Europe's Borders Fall

[August1991]

Celebrations have been held after midnight to mark nine new states joining a European border-free zone.

The Schengen agreement, which allows passport-free travel across the area, now embraces 24 nations.

Some 2,000 people celebrated with the EU anthem, Beethoven's Ode to Joy, and fireworks in the town of Frankfurt on Oder at Germany's border with Poland.

The Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia joined the zone.

...

A significant element of the Schengen agreement is the Schengen Information Service (SIS) which features an enormous database in the French city of Strasbourg.

The SIS database enables police in any Schengen state to find out whether a suspect has been involved in any kind of crime across the EU.

BBC

This is very good news. It is now possible to drive from Helsinki to Lisbon without creossing any border or having to show any passport. Foreigners, with one visa, can travel to most of Europe.

We should be doing the same in North America.

[Borg]

BBC

This is very good news. It is now possible to drive from Helsinki to Lisbon without creossing any border or having to show any passport. Foreigners, with one visa, can travel to most of Europe.

We should be doing the same in North America.

A borderless North America?

I am not sure I want some folks on this continent moving here thank you very much.

Heck I wish I could shut out some canuckleheads.

Merry Christmas

Borg

[scribblet]

Good news, I wouldn't say that, although a terrorist might.

[DogOnPorch]

A borderless North America?

I suppose it would solve that pesky illegal Mexican problem in the States.

---------------------------------------------------

Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something.

---Pancho Villa's last words

[sharkman]

I think yet more fallout from 9/11 is that North America will never become like the EU, which will keep North American countries from being able to compete with the economic might of the EU. This is a very bad thing and could be the final nail in the coffin as the US struggles to compete on an increasingly un-level playing field. Between the EU and China, America will be squeezed out. As the US keeps it's borders strong, perhaps the terrorists have won a victory they didn't see coming.

[CandianWatcher]

I don't know if doing away with National borders is a good thing. The Europeans gave up a lot to get to the stage they are now, nationally speaking. I am not sure I would want to see the same thing happen in North America.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think yet more fallout from 9/11 is that North America will never become like the EU, which will keep North American countries from being able to compete with the economic might of the EU. This is a very bad thing and could be the final nail in the coffin as the US struggles to compete on an increasingly un-level playing field. Between the EU and China, America will be squeezed out. As the US keeps it's borders strong, perhaps the terrorists have won a victory they didn't see coming.

North American countries Canada and Mexico already can't compete with the EU...America is still competing.

[capricorn]

There is more than political will required to address economic competition with the EU. North American geography makes competing with the EU an even more daunting challenge.

[August1991]

There is more than political will required to address economic competition with the EU. North American geography makes competing with the EU an even more daunting challenge.

We don't compete with the EU. We trade with them.

If you run a small business and everyone in your neighbourhood gets a pay raise, is that good or bad for you? IOW, are you competing with your neighbours?

Life (and economics) are not like a sports match.

----

I just find it sad that when Europeans have the courage to remove barriers, we in North America are erecting them. There is an odd alliance between Canada's Left and the Bush Americans to raise barriers between Canada and the US. Fortunately, the voice of practical reason (border US governors) seems to have delayed to 2009 the passport requirement for land border crossing.

Moreover, we should be working to remove barriers to trade in a whole host of items including agriculture, culture and government procurement. These barriers only limit us and make us poorer than we otherwise would be.

In the past, North America was the leader in ease of travel and trade. Now, we are the laggards.

I don't know if doing away with National borders is a good thing. The Europeans gave up a lot to get to the stage they are now, nationally speaking. I am not sure I would want to see the same thing happen in North America.

What did the Europeans give up? A nationalist ideology that brough them two horrific wars in which tens of millions died?

But look. A culture or a nation does not require borders to survive. This place called Canada existed long before the federal government was created and it will exist long after the demise or change of our government system. Canada and the government of Canada are two entirely different things and when you speak of borders, you are only speaking of the government.

In the future, the idea of government and borders will be different. The evidence is already here to see. Governments no longer really control their borders and it's polite delusion to believe otherwise.

Edited December 22, 2007 by August1991

[sharkman]

I don't know if I made my point clear. North America was on the road to a European Union like zone with potentially one currency, the US dollar. Since 9/11, the American government now sees open borders as a bad thing. Terrorists are trying to sneak in to blow up Americans. So America tends to want closed, closely watched borders to keep out terrorists, and rightly so.

However, this does not lend itself well to forming an European Union like zone in North America. The economies realized, and the economic clout realized, which would match the influence the EU now enjoys, are lost as the EU has sometimes a competitive advantage in commerce.

