Taliban controlling most of Afghanistan, not losing

[Army Guy]

Lets put the Taliban in perspective. What are we really dealing with? To understand fully we will have to use our imaginations.

No, imaginations are not required, The taliban are not a bunch of Red Necks from northern ont, not even close, They make these good old home boys look like girls from the church choir. Chear leaders for the jump rope team....Comparing them to the Hell's angels was the closest politically correct comparison i've read so far....but even this does not go far enough.

These guys have very good military training, most are seasoned combat vets, they are fantical in what ever they do, Thier training , thier killing , thier approach to this whole war...How many hell's angels would rather die fighting than be captured. How many Hells angels would slowly cut a man's head off with a dull knife, then mount the head on a pike to act as a warning to others. How many would cut a little girls hands off with an axe, just for going to school, then sit down and have a good laugh and joke about how hard she screamed.........There are thousands of examples that prove they are "SCUMBAGS" barly worth the bullet to send them to Allah....

It's time we stopped thinking of the Taliban as backwards, confused, poor , and to borrow a phrase from argus "Brown people"....And instead looking at them as they should be... thru a rifle scope...These scumbags, will and have committed acts that would make a seasoned Nazi vet puke. All in the name to hold on to what the once had, total power of the people. They will not stop until they are eliminated or achieve that goal.

But we knew that before going over there, before our troops got off the planes....we knew that when the Majority of Canadians stood behind this mission.

It would be more accurate to compaer the Taliban to Canada's Hell's Angels. They are thugs and bullies.

What you have read is one report, Now your calling for us to pull pole , pack up your tents we are going home....Senlis says we can't win this damn thing, and we take this as gosple because they have a office in Afgan.... because they are military experts in this type of operations, because they have talked with WHO ? the Taliban, the local people, the soldiers WHO ?...Because they just know, it's freaky...

Give me a break...in fact give us all a break. It is the winter offensive and it's winding down, Yes NATO has taken casualities as it does every winter, and every spring...But the Taliban are lossing more people than NATO , or the AFGAN army or police are....How that translates into winning i don't know...

[trex]

the Taliban are lossing more people than NATO , or the AFGAN army or police are....How that translates into winning i don't know...

It doesn't translate directly into "winning". In fact there's efforts to negotiate with the Taliban happening now, including ideas like asking them to participate in the government. This is coming from Karzai himself. I'd guess this to be upsetting to soldiers who are in the fight, knowing that the evil taliban they are supposed to be eliminating might in the end come to legitimacy. If I were there, it surely would piss me off. What are we fighting for then??? Someone ask Peter Mackay to explain it, without moving his lips.

And second, its not just from one article. I also provided info about a White House Report that says virtually the same thing.

No disrespect to the troops intended.

[M.Dancer]

The senlis council has also suggested that NATO's presence increase and even take the fight into PAkistan.

The Senlis Council suggested the Taliban insurgency was getting stronger and exercised influence over half of Afghanistan's land mass. In a startling declaration, the group, better known for its development and aid research, also advocated attacks on insurgent training areas in northern Pakistan.

http://canadianpress.google.com/article/AL...Dvx1CbboQ5od9ow

and.....

Among the report's major suggestions for ensuring the stability of Afghan President Hamid Karzai's government was the doubling of NATO troop numbers to 80,000. The size of the current force in the war-torn region is about 41,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/11/21/senlis-nato.html

[Army Guy]

Here is a few other reports, i put them out there not to disprove your sources but rather to show just how easy one could get a report these days.

Macleans

US General

Gen Hillier

UK GEN

CSIS

We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight for "your" hearts and minds without them this War is lost, regardless of how well our troops do on the battle field.

Why is this frustrating, Because the soldiers are putting everything they have into this mission including thier lives...only to be lossing this whole thing at home...we are not blaming anyone...just want you to make up your damn minds....either support us and the mission...or demand our return,...either way the People of Canada need to decide and take action...one way or the other....until then we will continue to do the job you asked us to do with 150 % of our efforts...

[myata]

We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight for "your" hearts and minds without them this War is lost, regardless of how well our troops do on the battle field.

What you seem to be failing to understand:

"we are winning the war ... we are rebuilding country.."

Are we going to live their lives for them too?

[myata]

We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight ...

