems strange to collect what in effect is a stone). More recently, everyone wanted the US dollar. People supposedly would do anything for this green and black paper - mere paper!

But nowadays, we know that we are rich if a few numbers on our computer screen show this.

In going from stone to paper to a computer screen, maybe money will lose its veil of confusion. One can speak of a gold rush, gold earrings or even describe dollars as filthy lucre. Can one speak of "numbers on a computer screen" as the root of all evil? Mere numbers!

Some will say: Money is not the root of all evil - greed is. In making this conclusion, one has already realized that "money" is just a symbol of something else. Symbol? With more thought, it should be obvious that money is not a symbol of greed, or mammon.

----

My idea is different.

What happens in a world where "money" is merely a number on a computer screen?

Edited December 23, 2007 by August1991

[charter.rights]

G & M

This is a lottery winner describing how she realized that she was "rich".

In the past, in the time of the pharoahs, wealth was measured by gold (it seems strange to collect what in effect is a stone). More recently, everyone wanted the US dollar. People supposedly would do anything for this green and black paper - mere paper!

But nowadays, we know that we are rich if a few numbers on our computer screen show this.

In going from stone to paper to a computer screen, maybe money will lose its veil of confusion. One can speak of a gold rush, gold earrings or even describe dollars as filthy lucre. Can one speak of "numbers on a computer screen" as the root of all evil? Mere numbers!

Some will say: Money is not the root of all evil - greed is. In making this conclusion, one has already realized that "money" is just a symbol of something else. Symbol? With more thought, it should be obvious that money is not a symbol of greed, or mammon.

----

My idea is different.

What happens in a world where "money" is merely a number on a computer screen?

The same thing as deaths from poverty, disease and war are mere numbers on a screen........who cares?

[marcinmoka]

My idea is different.

Your idea?

What happens in a world where "money" is merely a number on a computer screen?

Money always has, and always will be 'credits' for privilege, for power. Who cares what format. Afterall, gold hasn't any intrinsic utility value.

---------------------

What I found a bit more disturbing in this article was this:

They've already spoken about what they plan to do with their winnings, which includes travel, buying a dream car and even purchasing a pearl necklace for Mr. Carlisi's cat.

[Oleg Bach]

Your idea?

Money always has, and always will be 'credits' for privilege, for power. Who cares what format. Afterall, gold hasn't any intrinsic utility value.

---------------------

What I found a bit more disturbing in this article was this:

Money is a religion. We cling to it as if it were God itself. Mammonism is a disease and I have heard it said by a very very wealthy man who in contempt of society - would say " they are dogs and will say anything and do anything for a paycheck" - and this guy knows...so it is mans greatest weakness and all can be controled via this stuff - sad - that none are brave enough to confont this false God of worthlessness.

[marcinmoka]

Money is a religion.

No. I can resign from religion and survive. But I cannot do with w/money.

[Michael Hardner]

The original money system was just a central registry where trade was recorded and it created our current economic 'world'. It doesn't matter whether money is gold, paper or numbers on a screen.

The current system, though, needs to recognize some different types of worth if we are to move forward.

[Moonlight Graham]

Money always has, and always will be 'credits' for privilege, for power. Who cares what format. Afterall, gold hasn't any intrinsic utility value.

Actually, gold is a great conductor of electricity. But i doubt the pharaoh's knew much about this heheh...

[Wilber]

Money always has, and always will be 'credits' for privilege, for power. Who cares what format. Afterall, gold hasn't any intrinsic utility value.

Gold has a lot of utility value. Not enough to justify its price but the same can also be said for diamonds.

[August1991]

The original money system was just a central registry where trade was recorded and it created our current economic 'world'. It doesn't matter whether money is gold, paper or numbers on a screen.

The current system, though, needs to recognize some different types of worth if we are to move forward.

I don't think the original system was centralized but when trade began to use numbers (or rather, when trade lead to the creation of numbers), then co-operation took a quantum leap.

I agree that anything can be used as a numeraire and my OP merely remarks on this idea. Now, apparently, we use numbers on the Internet.

[bTW, when some people say that most of humanity (ie. other people) are stupid, I am reminded of examples such as this. People figure out Internet-banking fast enough, if it matters to them.]

