Gun Control

[M.Dancer]

4000.....Joking aside, I think if the police datamined the records and saw someone had registered 200 rifles...do you think they should investigate?

What if his name is Omar?

[Oleg Bach]

4000.....Joking aside, I think if the police datamined the records and saw someone had registered 200 rifles...do you think they should investigate?

What if his name is Omar?

Now you are being a provocateur.....Omar? come on now - create a straw man argument else where. Its time we stop creating problems for ourselves and behave realistically - all thought and concept generated through hate is clouded...better clean up your thinking and be of real service - this terror hysteria has ruined our society.

[guyser]

I am presently in Ont but do tend to spread myself between here and the prairies.

I have more than one lawyer and several accountants at my disposal for guidance in company matters.

I will tell you once more.

As I stated - for use on farm, ranch and private / leased land - we are a large holder of all aformentioned - there does not need to be any registration or licencing.

I 'd get a new lawyer then.

Every vehicle in Ontario must be registered. Cant buy a new one from a dealership without it being registered. Cant buy used without it being registered.

[AngusThermopyle]

Cant buy used without it being registered.

Thats odd, when I lived in Ontario I bought used vehicles, slapped a transit sticker on them and drove them home. Some I didn't register until quite a few months later. Is it possible you're confusing transfer of ownership with registration?

[AngusThermopyle]

I think if the police datamined the records and saw someone had registered 200 rifles...do you think they should investigate?

What if his name is Omar?

If he's not a collector then it could be a cause for concern, his name wouldn't really matter, don't you think so?

The question still stands however, what is a "reasonable amount of guns". And by whose standard will this reasonable number be determined? At present I'm not sure if there is anything on the books stating what a "reasonable" number would be, I may be wrong but I don't think I am.

[Borg]

I 'd get a new lawyer then.

Every vehicle in Ontario must be registered. Cant buy a new one from a dealership without it being registered. Cant buy used without it being registered.

I guess the local Chev dealer is a crook as well.

Borg

[M.Dancer]

If he's not a collector then it could be a cause for concern, his name wouldn't really matter, don't you think so?

The question still stands however, what is a "reasonable amount of guns". And by whose standard will this reasonable number be determined? At present I'm not sure if there is anything on the books stating what a "reasonable" number would be, I may be wrong but I don't think I am.

How then will the police know if he is a collector or not?

....I doubt there is anything that says x and above are not a reasonable amount.......

[guyser]

I guess the local Chev dealer is a crook as well.

Borg

In violation of the law, yes he is.

I never said plated , just reg'd , be it unsafe permit or plater permit, it has to be registered.

[Borg]

In violation of the law, yes he is.

I never said plated , just reg'd , be it unsafe permit or plater permit, it has to be registered.

Costs money to register - I think you might mean something else.

This dealer is far too large to want to get into trouble.

Mind you, we do pay in full.

He would love us to finance.

Borg

[AngusThermopyle]

How then will the police know if he is a collector or not?

The Police will know that he's a collector because he will already be registered as a collector. This requirement has existed for many years before the registry was even thought of. For instance, in Canada you can not own a fully automatic weapon, unless you are a registered collector.

I will reiterate, the registry does nothing to curb crime. It is a nice revenue generator though. I notice that no one has answered the question as to how it addresses the root causes of crime either.

[Borg]

Thats odd, when I lived in Ontario I bought used vehicles, slapped a transit sticker on them and drove them home. Some I didn't register until quite a few months later. Is it possible you're confusing transfer of ownership with registration?

I suspect you are on the money AT.

Whatever - it is straw man from G to divert from the topic.

No one has bothered us in years with our unregistered vehicles. And come to think of it I am a regular at the annual RCMP ball in a small town in Alberta. Do you suppose it helps us in Ont?

Bottom line - firearms registry - waste of money, people and resources.

Has never prevented a criome and has never solved a mystery.

Sell a registered firearm to someone - and the registration is now null and void. Move and the same thing.

Probably a high percentage of what is supposed to be registered is now inaccurate if only because of the above.

Borg

[guyser]

Thats odd, when I lived in Ontario I bought used vehicles, slapped a transit sticker on them and drove them home. Some I didn't register until quite a few months later. Is it possible you're confusing transfer of ownership with registration?