However, thanks for a frank admission, I think this is exactly the question we (all Canadians) need a serous debate on. Namely, should we be fighting (whether winning or otherwise) in other people's wars? When we went there, it was to oust a regime that was supposedly helping our enemies. This changed to helping the government we installed with security, and now to taking direct part in this government's war against insurgency. Somehow it happened without much of our understanding or debate. Later better than never.

[Army Guy]

myata:

What you seem to be failing to understand:

"we are winning the war ... we are rebuilding country.."

Are we going to live their lives for them too?

Just how can "WE" be doing anything together...when the Majority of Canadians do not support this war, or any efforts that go along with it. Nor do they see any rush to take any action, be it withdrawal, or support the mission.

No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything.

However, thanks for a frank admission, I think this is exactly the question we (all Canadians) need a serous debate on.

Now we need another debate on whether we are winning or not....We already know we ( soldiers)are winning and doing our part....it is on the home front that YOU are lossing and NOT doing your part....

Namely, should we be fighting (whether winning or otherwise) in other people's wars?

This is confusing was'nt the time to debate whether we should go or fight or hand out teddy bears before we told the troops "start your engines", and they loaded aircraft and ships. or is this a typical Canadian thing to do...act now debate later,...

When we went there, it was to oust a regime that was supposedly helping our enemies. This changed to helping the government we installed with security, and now to taking direct part in this government's war against insurgency. Somehow it happened without much of our understanding or debate. Later better than never.

Actually the debates did happen in fact serveral debates have happened since our troops have arrived in Afgan. and you want more, fair enough lets debate it in true Canadian fashion...i mean there has been one form of debate about this topic since our arrival over 6 years ago...I'm just curious has all this debate come to any form of concenous, anything at all.

So while the left has thier panties in a knot about the mission being extended really by the time the debate even decides something, 2011 will already come and gone.... more soldiers will have died and the only thing your debate will have decided is where they can piont the fingers at to shove all the blame...

It is the Soldiers that are stuck in the middle...It is the soldiers that are frustrated and srceaming ...just decide something please....support the mission so we can win this thing and go home....or pull us back home...that is what YOU are failing to understand...

But hey i know there has to be a debate first....

Edited November 26, 2007 by Army Guy

[Oleg Bach]

myata:

Just how can "WE" be doing anything together...when the Majority of Canadians do not support this war, or any efforts that go along with it. Nor do they see any rush to take any action, be it withdrawal, or support the mission.

No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything.

Now we need another debate on whether we are winning or not....We already know we ( soldiers)are winning and doing our part....it is on the home front that YOU are lossing and NOT doing your part....

This is confusing was'nt the time to debate whether we should go or fight or hand out teddy bears before we told the troops "start your engines", and they loaded aircraft and ships. or is this a typical Canadian thing to do...act now debate later,...

Actually the debates did happen in fact serveral debates have happened since our troops have arrived in Afgan. and you want more, fair enough lets debate it in true Canadian fashion...i mean there has been one form of debate about this topic since our arrival over 6 years ago...I'm just curious has all this debate come to any form of concenous, anything at all.

So while the left has thier panties in a knot about the mission being extended really by the time the debate even decides something, 2011 will already come and gone.... more soldiers will have died and the only thing your debate will have decided is where they can piont the fingers at to shove all the blame...

It is the Soldiers that are stuck in the middle...It is the soldiers that are frustrated and srceaming ...just decide something please....support the mission so we can win this thing and go home....or pull us back home...that is what YOU are failing to understand...

But hey i know there has to be a debate first....

Canada will leave this barren place just like a hundred invading forces have left though out history - once our government and elite warish hobbiest are bored - there will be a pull out and Afghanistan will go back to what it always was- and will always stay --- We fail to realize that some nations and people do not measure time as we are fixated on - whether the year be 1207 or 2007 - it makes no difference- Afghanistan is one of the ancient places where time goes to die" - just a waste of blood and money..they don't want us so why do we want them? Reminds me of a man that is overly pushy and covetess of a woman who has no interest in his suitorship - yet he persists in harrassing the female - like a dumb dog...Personally I don't care what you folks do with Afghanistan..just don't come looking to the average Canadian father to hand over his first born son to amuse you with his crippling or useless death.

[trex]

If as you say the majority of Canadians disapprove of the war, it would appear the army was hijacked by a leadership that has a separate agenda from the very public they represent. The fact that the public does not really understand the war, hears little about it is because the government remains tight-lipped about the situation. This does not help matters in terms of public support, but they may not care anyway. The leadership holds the cards, increasingly they tell us what to do, not the other way around. And perhaps Canadians are too smart to believe such a propaganda campaign as is necessary to promote this war. In any case it's the government that that is failing you, at home.

