DND Spending

[Army Guy]

EYEBALL:

If militarists are queasy about war bonds the Peace Tax Fund the United Church of Canada has endorsed should really make them puke.

It's a proposal that will not go any where. Why did you think that is....Perhaps you think that you and your cause is the only one out there with an axe to grind....By giving CO's this ability NOT to pay a small portion of thier tax dollars they , or the Federal government would have to give this ability to every tom dick or harry....i mean we do live in a democratic state do we not...

WHEREAS the right to conscientious objection to war is a component of the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion in order that people who are conscientious objectors to war on religious or humanist grounds may be able to practise their beliefs;

So people who are again'st just fill in the blanks could actually qualifiy for not paying a portion or eventually all of thier income taxes...becuase freedom of thought and conscience really covers alot of ground....So take a guy like me...It' bugs me that i pay into EI and can not collect it, it also bugs me that i pay into a health care system that really does not work all that well, it bugs me that portions of my tax dollars goes to pay unqualifed welfare persons, and i'm sure i could come up with a list that could or would cover my entire tax bill....

Do you see the problem here....can you actually see our nation as it is now falling apart if it where to put in place your "so called freedoms and rights as a CO....

However, the principle of conscientious objection to war is violated through the provisions of the taxation system, in that individuals do not have the right to exercise freedom of conscience through redirection of the military portion of their taxes within the federal budget to non-military uses.

Which is really explained in detail below....

This resolution does not call for redirection of all monies remotely connected with military activity. The United Church has a long history of calling for increased government spending on international peacemaking and peace-keeping activity. If anything, we would want to see that part of the federal budget increased

.

So it's OK with the church to kill and go to war as long as it is called peacemaking, or peace keeping....in fact they want the military to be doing more of this type of activity....I'm curious to the thier interputation of peacemaking or peace keeping...

This resolution focuses on the federal and provincial subsidies that go to assist companies in competing for contracts to supply spare parts and components of offensive military goods and repression technology and on funds allocated to the Defence Industry Productivity Programme, which assists companies wishing to convert from civilian to military production

The above are not part of DND's budget, nor are they classified as military spending...

The amount would need to be calculated on an annual basis by the appropriate government body, as it will fluctuate with the level of military spending in countries with which Canada trades. A symbolic figure of 50 per cent of military spending would be advisable until such time as the federal government reveals the actual figure.

It should be noted that this resolution distinguishes between equipment used by a country to patrol its coastline, air space and land in order to ensure that its territory cannot be used by one power to attack another (often called defensive defence as opposed to offensive weapons). It also refers to repression technology, which is equipment that is known to be used by certain governments to torture their own citizens or to reinforce a security apparatus that violates the fundamental rights of citizens. Such equipment often has both civilian and military uses, but the UN Commission on Human Rights maintains a list of such equipment, based on its review of the actual practice of human rights violator governments. It includes equipment such as shock batons, handguns sold to the security forces of a country with a bad human rights record, computers sold to the security forces of a country such as South Africa, et cetera.

Has everyone read this, just how much of our military spending even gets close to this discription....

The United Church of Canada has always supported a unified tax system and has "refused" to support efforts aimed at withholding tax from the federal government or provincial governments

.

Perhaps someone can explain to me how they support a unified tax system, and yet propose this that would or could dismantle the whole thing...

You know dick about the amount of volunteer time I've put in as a fireman, or as a committee member on local governance boards, or just generally helping out around my community.

Ever save anyones life, eyeball....did it give you a warm a fuzzy feeling....same felling i get when we dig a well, build a school, build a road, or take down a bad guy before he commits one of thier henous crimes....like cutting off little girls hands for going to school, after they tortured her father all night then exicuted him before her inocent eyes....she was only 7 years old....Thats why i've done 2 tours and going back for a third...because Canadian soldiers are making a difference...and i don't do it because it unpopular in Canada....could'nt give a rats ass whether you like the mission or not....

i do it for the Afgan people...who i've meet, talked with, fought along side off...and they have touched me and my life along with the thousands of other Canadian soldiers... A people who need our help, a people who can not have any of the freedoms we take for granted without our help....a people who can not help themselfs....