NO, no confusion on my part.Ownership is registration.

Anyone that allowed you to drive away with the vehicle is incredibly stupid. Anyone that does that, new or used , is looking to get raped.

Angus, you sell me a used car , and neither you nor I register it, then it is your responsibility and your liability.

I betting borg doesnt understand the issue. It seems he thinks plating a car is registering it, it isnt, one can get an unsafe permit. Afterall, how can he prove he owns it? A bill of sale? Nope, I still have a bill of sale for my 1988 Sable.....can I prove ownership with it? Nope.

[AngusThermopyle]

Ahhh, I see the point you're making. It is true that the ownership is the registration. You must do a transfer of ownership (your true bill of sale, you might say). As such when you transfer the ownership you are actually registering the car. Sorry I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Now, back to the subject at hand....anyone remember what it was?

[M.Dancer]

I will reiterate, the registry does nothing to curb crime.

I agree. I was never intended to curb crime. That has always been a red herring and some have swallowed it. It is first and foremost an intelligence tool and secondly a model for mismangement theory.

[Oleg Bach]

Ahhh, I see the point you're making. It is true that the ownership is the registration. You must do a transfer of ownership (your true bill of sale, you might say). As such when you transfer the ownership you are actually registering the car. Sorry I misunderstood what you were getting at.

Now, back to the subject at hand....anyone remember what it was?

Weapons of mass destruction are similar to weapons of singular distruction. You must beware of those that attempt to instill hysteria in order to control - usually the weak are against weapon ownership. Gun control is not about the control of weapons or the safe keeping of society at large - it's about control period! Usually inferiours attempting to control their superiours. People who own weapons are usually a traditional bunch who adhere to law and order - those who want to disarm a nation are not out assist and build a better society - but to oppress - who needs wormy sissy grils and boys running the show? If you let them have their way - they will out law any man that is muscular and over 200 lbs....of course they can always tazer those who they supposedly fear - this is about cowards who want power...if these anti-gun people truely loved and cared for their citizens - there would be evidence of a just society - seems that evidence is fleeting..as are the dreams of dominance of the strong..guns are not the problem - cowardice is the disease that infests and debilitates the nation..where are the real men - armed or unarmed? We are governed by the fearful - that's why so-called terrorist disrespect us - we are hetrofags.

[AngusThermopyle]

Gun control is not about the control of weapons or the safe keeping of society at large - it's about control period!

Finally! Something we can agree on. I think there may be a lot of truth to what you say in that statement.

As for Hetero fags, well maybe you should check out Alberta, not too many of them out here, mostly men who believe in direct action and getting the job done. I don't know though, maybe in Calgary or Edmonton. Big cities you know, lots of wussy guys more concerned with fashion and flash than getting the job done. (That last was facetious, well, sorta, maybe.)

[Wilber]

I 'd get a new lawyer then.

Every vehicle in Ontario must be registered. Cant buy a new one from a dealership without it being registered. Cant buy used without it being registered.

They only have to be registered if they are going to be used on public roads. Purpose built race cars aren't registered. They can't be because they aren't street legal. When cars go to a wrecker, there is no transfer of registration. If there was any intent to put them back on the street there would have to be. I am currently building one car using parts from another. I bought the parts car in Washington State and hauled it across the border. I have a the original registration and bill of sale but it never has and never will be registered in BC. If I owned a farm I could fix it up and drive it all I wanted as long as it didn't leave my property. It would be no different from a tractor. There is no requirement to register a vehicle if it is not going to be put on the road and it is not necessary to have a drivers license to buy a car.

[guyser]

They only have to be registered if they are going to be used on public roads.

Not as per Ontario law. They have to be plated and insured if on public roads. If you buy a used car it is registered...somewhere. If not to you , then to someone else.If you dont register it within 7 days (IIRC) then you are in violation of the law.

Purpose built race cars aren't registered.

You may have me on that one. I dont know. But they do have to carry liability insurance, or pay the track to be on theirs, or is included in your fee.

When cars go to a wrecker, there is no transfer of registration.

By your own admission they are already registered. When sent to a wrecker the registration is submitted to the Ministry for cancellation.