I think the real problem, isn't so much what Canadians "want" the army to do. The more serious problem is other countries avoid meeting their commitment, and leave our soldiers out on a limb, at greater risk. I worry that Canadian troops are being used to do someone elses share of the dirty work, while others stand well back and avoid it.

And now with murmurings of reconciliation between the government of Aghanistan and the Taliban, one wonders if we were just stupid to rush into war, without getting solid commitments from others and a clear exit plan.

Ironically, while Harper demands consensus and equal cooperation before making any committment to global warming, he doesn't take a similar stance toward other countries doing their fair share in Afghanistan.

---

There is a another bigger lesson here, about the tactics that promote lasting political change... when we are only seen as invaders, when we cannot avoid the inevitable co-lateral damage to civilians and homes, how can we not be feared and despised by the local populace? Do you not think that the enemy is smart enough to take advantage of the psychological war? They speak the language, they wear the dress, they know the people in charge. In this arena they hold all the cards. Going in with the army to attack is self defeatist. And we see this happening now, despite all the harsh stories the people still help the Taliban. Its becoming clearer that the west is taking the wrong approach.

[Fortunata]

It's time we stopped thinking of the Taliban as backwards, confused, poor , and to borrow a phrase from argus "Brown people"....

I don't think that's the impression even the NDP are trying to sell to Canadians.

Senlis says we can't win this damn thing, and we take this as gosple because they have a office in Afgan....

I think Senlis said we can't win this as we now are fighting it. Big difference.

We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight for "your" hearts and minds without them this War is lost, regardless of how well our troops do on the battle field.

Why is this frustrating, Because the soldiers are putting everything they have into this mission including thier lives...only to be lossing this whole thing at home...we are not blaming anyone...just want you to make up your damn minds....either support us and the mission...or demand our return,...either way the People of Canada need to decide and take action...one way or the other....until then we will continue to do the job you asked us to do with 150 % of our efforts...

Are we winning the war or just the battles? If the Taliban have a never ending source of fighters willing to die, can we ever completely get rid of them?

As far as support goes, why should you care if some don't support the mission? Most of those support the troops, they know you are only doing as you are ordered to do. If anyone is getting the non-support it is the government that seems to not care what the public thinks. It's that more than anything else that is creating this frustration and anti-war backlash.

No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything.

Totally agree with that.

Now we need another debate on whether we are winning or not....

Part of this whole problem is that we don't know what winning means. Because the government has not defined this term for the public we wonder, does it mean a new water pump in a village or does it mean completely ridding Afghanistan of all Taliban presence. Another government failure.

or is this a typical Canadian thing to do...act now debate later,...

The Canadian government way is dictatorial, they decide, they inform then there is on-going debates because it never really was in the beginning. Regardless of whether it was properly debated in the beginning, or since the debate would continue as it is in USA, Great Britain and Australia. People are people with various pov's so debate will reign where there is freedom to debate.

So while the left has thier panties in a knot about the mission being extended

You continually blame the left as garbage beneath your feet, but I know as many righties as lefties that are against this war. The left are against the war because of human abuses/deaths; the righties are against because of the coffers that go out of their pockets into an issue they can't hope to profit from. Well, that's a bit simplistic but you get the idea that there are people of every stripe for it and against it.

It is the Soldiers that are stuck in the middle...It is the soldiers that are frustrated and srceaming ...just decide something please....support the mission so we can win this thing and go home....or pull us back home...that is what YOU are failing to understand...

You have enough people supporting you and the mission that it should not be of worry to you whether or not all do. If you want to be mad at someone be mad at the government for either not telling us anything or giving us platitudinous soundbites that make us not believe a word they are saying.

Canada will leave this barren place just like a hundred invading forces have left though out history -

That's a problem. If we are going to do that we are better off just to come home now.

If as you say the majority of Canadians disapprove of the war, it would appear the army was hijacked by a leadership that has a separate agenda from the very public they represent. The fact that the public does not really understand the war, hears little about it is because the government remains tight-lipped about the situation. This does not help matters in terms of public support, but they may not care anyway. The leadership holds the cards, increasingly they tell us what to do, not the other way around. And perhaps Canadians are too smart to believe such a propaganda campaign as is necessary to promote this war. In any case it's the government that that is failing you, at home.