So great for you, your a volunteer fire fighter, your popular around your community....but that is where your humanity stops....just outside your community....the rest of the world can kiss your CO ass....i explained how much it costs to help these people and you can not get past that....Forget all those other reasons you are aganis't this war...and rather concentrate on those that will eventually be helped by our actions....The average Afganis....

I know they are not worthy, nature will sort those poor bastards out...

but i firmly believe we all will be judged by our actions or inactions when we check out, personally i'd rather explain to st peter, why i had to kill a few bad guys then to explain why i did not help those millions of afgans in thier hour of need...why i turned my back on them..

Just for the record I can't stand watching hockey and if you'd been paying attention you'd know I opted out of EI years ago. If you're any indication it looks like there are even worse things a person could have up their ass.

Yes i'm a very bad person, because i'm in the military, the very instution that sends shivers of disgust down your spine....You need to get past all the media hype about afgan and boil it down to the people....but i forgot, it's all about the money....tell you what, send me your address and "i'll" give you your portion of tax dollars you spent on our nations military....because i'd hate to be standing on guard for thy knowing it totally bugs the shit out of you, that your tax dollars may be used to help others out.......

[M.Dancer]

Eyeball is just another extreme left wing self loathing type. He ain't a CO or even near to being one but is conveinenly using it cause he sees it as another weapon to use against the west.

[eyeball]

Game set and match.

Get a grip Morris, you get a half point at best for calling me on being a CO.

For many of us it is not enough to avoid personal military service because we know that funds taken from us in the form of tax will be used for war and other violent purposes. In other words, we know that we will be made complicit in war through our taxes no matter what our beliefs and values might be.

As Conscientious Objectors we want to know that all funds that we turn over to government will be used only for peaceful purposes. We therefore call ourselves Conscientious Objectors to Military Taxation (COMT).

http://www.consciencecanada.ca/home/

So there's your half point, I'm actually a COMT, a Conscientious Objector to Military Taxation. On the other hand you lose points for needlessly questioning the veracity of statements regarding US support for dictators. Its happening as we speak and Canada is apparently OK Jack. I wonder how many Canadian made componants were incorporated into the advanced weapon systems Bush is currently peddling in the ME? I suppose the Canadian military corporations that made them also received a bunch of taxpayer-funded government subsidies.

My right to conscientiously object is being denied. My sense of denial here reminds me of what I've heard said about the experience of abuse - if it feels like its happening, it is.

The Charter of the United Nations declares that, "…everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion…" (article 18);

Canada is bound by this under international law, and our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees, "…Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion;…"

What you want is to pick and choose where you tax dollars go, but I suspect you don't want to extend that priveledge to others. Many do have a deep religious objection to abortion, yet their tax dollars go to pay for them . Perhaps there should be abortion bonds.

You've got a point, perhaps there should.

As well, concientious objectors in the past have not been allowed to shirk their national duty when the time came. They were simply given non combat roles, or if they had courage along with conviction, they became combat medics.

I wouldn't be shirking anything at all. My money and taxes represent my work. Forcing me to work for the military is conscription therefore using my money and taxes against my will for the military is too. I'd still be paying my taxes like anyone else except my money would be going to non-combat spending instead. If you had the courage of your convictions you'd be calling on the country to reinstitute conscription. Please do, I can't think of anything that would put an end to Canada's involvement in Afghanistan.

Instead you would deny soldiers the basic needs to keep themsleves safe for what amount to a political conviction. Tis in my mind is loathsome and reprehensible. You would make a political point on the blood of canadian soldiers.

What's really reprehensible is your implication that I'm loathsome because I object to war. Everything is political, especially with you it seems, but that has little if anything at all to do with how I feel.

[eyeball]

....like cutting off little girls hands for going to school, after they tortured her father all night then exicuted him before her inocent eyes....she was only 7 years old.....Thats why i've done 2 tours and going back for a third...because Canadian soldiers are making a difference...