In our trading with the EU, either side looks for an advantage to get a better deal with the other. If one side has more clout, such as with economies of scale that a larger union can enjoy, they can demand better deals, somewhat like what Walmart does with the companies it trades with. The EU is becoming like this. NA can not match this clout as a divided group of countries. A corporation here has extra expenses and red tape that come with restricted borders. This gives the EU a competitive advantage over NA. If Boeing bids for a Chinese contract, it faces a competitive disadvantage when compared to its counterpart in the EU bidding for the same contract.

Therefore, the US and NA are losing, and will continue to lose, bargaining power when bidding for contracts with, say, China in the coming decades.

August, you haven't mentioned if you understand why the US is erecting barriers. Do you disagree that it is partly a result of 9/11 and the enhanced need for security? Should the US open wide their borders?

[Wilber]

Interesting. Out west the EU isn't very large on the radar. The focus is Asia.

[August1991]

Good news, I wouldn't say that, although a terrorist might.

Are you so foolish to believe that a line drawn on a map protects you?

In very practical terms, what is a "border"? A spot check for anyone driving on a road? And that accomplishes anything?

Scriblett, I am depressed by your logic. You seem to think that a government-ordained "border", a line on a map, will protect you. People drive between Quebec and Ontario, and New York and Pennsylvania. What line matters? Should we check people at every line?

[August1991]

August, you haven't mentioned if you understand why the US is erecting barriers. Do you disagree that it is partly a result of 9/11 and the enhanced need for security? Should the US open wide their borders?

Of course, 9/11 has had an effect.

IMO, Canada is not a security risk. The US should know this. Unfortunately, the US Fox News/CNN/Bush Isolationist/Lou Dobbs mentality seems to have extended, once again, to snow-laden Canada.

In the past (Trudeau's 1971 deal & Mulroney's USFTA), Canada got a special dispensation. I think Harper is derelict on this one. Harper (and Martin) haven't pursued this passport requirement well. The Americans want to isolate themselves from the world and once again, we Canadians have to go to Washington and explain that Canadians are different.

Frankly though, I'd like to see a Canadian PM behave less like a prostitute and more like an honest wife and tell the US President that these barriers - in general, and for other countries - are "just not on". These barriers and this isolationism demean the family name.

Dunno. Maybe Harper can do that.

Trudeau, Mulroney, Chretien, King never did. They behaved like courtesans, not wives.

Edited December 22, 2007 by August1991

[capricorn]

We don't compete with the EU. We trade with them.

I'm not versed in economics but I always thought competition and trade were intertwined in terms of a country's economics. Aiming to increase exports and decreasing imports just seems to me the way to go in terms of sustaining a viable workforce. By removing geographic barriers, the EU has the upper hand over North America in this regard. With the fear mongering going on about a possible North American Union (NAU) where even building a cross-border highway raises furor, well we deserve what we get.

[capricorn]

I don't know if I made my point clear. North America was on the road to a European Union like zone with potentially one currency, the US dollar. Since 9/11, the American government now sees open borders as a bad thing. Terrorists are trying to sneak in to blow up Americans. So America tends to want closed, closely watched borders to keep out terrorists, and rightly so.

Another factor about Americans and their borders is that they have to deal with the millions of illegal aliens that have settled there. Recently, US politicians have been divided over whether amnesty should be given to these illegals. I don't think this has been resolved. Also, many Americans appear to be concerned about a potential North American Union affecting their sovereignty, just as many Canadians are. There are formidable obstacles to achieving what European countries have achieved through the creation of the EU.

Edited December 23, 2007 by capricorn

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course, 9/11 has had an effect.

IMO, Canada is not a security risk. The US should know this. Unfortunately, the US Fox News/CNN/Bush Isolationist/Lou Dobbs mentality seems to have extended, once again, to snow-laden Canada.

The American experience is different. See Millennium Bomber.

In the past (Trudeau's 1971 deal & Mulroney's USFTA), Canada got a special dispensation. I think Harper is derelict on this one. Harper (and Martin) haven't pursued this passport requirement well. The Americans want to isolate themselves from the world and once again, we Canadians have to go to Washington and explain that Canadians are different.

Why is Canada different...from Mexico, or Peru, or Jamaica? Why should it be treated any differently by the United States?

Frankly though, I'd like to see a Canadian PM behave less like a prostitute and more like an honest wife and tell the US President that these barriers - in general, and for other countries - are "just not on". These barriers and this isolationism demean the family name.

What family name? Canada is both an opportunity and risk for the United States.

[capricorn]

Why is Canada different...from Mexico, or Peru, or Jamaica? Why should it be treated any differently by the United States?

We often hear Canadians refer to the US as "our American cousins". I have never seen Americans in this light. I always saw Americans and the US simply as a friendly neighbour. I agree with you BC. Why should Canada and Canadians receive special treatment? I appreciate everything done by our respective countries to facilitate mobility between our borders for legitimate purposes. Yet, I don't attribute this to anything other than a mutually advantageous arrangement and not an entitlement by either side.

What family name? Canada is both an opportunity and risk for the United States.

And vice-versa.