I think the real problem, isn't so much what Canadians "want" the army to do. The more serious problem is other countries avoid meeting their commitment, and leave our soldiers out on a limb, at greater risk. I worry that Canadian troops are being used to do someone elses share of the dirty work, while others stand well back and avoid it.

Exactly. Another huge failure of this government is to actually believe in this war and the betterment of Afghani people so they can promote a vision to other NATO countries. If they were doing this because it is right and just they would convey that. Instead Steve, imo, sees this as just an opportunity to play with the big boys just for inclusion.

Ironically, while Harper demands consensus and equal cooperation before making any committment to global warming, he doesn't take a similar stance toward other countries doing their fair share in Afghanistan.

Right on, good point. See above. It's all a matter of posturing for this government. Their hearts and minds are not in it for the right reasons and it shows in public and NATO support.

There is a another bigger lesson here, about the tactics that promote lasting political change... when we are only seen as invaders, when we cannot avoid the inevitable co-lateral damage to civilians and homes, how can we not be feared and despised by the local populace? Do you not think that the enemy is smart enough to take advantage of the psychological war? They speak the language, they wear the dress, they know the people in charge. In this arena they hold all the cards. Going in with the army to attack is self defeatist. And we see this happening now, despite all the harsh stories the people still help the Taliban. Its becoming clearer that the west is taking the wrong approach.

The people we help don't all think of us as invaders (imo) from the reports that actually come from the people. The Taliban use fear tactics, threats, torture to get their support from the Afghani pop; we don't use the same methods. Removing that threat, establishing law, order, good governance (I'm not sure that is even possible) and some serious infrastructure rebuilding ... who do you think they will want around? It's a long row to hoe but to give that up for the weeds .. well we just could be there again in the not too distant future.

[myata]

No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything.

Are you sure that "we" know better than them, what to live and work for? Otherwise, surely, they would be able to fight and and win their battles, without us doing all the work.

Afghanis won't be Canadians no matter how much do goodie propaganda (and money; and sadly, lives) we sink into it. When Afghanis will know what they want, they won't need our army to do the work for them. We only just need to get out of their way, to let them make this decision. And accept it, even it's not exactly what we may be planning for them.

[Fortunata]

myata do you think the regular Afghani wanted to live like they lived under the Taliban? I don't think their lifestyle was their choice.

If it's you or them, I choose Pepsi!

Edited November 26, 2007 by Fortunata

[capricorn]

I think the real problem, isn't so much what Canadians "want" the army to do. The more serious problem is other countries avoid meeting their commitment, and leave our soldiers out on a limb, at greater risk. I worry that Canadian troops are being used to do someone elses share of the dirty work, while others stand well back and avoid it.

And now with murmurings of reconciliation between the government of Aghanistan and the Taliban, one wonders if we were just stupid to rush into war, without getting solid commitments from others and a clear exit plan.

Ironically, while Harper demands consensus and equal cooperation before making any committment to global warming, he doesn't take a similar stance toward other countries doing their fair share in Afghanistan.

That's my concern also. Either NATO is an alliance or it is not.

The government did though approach NATO on the non-participation of some member states and the tendency of some to stick to the safer regions of Afghanistan. I did a quick search and found these articles on Canada's appeals to NATO. Looks like no one responded except for the US who increased their number of troops.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2006/11/17/nato-pitch.html

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...70920/20070920/

As an aside (not directly to you trex), the term afghani refers to the currency of Afghanistan. The proper term for a citizen of Afghanistan is Afghan. This was pointed out on a forum I was reading.

http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/facts.html

[myata]

myata do you think the regular Afghani wanted to live like they lived under the Taliban? I don't think their lifestyle was their choice.

I don't know what regular Afghani thinks. And for that reason, I'd leave it up to regular Afghanis to choose which way they want to leave. Not by imposing on them meaningless (in their view) democracy. But by leaving them alone. When they have made their choice, we can offer our help. It's up to them to take it or refuse it. Not up to us to tell them what is good for them. That'll be same old imperialism, by another name. But quite certainly, with the same result.