"Different types of worth"? What do you mean Hardner? Modern, wealthy, sophisticated western societies use a gamut of financial paper (money) to conduct trade.

[Michael Hardner]

A1991,

I don't think the original system was centralized but when trade began to use numbers (or rather, when trade lead to the creation of numbers), then co-operation took a quantum leap.

I believe that the first system involved pictographs on stone tablets, and even that rough system created a better society.

I agree that anything can be used as a numeraire and my OP merely remarks on this idea. Now, apparently, we use numbers on the Internet.

[bTW, when some people say that most of humanity (ie. other people) are stupid, I am reminded of examples such as this. People figure out Internet-banking fast enough, if it matters to them.]

Exactly. The government doesn't want to bother us with performance statistics on how they're doing, ostensibly because we're too dumb to understand them. Yet, I have seen the most complicated contest rules, lottery rules, or coupon schemes followed to the letter if it's in somebody's self-interest.

"Different types of worth"? What do you mean Hardner? Modern, wealthy, sophisticated western societies use a gamut of financial paper (money) to conduct trade.

Certain things are valuable to society, yet they cannot have any monetary value. If we could somehow measure those things in a broadly accepted fashion, there would be a benefit.

[August1991]

I believe that the first system involved pictographs on stone tablets, and even that rough system created a better society.

I think the first drawings were animals. The first attempts to count involved trade (terms of trade). The earliest "writings" usually concerned inventories, possessions and wills. In effect, definition of a contract required writing - and numbers.

Incidentally, this is one of my areas of research.

Certain things are valuable to society, yet they cannot have any monetary value. If we could somehow measure those things in a broadly accepted fashion, there would be a benefit.

Michael, I agree with you entirely.

As individuals, we value many things but we have no way to express our valuation of these things in society at large. This is a grave weakness of our society. Money facilitates cooperation in many cases but not in all.

Edited December 29, 2007 by August1991

[M.Dancer]

Like many Canadians, I have a considerqal amount of Canadian Tire "money" in my drawer. At last count it was near $50.00.....

Is CND Tire money a coupon or cash?

I hear Licks and a few bars accept it at face value...

[Michael Hardner]

A1991,

I think the first drawings were animals. The first attempts to count involved trade (terms of trade). The earliest "writings" usually concerned inventories, possessions and wills. In effect, definition of a contract required writing - and numbers.

Incidentally, this is one of my areas of research.

Yes, I too researched this fascinating area while writing a play ten years ago.

Clay tablets in Sumaria contain the earliest accounting data for burgeoning cities of that region.

QUOTE(Michael Hardner @ Dec 28 2007, 08:40 AM) *

Certain things are valuable to society, yet they cannot have any monetary value. If we could somehow measure those things in a broadly accepted fashion, there would be a benefit.

Michael, I agree with you entirely.

As individuals, we value many things but we have no way to express our valuation of these things in society at large. This is a grave weakness of our society. Money facilitates cooperation in many cases but not in all.

When you think of 'money', and what it means you start to realize that all it is, really, is an idea that people buy into. It has an illusionary precision that doesn't really exist - kind of like language does. Spoken language is a medium of personal communication and money is a medium of material communication.

As an idea, 'money' is easily and instantly acceptable by people. As such, it works, and creates a structure for cooperative interchange that is natural and robust.

Now that society is starting to ascend Maslow's heirarchy of needs, we need some new kind of social interchange that addresses social and spiritual needs.

[capricorn]

As an idea, 'money' is easily and instantly acceptable by people. As such, it works, and creates a structure for cooperative interchange that is natural and robust.

The black market is an example of cooperative interchange between people. When the GST was first introduced, as a consequence many services were negotiated under the table between buyer and provider for cash without receipts. It thrives to this day. Another example is the contraband tobacco market. More often than not, the underground economy is fueled by government policy.

[Michael Hardner]

A paperless money system - plastic card based - would likely take care of that problem pretty easily. Unfortunately, though, people would absolutely be dependent on government to recognize and validate their wealth.

Such a system might offer other advantages as an incentive to adoption - such as lower tax rates, and guarantees against seizure.