I bought the parts car in Washington State and hauled it across the border. I have a the original registration and bill of sale but it never has and never will be registered in BC. If I owned a farm I could fix it up and drive it all I wanted as long as it didn't leave my property. It would be no different from a tractor. There is no requirement to register a vehicle if it is not going to be put on the road and it is not necessary to have a drivers license to buy a car.

You are contradicting yourself. The car you brought across was already registered. The VIN might still show Wash state registraton, but it is registered.I imagine Customs looked at the VIN and it is on paper in their files, but dont know.

As for no requirement to register, there most certainly is.

Anyone of any age can buy a car, I know that. We just had a case where a 14 yr old crashed his newly bought car and killed his friend.

Edit to add: NEVER let someone buy your car without changing the registration first....NEVER, even if your mother is a saint. IF you do and that person is in an accident, maybe impaired..?...or not, prepare to pay the piper.

Edited December 12, 2007 by guyser

[Wilber]

It's not supposed to stop anything.

Then what good is it and why is it worth over a billion dollars?

Exactly. That's why guns should be tightly under a lock. A stolen car can be used for a pleasure ride, to carry stolen stuff from one place to another. A stolen gun is almost bound to be shot from. There's simply nothing else to be done with it.

I agree, guns should be kept under lock and key. Stolen vehicles are used to commit many crimes and on occasion are used as weapons in their own right. A stolen gun may or may not be used to shoot someone. Of all the restricted weapons out there, a comparatively small number actually get used to kill or injure someone.

Then they can go nuts and use the guns they obtained with legal license to do whatever they feel like? Guns should be registered no question about it. Anybody with more than reasonable number of guns should be talked to, on a regular basis. These just aren't your regular grown up toys.

People can go nuts at any time with anything. Do we register anything that can be used to kill. I'll echo what others have said, what is a reasonable number of guns in your book? I've known collectors with many old guns and they are probably a lot more responsible with the way they handle them than most licensed drivers are with their cars. I can see why they collect, there is a historical value to them and the craftsmanship in a lot of old weapons is a thing of beauty in itself.

[Wilber]

You may have me on that one. I dont know. But they do have to carry liability insurance, or pay the track to be on theirs, or is included in your fee.

Why would they have to carry liability insurance? They are not registered and not driven on the road. Yes tracks carry insurance and certainly part of your entry fee would go to pay for it but you and your vehicle wouldn't be named on the policy.

You are contradicting yourself. The car you brought across was already registered. The VIN might still show Wash state registraton, but it is registered.I imagine Customs looked at the VIN and it is on paper in their files, but dont know.

As for no requirement to register, there most certainly is.

Why would I register a vehicle that can never be put back on the road? It's an object, not a car.

Edit to add: NEVER let someone buy your car without changing the registration first....NEVER, even if your mother is a saint. IF you do and that person is in an accident, maybe impaired..?...or not, prepare to pay the piper.

I agree. I never turn over a set of keys until I have a stamped copy of the transfer in my hand.

[Guest American Woman]

Another Day, another anonymous shooting by an individual who's snapped, and git themselves a high-powered rifle.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/

I say enough is enough... and it shows why Canada must not slack off on more gun control legislation.

Why does this government want to repeal the Gun licensing registry? Because it is "tough on crime?" How is that helpful? It sounds like more American-style ideas coming from our current government, who show in so many ways now their intentions to make Canada's laws the same as in the United States?

I say F the NRA...

And today, another shooting.

6 shot after exiting Vegas school bus

LAS VEGAS - Six young people were shot Tuesday after they got off a school bus that left a high school, and two were critically hurt, police said. Gunshots rang out in northeast Las Vegas just before 2 p.m., Officer Bill Cassell said.

Something has got to be done about this problem. It truly is getting out of hand. Is it our gun laws or our culture, though? Would changing our laws make a difference? Has the gun registration made a difference in Canada? From what I'm hearing, gun crimes are becoming a bigger problem in Canada these days.

[guyser]

Why would they have to carry liability insurance? They are not registered and not driven on the road. Yes tracks carry insurance and certainly part of your entry fee would go to pay for it but you and your vehicle wouldn't be named on the policy.