BTW what do you mean "not their choice"? Whose then? Have Taleban come from another planet? Did they have zombies to fight for them, to defeat not one, but two governments supported by foreigners (communists, then mojaheddins)? The question is, do we want to maintain that rosy illusion that everybody wants to be just like us, and if they behave as though they don't they only need a bit of persuasion (or liberation - choice of term is immaterial). Of course the cost of sticking to rosy illusions has been proven, historically, to be high, while their efficiency - quite the contrary.

Edited November 26, 2007 by myata

[Fortunata]

Nobody is saying they want to or should live like us. I believe great effort is being made to work within their cultural beliefs (not Taliban imposed beliefs) not force them to behave unculturally.

And as far as leaving it up to Afghani's to decide ... that's what they were trying to do under Soviet rule, under Taliban rule. That's why there has been decades of fighting and getting no where. When the Taliban set up government it was by gun, by force. If you looked like you didn't agree with their doctrine they tortured you, killed your family. That's how they left it up to average Hamid to decide how to live.

There weren't choices. Now, maybe with our help, they will have those choices freely, and not at the end of a rifle barrel.

[Oleg Bach]

Nobody is saying they want to or should live like us. I believe great effort is being made to work within their cultural beliefs (not Taliban imposed beliefs) not force them to behave unculturally.

And as far as leaving it up to Afghani's to decide ... that's what they were trying to do under Soviet rule, under Taliban rule. That's why there has been decades of fighting and getting no where. When the Taliban set up government it was by gun, by force. If you looked like you didn't agree with their doctrine they tortured you, killed your family. That's how they left it up to average Hamid to decide how to live.

There weren't choices. Now, maybe with our help, they will have those choices freely, and not at the end of a rifle barrel.

What makes our way of life more civilized that theirs? I stood on the court house steps of a local legal monopoply and an old lawyer said to me - "This place is barbaric - there are a few evil men who have the woman run it for them, it has just go a VEENER of civilization and underneath rot".

Maybe it's about time we re-form and repair our own house before we go off re-building and re-arranging a house that is not ours..such pushy vacarious behaviour on our part - We are just like crazed social workers who attack and destroy the white red neck culture of Northern Ontario believing they are inferiour - when being a red neck is a culture - and a culture held in contempt by the so-called multi-culturalists- Afghanistan has a right to be socially unexceptable - to be rude to be primative - what makes us think that we are better - Look at the papers today - the economic centre of Canada - Toronto now boosts of being the centre of poverty in Canada - super rich and dirt poor - something is wrong with this picture..we had better look in the mirror.

[Fortunata]

What makes our way of life more civilized that theirs?

Which way of life of theirs are you referring to? The horrors of living under the Taliban? That was their way of life and it wasn't very civilized - that's why there was fighting to get rid of that imposed "civilization." So when you people make that comment keep in mind that they did not choose how they were told to live. At least, if we are even reasonably successful there, Afghani's can live, for the first time in how long, live they way they wish.

We are not imposing anything on them unless giving them freedom to determine their own future the way they wish it is imposing.

[trex]

We are not imposing anything on them unless giving them freedom to determine their own future the way they wish it is imposing.

Interestingly it may be, if you try to really understand the mind of conservative funamentalists. They see freedom to make any choice you want, as a fatal step towards western liberalism. To obey Allah is to willingly restrict yourself from certain freedoms, its as simple as that.

Islam has been there for a long time, far as I know. Islam was strictly followed before the taliban came. So who are they really in the grand scheme of things in Afghanistan? I suspect that the difference in attitude towards freedoms between groups like taliban and others, the mujahideens, or the mullahs, is not that great. And if thats true, the taliban and their attitude ARE the people of Afghanistan.

[myata]

The horrors of living under the Taliban?

...

We are not imposing anything on them unless giving them freedom to determine their own future the way they wish it is imposing.

That's exactly the problem - applying our own moral norms and standards to people half world away. I.e presuming that they want and have to be like us.

...

Surely, if the current government is what (majority of) Afghanis truly want and wish, they should be able to defend it no less than Taleban could upset it. Really one should be able to see it: one of the two groups (Karzai vs Taleban) is stronger. Stronger because more people support it with greater will. If Karzai is stronger, he would be able, by and large, to control the country without 50,000 foreign troops. If he's weaker, there's no point is supporting the weak side in a strange country with completely different traditions and moral and culture. Because it's bound to collapse the moment we leave.

You see now that the same scare "if we leave now Taleban will take over" is at great odds with our being there in the first place. Because we shouldn't be there unless invited by a government supported by the people - support that is showing in its ability to control the country, rather than performing meaningless (for the great majority of population) pseudo democratic ritual.