[socred]

"money is any medium which has reached such a degree of acceptablility that, no matter what it is made of, and no matter why people want it, no one will refuse it in exchange for his product." (Professor Walker)

Money is created by the banks as a debt which must be repaid. Banks have been centralizing their power over the last few centuries starting with the Bank of England, and culminating in international organizations like the IMF and World Bank. One only look at the temples we erect to understand the power of money in the modern world. Walk into any downtown sector, and you'll find the majority of high rises are owned by banks or insurance companies. Instead of money being a tool, it has become our master, and "golden calf worship" is alive and well in the modern age.

[Brain Candy]

.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Brain Candy

[Brain Candy]

Money cannot be the root of all evil, it is merely a tool through which material goods are exchanged.

Material goods cannot be the root of all evil, they are merely tools which people can either buy if they deem them necessary for some purpose or not.

What could be "evil" is using goods in a destructive or moronic way, or buying goods on impulse only to throw them away and add to the landfill a little while later. For example TV and the Internet could be used as useful things to receive and exchange information, but at the same time it could be used as a way to keep the mind and body idle for hours on end watching and looking up stupid things that will not make you a better person and not make you of use to those around you. Alcohol can be used as something to take the edge off the day and just chill with some friends or it can be consumed to the point of intoxication so you can ashamed and depressed the next day. Toilets can be used for the disposal of bodily waste or as a

.

The Nazis theory that history is a struggle between races for superiority is wrong. The communist/capitalist theory that history is a struggle between classes for equality or an equal playing field is wrong. All of this is really a struggle between the smart and the stupid choices. Smart people can do stupid things and then learn from the experience but stupid people (who are now usually solopcists disguised as "individualists" ) do stupid things allmost exclusively unless they are told what not to do. The stupid will ruin any good idea if given the chance.

Edited December 31, 2007 by Brain Candy

[Topaz]

As riches go I think Alberta, especially has had a very good year!! You have the oil sands raking in the money, citizens got back $400.00 per person, (I think) and it seems more lottery winners in 2007 were from Alberta!!! Good reasons to at least think about moving.

[margrace]

Money cannot be the root of all evil, it is merely a tool through which material goods are exchanged.

Material goods cannot be the root of all evil, they are merely tools which people can either buy if they deem them necessary for some purpose or not.

What could be "evil" is using goods in a destructive or moronic way, or buying goods on impulse only to throw them away and add to the landfill a little while later. For example TV and the Internet could be used as useful things to receive and exchange information, but at the same time it could be used as a way to keep the mind and body idle for hours on end watching and looking up stupid things that will not make you a better person and not make you of use to those around you. Alcohol can be used as something to take the edge off the day and just chill with some friends or it can be consumed to the point of intoxication so you can ashamed and depressed the next day. Toilets can be used for the disposal of bodily waste or as a

.

The Nazis theory that history is a struggle between races for superiority is wrong. The communist/capitalist theory that history is a struggle between classes for equality or an equal playing field is wrong. All of this is really a struggle between the smart and the stupid choices. Smart people can do stupid things and then learn from the experience but stupid people (who are now usually solopcists disguised as "individualists" ) do stupid things allmost exclusively unless they are told what not to do. The stupid will ruin any good idea if given the chance.

Yes there are a lot of stupid things that go on, such as the worship of Doctors. Doctors are human, they are not God and they can only do what is in their experience. People who are sick need to take charge of their own care. It is hard to feel sympathy for a person who smokes, who drinks to access, who does not get any viable exercise, who eats what they know is bad for them and on and on. Then they complain when they do not get immediate relief from the doctor. I help in a clinic and hear of the horrible excesses that people have practised all their lives, why are they even there, they have no intention of changing and of course it is the health care system that is to blame. Baloney, you are to blame for your own health and the sooner you learn that and realize that all the money in the world will not correct your excesses then the healthier you will be.

[socred]

Money cannot be the root of all evil, it is merely a tool through which material goods are exchanged.

Since money is essential to the functioning of our modern economy, money can also be used as a form of government, and this "government" has been centralizing its power since the creation of the Bank of England, and culiminating in international organizations like the IMF and the World Bank.