On the contrary. They would have to carry Commercial General Liability , but not Auto liability. They would most definitely be named on a lawsuit should your car fly over the screen and injure or kill someone.That you may get released in court does not count. By that time, you may have spent $10,000 to $30,000 already. I would rather pay the $1000 up front in the form of a policy.

Why would I register a vehicle that can never be put back on the road? It's an object, not a car.

Because it is a car and cars have to be registered. Mandatory branding of a car is the law here. Be it a write off, imported from flood zones , salvagers, importers etc.Consumer protection is the reason.

If it is stolen, then you can use your registration to show ownership. We are talking miniscule dollars, I think it is $20.

[myata]

Then what good is it and why is it worth over a billion dollars?

Because it's a valueable tool that will help police, with right approaches and time, to curb crime. #1 by saving valuable resources and #2 by designing early warnings for certain individuals. I agree that it shouldn't have cost a billion, and it wasn't originally planned to. It speaks to efficiency of implementation rather than necessity for the registration itselt. Billion dollar arguments is yet another strawman Harper crowd is using to divert attention from their real goal - to weaken gun control regime in this country. They'll never say it the open, as usual.

People can go nuts at any time with anything. Do we register anything that can be used to kill.

No only most dangerous things that represent significant risk for the society in the wrong hands. We restrict the use of cars; even some breeds of dogs; explosives; guns should have a prime spot on this list too.

I'll echo what others have said, what is a reasonable number of guns in your book?

Certainly anything above adequate number for intended use. A professional law enforcement officer would be able to give better guidelines. And, if in doubt, it wouldn't hurt to ask. Responsible owner wouldn't mind answering a few questions, knowning the risks they represent in the wrong hands. One more time, owning a gun is not a right - in Canada - yet.

I've known collectors with many old guns and they are probably a lot more responsible with the way they handle them than most licensed drivers are with their cars. I can see why they collect, there is a historical value to them and the craftsmanship in a lot of old weapons is a thing of beauty in itself.

I see this a legitimate use and never said otherwise. Nevertheless there's nothing wrong with the police knowing where large numbers of working guns are located. I'm sure responsible owners wouldn't object to it either.

[Wilber]

Because it's a valueable tool that will help police, with right approaches and time, to curb crime. #1 by saving valuable resources and #2 by designing early warnings for certain individuals. I agree that it shouldn't have cost a billion, and it wasn't originally planned to. It speaks to efficiency of implementation rather than necessity for the registration itselt. Billion dollar arguments is yet another strawman Harper crowd is using to divert attention from their real goal - to weaken gun control regime in this country. They'll never say it the open, as usual.

Nonsense, when are you going understand that gun registration is not gun control? Criminals will never register the guns they use to commit crimes. That is a thousand million dollars that could have been spent on real police work getting real criminals off the street. Blowing that money to get honest people to register their guns is the real waste of valuable resources because it is only honest people who will register them or turn them in.

Certainly anything above adequate number for intended use. A professional law enforcement officer would be able to give better guidelines. And, if in doubt, it wouldn't hurt to ask. Responsible owner wouldn't mind answering a few questions, knowning the risks they represent in the wrong hands. One more time, owning a gun is not a right - in Canada - yet.

Actually it is a right, so is driving a car. I'm tired of people saying that such and such is a privilege not a right. If you meet the criteria to do something, you have a right to do it and it cannot be taken away from you without cause. Governments cannot grant privileges to its citizens, they can only restrict rights for the common good or for cause with the approval of its citizens. You could grant me the privilege of using your car. It is a privilege because you don't need a reason to refuse me the use of your car. The government has to have cause to not let me use my car or you your car. It is your right until you forfeit that right by your own actions.

I see this a legitimate use and never said otherwise. Nevertheless there's nothing wrong with the police knowing where large numbers of working guns are located. I'm sure responsible owners wouldn't object to it either.

Nothing wrong with it but not worth a thousand million dollars, particularly when bad people who own large numbers of working guns aren't going to register them.

[Wilber]

On the contrary. They would have to carry Commercial General Liability , but not Auto liability. They would most definitely be named on a lawsuit should your car fly over the screen and injure or kill someone.That you may get released in court does not count. By that time, you may have spent $10,000 to $30,000 already. I would rather pay the $1000 up front in the form of a policy.

Possibly but again, nothing to do with vehicle registration.