As of now, if my understanding is correct, there's not a single province that is managed by the government forces without significant foreign presence. Far from "democracy", this, for all can say, isn't even an independent state, main criteria of which is the ability to control its territory. These are simply puppet governments of the foreigners that will last only as long as the supply of resources and foreign troops exists and will inevitably collapse the moment lifeline is cut. I want to hope that whatever comes afterwards will be better than what Afghanis have experienced over the last two decades, but there's no guarantees of that. This is because our presence there, far from solving any problems, only increases hostility between the sides. The sides that eventually will have to find a way to coexist for the country to move forward.

[bush_cheney2004]

It doesn't translate directly into "winning". In fact there's efforts to negotiate with the Taliban happening now, including ideas like asking them to participate in the government. This is coming from Karzai himself....

It is perfectly consistent to "negotiate" with the Taliban while killing as many as possible.

[Army Guy]

If as you say the majority of Canadians disapprove of the war, it would appear the army was hijacked by a leadership that has a separate agenda from the very public they represent. The fact that the public does not really understand the war, hears little about it is because the government remains tight-lipped about the situation. This does not help matters in terms of public support, but they may not care anyway. The leadership holds the cards, increasingly they tell us what to do, not the other way around. And perhaps Canadians are too smart to believe such a propaganda campaign as is necessary to promote this war. In any case it's the government that that is failing you, at home.

I think that the Average Canadian knows enough about this War to make a sound judgement. Yes i will agree with you that our government has done a shitty job in regards to keeping Canadians informed. But there is more than enough agencies out there providing them with info. and if they wanted to be inform they could...

What i do disagree with is your statement " they may not care anyway" , I think they do care just to lazy to do anything about it.

The leadership holds the cards, increasingly they tell us what to do, not the other way around.

Funney how people always come back with that comment, The government speaks we just listen....we are powerless...So let me ask you this, How can a professor, and some BC peace group not only get our government to listen, but to take action....How is that possiable when they do the talking and we do the listening...

And perhaps Canadians are too smart to believe such a propaganda campaign as is necessary to promote this war.

They sure fell for it hook line and sinker at the begining of the war. When the war was supported by the majority of Canadians...

In any case it's the government that that is failing you, at home.

Is it, our history is full of examples of our government being forced to listen to the people, and take action. (After all it is how they survive another day to scrap the pork barrel)

the professor is just one example of how one man grabbing our government by the nuts and squezzing until they act...

So why is it i blame the Canadian people for lossing the war on the home front...for failing to grab our government by the nuts and squezzing to make yourselfs heard...

I mean if one professor can do it, the majority of Canadians should be able to squash a few sets anyways...or one would think...Maybe i'm disillusioned

But what really pisses of soldiers is that the Majority will piss and moan about the War, but they are to lazy to do anything about it....without thier voice we can not persue the war as it should be ( better equipment, more troops etc..)...nor can we end it and withdrawal as they want it to.

So the soldiers are caught in the middle forced to fight a war with no real tangable amounts of new equipment coming NOW....nor is there any signs of withdrawal... either way it is the failure of the people of Canada for not doing anything...Can you see why we are frustrated...

It is not that we begrudge your opinion, or we fault you from having a different one than us(soldiers)...

what we hate is everyone moaning and bitching about the war and yet sitting on thier hands doing nothing....

For years we have gone on UN peacekeeping missions and forced to observe, sit on the side lines and watch as the WAR rages on, as both sides commit crimes and not really accomplish anything Bosina was a prime example of that, and those early years of bosina are still fresh on most soldiers minds...

Now we are taking an active role, we see the results of our actions and it is making a difference to those that really count in all this the Afgan people. Soldiers are not interested in polictical goals or nations objectives, what makes the difference to us is that we are accomplishing something worth our effort and sacrafice.

I'm telling you this , so you can see why this mission is so important to those that are taking part in it..

Yes, there are alot of places within the world that are more deserving of our attention, that could bennifit more from our efforts and tax dollars. But in Afgan we already have our foot in the door we have already invested so much of our time and effort and sacrafice that those facts alone should be worth a second look.