I'm sorry you had to see this, it sounds traumatizing to say the least. I suspect however its just a fraction of the atrocities being committed by dictators we are otherwise giving a free pass to. If Canada, starting right now, was as committed to putting itself between the people who create and nurture these as you are to put yourself between the kids and the monsters you describe, I wouldn't begrudge you a single penny. I'd be willing to pay far more in fact, I'd be willing to commit our country's entire economy. Our government however appears to be as indifferent as ever to some of the world's worst regimes in the face of everything it says its trying to do in Afghanistan so I have no faith in this mission and truly believe it's all in vain.

I think false hope is worse than no hope at all and the unfortunate people you speak of would be better off if they could evolve beyond the superstition and backwardness that's hobbling their culture the hard way like our's did. Perhaps I'm wrong but I just think its too late to be trying to save the world from itself one hellhole at a time, not when there are other more urgent matters we need to start preparing for as a country. Our planet is heading for a very very rough time. Only a few determined countries and societies are going to make it through a rapidly approaching ecological bottleneck and I think we risk being dragged under. There will come a point, rapidly, when its every country for itself again. Like I said, turn course right now or forget it.

[Army Guy]

Here is some good news they finally agreed on the purchase of new transport A/C C130J.

C130J

[Army Guy]

Eyeball:

So there's your half point, I'm actually a COMT, a Conscientious Objector to Military Taxation. On the other hand you lose points for needlessly questioning the veracity of statements regarding US support for dictators. Its happening as we speak and Canada is apparently OK Jack. I wonder how many Canadian made componants were incorporated into the advanced weapon systems Bush is currently peddling in the ME? I suppose the Canadian military corporations that made them also received a bunch of taxpayer-funded government subsidies.

I'm really beginning to think you don't know WTF you are. And i'll try to explain this to you one more time.....

Your objection to military taxation and the reasons you stated do not come out of the DND or military budget period....they are not linked Nor are the corporations that build military equipment. So your barking up the wrong tree....

I'm sorry you had to see this, it sounds traumatizing to say the least.

The entire Afgan experiance is traumatizing, hence why we are so needed there.

If Canada, starting right now, was as committed to putting itself between the people who create and nurture these as you are to put yourself between the kids and the monsters you describe, I wouldn't begrudge you a single penny. I'd be willing to pay far more in fact, I'd be willing to commit our country's entire economy.

This is not not just my commitmant but that of every soldier that is or has served in Afgan....But then again we've always given 1000% on any operation....but here is the frustrating part, the more we give the more that Canadians expect, and although they are slowly coming around to the fact that it all costs money....Soldiers lives are put in grave danger because our nation has failed to provide them with the best or proper equipment....So when anyone talks about reducing our budget soldiers cringe....because in the end it is us you pay, in our blood...

Our government however appears to be as indifferent as ever to some of the world's worst regimes in the face of everything it says its trying to do in Afghanistan so I have no faith in this mission and truly believe it's all in vain

When your dealt lemons you make lemonade...this new Afgan government will not be in power forever, soon new elections will be held and we will have new faces and new problems to deal with and as the years pass by hopefully their government s will get better as well....

I think false hope is worse than no hope at all and the unfortunate people you speak of would be better off if they could evolve beyond the superstition and backwardness that's hobbling their culture the hard way like our's did.

So we did'nt get any assistance from the mother country, or france we did it alone...i'll have to reread those history books again....I don't think the hope we are providing is false, Once again, we have so much here in Canada, even if we did fail what would it have cost us as a nation....and if we are successful then the return will be tremdous....How many Canadians thought that lester pearsons "peace keeping plan" was a good one on day one....

Perhaps I'm wrong but I just think its too late to be trying to save the world from itself one hellhole at a time, not when there are other more urgent matters we need to start preparing for as a country. Our planet is heading for a very very rough time. Only a few determined countries and societies are going to make it through a rapidly approaching ecological bottleneck and I think we risk being dragged under. There will come a point, rapidly, when its every country for itself again. Like I said, turn course right now or forget it.