Yes Afgan does have alot of baggage that goes with it, corrupution, outside nations underlining our efforts, the list goes on, but governments come and go, what does remain constant is the Afgan people.... And those are the ones we are trying to help...those are the ones our soldiers willing to sacrifice thier lives for...and if we are willing to give so much to this mission why can't the people of Canada at least take some action of thier own...be it support this mission they sent us on, or recall us back home...

I don't think that is to much to ask, after all it was the people of Canada that asked us to suit up and go fight, we've kept our end of the bargin.

[White Doors]

myata...

LOL

I don't know what regular Afghani thinks. And for that reason, I'd leave it up to regular Afghanis to choose which way they want to leave. Not by imposing on them meaningless (in their view) democracy

Do you see how this is a very dumb thing to say? You either know what Afghani's think or you don't. You need to make up your mind. Not change on a whim to undermine the mission. Be honest with yourself. You oppose the war for Ideological reasons and there is nothing anyone can say to change your mind(s).

Ideology is fundamental sometimes as demonstrated here. The Afghani's WANT us there as shown by poll after poll. The Taliban have lost each and every battle with Nato troops. There is alot of reconstruction going on in Afghanistan - tangible results have been shown. But that is not enough for those whom are bent too far to the left. They don't like it and that's it. Nothing will change their minds about it.

The rest of us need to move on and explain to the mainstream. I think that is the same mistake that the government is making.

Edited November 27, 2007 by White Doors

[trex]

Army Guy, I feel your pain. I understand what you're saying, it is injustice. The avaerage "Joe" is politically complacent, satisfies with simple things in life. A bottle of beer, a hockey game. The war is just another story in the papers. As long as the belly is full and we are thoroughly entertained, most could not care less about real news and politics.

There is also a culture, especially seen in US news and other media, that if you are anti-war and speak out about it, if you display your opposition to the war you are un-patriotic. Villified, even in some places. The anti-war movement is castrated by media propaganda that says, "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists". So its another reason there is no outcry against the politicians, who daily reassure us that everything is going well and all is taken care of. The message, Don't worry about it, leave this to us. And remember to buy. Buy and be happy.

I am disappointed to hear about the problems with equipment, sounds like they want a war fought on the cheap. Same thing was happening in the US with the lack of armor on the cars, and we heard about troops improvising by adding plate steel and whatever junk they could find laying around.

These politicians are a bunch of rich punks. They have no concept of what is necessary, they don't need to face the question of survival in a hostile foreign land and they never will. Born with a silver spoon in their mouth and they now are in charge, making decisions for me and you.

Guy Fawkes... you were an idiot

[myata]

myata...

LOL

Do you see how this is a very dumb thing to say? You either know what Afghani's think or you don't.

You mean, you were reading their minds? Or, they had a history of democratic governments subverted by evil Taleban? Or, at least, any record of any serious genuine attempt to achieve democracy?

If so, perhaps you could share you knowledge with everybody? Because for all I know, Afghanistan is an early feodal society that is simply not developed enough to be anywhere near democracy. It's a sheer delusion to think that a societ can be changed in its tracks no matter history, traditions or condition. That delustion, on the part of neo con crowd that used to dominate US administration, is the only reason we're there. Otherwise, Kosovo solution would have worked just fine: we'd make them understand, with as strong means as necessary, that they shouldn't be helping terrorists, and leave them alone otherwise.

[White Doors]

You mean, you were reading their minds? Or, they had a history of democratic governments subverted by evil Taleban? Or, at least, any record of any serious genuine attempt to achieve democracy?

If so, perhaps you could share you knowledge with everybody? Because for all I know, Afghanistan is an early feodal society that is simply not developed enough to be anywhere near democracy. It's a sheer delusion to think that a societ can be changed in its tracks no matter history, traditions or condition. That delustion, on the part of neo con crowd that used to dominate US administration, is the only reason we're there. Otherwise, Kosovo solution would have worked just fine: we'd make them understand, with as strong means as necessary, that they shouldn't be helping terrorists, and leave them alone otherwise.

I see, so you DO know the minds of Afgani's then? See, I was confused because you said it was impossible to know the average Afghani mind??? I see you crossed this hurdle that you threw up rather easily.

You are dismissing all evidence to the contrary and are prepared to say here that Afghan's are too primitive for democracy.

Why? Too feeble minded do you think? Are they just too violent? Or do you think that they would rather kill their opponets than debate them? When did you become so racist? Was it the same time you presumed that you could speak for the average Afghani and have no reason to provide any proof of your ascertations?

Please elaborate. thanks!