And if you are wrong, then what...When you arrive at a fire, do you tell the screaming parents sorry we can't save your kids, because we are preparing for something else....or can we as one of the G-8 nations not able to do 2 things at once...

Or is this the underlying reason your so again'st military spending because you want that monies spent on our enviroment...And if your so concerned then why only pick on the military why not all the rest of the needless depts which bils are spent on...CBC comes to mind, hell my favourite EI...

[jbg]

Get a grip Morris, you get a half point at best for calling me on being a CO.

http://www.consciencecanada.ca/home/

So there's your half point, I'm actually a COMT, a Conscientious Objector to Military Taxation. On the other hand you lose points for needlessly questioning the veracity of statements regarding US support for dictators. Its happening as we speak and Canada is apparently OK Jack. I wonder how many Canadian made componants were incorporated into the advanced weapon systems Bush is currently peddling in the ME? I suppose the Canadian military corporations that made them also received a bunch of taxpayer-funded government subsidies.

My right to conscientiously object is being denied. My sense of denial here reminds me of what I've heard said about the experience of abuse - if it feels like its happening, it is.

The Charter of the United Nations declares that, "…everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion…" (article 18);

Canada is bound by this under international law, and our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees, "…Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion;…"

You've got a point, perhaps there should.

A few points:

1. The UN Charter relies on the armed forces of observing nations to enforce it; and
   
2. In a representative democraciy decisions about taxes are made by elected representatives, not by individual (non)taxpayers.
   

Edited January 16, 2008 by jbg

[M.Dancer]

Get a grip Morris, you get a half point at best for calling me on being a CO.

But you are not a CO. You are just pretending to be.

[M.Dancer]

What's really reprehensible is your implication that I'm loathsome because I object to war. Everything is political, especially with you it seems, but that has little if anything at all to do with how I feel.

What is loathsome is pretending you are a CO to score points. Consientious objecters are people with strong moral convictions. They did not try to avoid service or taxation. They simply refused to kill.

Yo on the otherhand, make a distinction between fighting overseas and fighting here. A true CO would not.

And your so called convcitions are phoney. Taking your position would mean that Canada would not have gone to Europe in the Second World War. But you would have approved combat if Canada was attacked at home.

You are a fraud.

[M.Dancer]

A few points:

1. The UN Charter relies on the armed forces of observing nations to enforce it; and
   
2. In a representative democraciy decisions about taxes are made by elected representatives, not by individual (non)taxpayers.
   

And given that the Afgan mission has complete UN authorization.....

[jbg]

And given that the Afgan mission has complete UN authorization.....

An added factor but not determinative. The US for example doesn't need a permission slip to invade Iraq when its interests dictate.

[M.Dancer]

An added factor but not determinative. The US for example doesn't need a permission slip to invade Iraq when its interests dictate.

No of course not but when someone trots out the UN as a reason not to fight terror....

[eyeball]

When you arrive at a fire, do you tell the screaming parents sorry we can't save your kids, because we are preparing for something else...

No, you'd say that if the house was clearly engulfed. The chief and crew also have a responsibility to keep themselves from becoming casulties too.

Good analogy, Afghanistan, Iraq etc as the burning house and the US as the hysterical parents. Sometimes restraining the parents is all that a fireman can or should do.

[james rahn]

Lets face it, the United States can pretty much do whatever it wants whenever it wants. Compared to other world powers throughout history, they're actually pretty benign. Arrogant and rich and uncaring much of the time, but still pretty benign.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The United States faces grave danger, and it needs its friends. I would prefer to be on the side of friendship.

[M.Dancer]

Lets face it, the United States can pretty much do whatever it wants whenever it wants. Compared to other world powers throughout history, they're actually pretty benign. Arrogant and rich and uncaring much of the time, but still pretty benign.

Arrogant maybe, but they got a few meters to go before they could qualify for a Parisean waitors job. Rich, certainly. Uncaring? Not a chance. When the world is in trouble. Americans dig the deepest. We should be so fortunate to have their wealth and our smarts...

[eyeball]

America is definitely a force for good in the world but that doesn't excuse the US military industrial complex, one of the gravest threats the world faces. I suppose if a person can succesfully edit that little bit out then yeah, everything is just rosy.

[jdobbin]

Here is some good news they finally agreed on the purchase of new transport A/C C130J.

C130J

They left out the final details on maintenance contracts. The Tories know a bad decision there can cost them major support if done the wrong way as it did to the PCs.

[jbg]

America is definitely a force for good in the world but that doesn't excuse the US military industrial complex, one of the gravest threats the world faces. I suppose if a person can succesfully edit that little bit out then yeah, everything is just rosy.

"One of the gravest threats the world faces"? Really? Just about every African country, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan et. al. are charnel houses and the US is bad? China still executes people under arbitrary charges, and North Korea spreads weaponry around the world.

Is your knowledge limited to what's spouted in Yonge Street coffee houses and espresso bars? Or what you learned at Concordia when Netanyahu tried to speak?

[james rahn]

"One of the gravest threats the world faces"? Really? Just about every African country, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan et. al. are charnel houses and the US is bad? China still executes people under arbitrary charges, and North Korea spreads weaponry around the world.

Is your knowledge limited to what's spouted in Yonge Street coffee houses and espresso bars? Or what you learned at Concordia when Netanyahu tried to speak?

I don't think eyeball was damning the US as a whole, but rather their military industrial complex. It's interesting that US defence spending (even in peacetime) roughly approximates their federal spending deficit. But hey, so what if poor people have no health insurance, right? They'll be the first to sign up and get killed whenever there is a war anyway. It's not like Canada's military procurement process isn't the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

Edited January 17, 2008 by james rahn

[jbg]

I don't think eyeball was damning the US as a whole, but rather their military industrial complex. It's interesting that US defence spending (even in peacetime) roughly approximates their federal spending deficit. But hey, so what if poor people have no health insurance, right? They'll be the first to sign up and get killed whenever there is a war anyway. It's not like Canada's military procurement process isn't the exact same thing on a smaller scale.

Our wages are, on balance, higher, and/or employers "provide" health insurance for most workers. The reason for the quotes is that the tax deductibility of such benefits to employers, coupled with their untaxed status as to employees, equals about a 60% (or more) subsidy by the Federal government to the cost of health care.

As the only world superpower, we have to maintain an industtrial capacity to support the military. We don't have the luxury of spending two years after war is thrust on us (as we did from December 1941 until a few months before the June 1944 Normandy invasion (the one that Paul Martin thought was on Norway) to gear up for war.

[Shakeyhands]

....few months before the June 1944 Normandy invasion (the one that Paul Martin thought was on Norway) to gear up for war.

Wow really? Got a cite for that? I'd like to read that one...

[jdobbin]

Wow really? Got a cite for that? I'd like to read that one...

He did say it. I don't have the cite readily available.

Of course, Bush refers to his Australian allies and Austrians. Same diff.

Edited January 17, 2008 by jdobbin

[weaponeer]

America is definitely a force for good in the world but that doesn't excuse the US military industrial complex, one of the gravest threats the world faces. I suppose if a person can succesfully edit that little bit out then yeah, everything is just rosy.

Here we go, the myth of the "US military industrial complex" again. Yes , the USA military that freed millions from Hiltler's grip, saved the world from Communisim and are standing up to the Islamic nuts of the world. They have fought and died for the safety & freedom of millions. The "US military industrial complex" has kept the democracies of the world free. Socialist hate the US, because the US defeated them in the Cold War. The world voted with it's feet, and socialism failed!!! Yes, the "US military industrial complex" destroyed the socialist empire, and thank God for that!! I would hate them too if I were a socialist!!

[weaponeer]

Here is some good news they finally agreed on the purchase of new transport A/C C130J.

C130J

Good to see, it's about time......