Imagine the draft was brought back in the USA.....

[fellowtraveller]

Imagine the US reinstated a draft for young people to fight a war somewhere, doesn't matter where...... In the 60s and 70s a fair number of young American men came to Canada, purportedly in protest against US involvement in Vietnam.

Canada let them in for an indefinte time and did not force them to leave, some still remain.

But what would Canadas response be today? Their response to US military deserters who apply for refugee status has been quite unequivocal: they are turfed out because they are in no danger of torture or death in the US, they are not true political refugees.

But what is the US brought back the draft and bunches of young men and presumably women showed up at the border seeking asylum as before.....

[M.Dancer]

But what would Canadas response be today? Their response to US military deserters who apply for refugee status has been quite unequivocal: they are turfed out because they are in no danger of torture or death in the US, they are not true political refugees.

I tend to agree. Any US citizen who wishes to emmigrate is welcome to pursue the normal channels. But simply letting in the hoi poloi because they claim they don't support theirn democratic government's policies.....what would their loyalty be to our democratic government's policies?

The proper way to serve your country with honour without fighting is to pursue a path of concientious objection. That isn't an overnight decision nor is it easy, but at least it is legal and honourable.

[Drea]

But what would Canadas response be today? Their response to US military deserters who apply for refugee status has been quite unequivocal: they are turfed out because they are in no danger of torture or death in the US, they are not true political refugees.

Deserters are quite different than draft dodgers. A deserter is a person who is already serving in the armed forces for which he/she has voluntarily signed up. A draft dodger doesn't want to serve and has not served nor voluntarily signed up. Why should they be forced to do so?

Edited November 14, 2007 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

Why should they be forced to do so?

Because as citizens we are obliged to follow the laws set out by a legal and democratic government.

Conscription in that way is no different than taxation.

[bush_cheney2004]

...But what is the US brought back the draft and bunches of young men and presumably women showed up at the border seeking asylum as before.....

By law, Selective Service registration and conscription does not apply to females in the USA. Draft dodgers should be sent packing back to face the music....deserters should just be shot.

[Guest American Woman]

Draft dodgers should be sent packing back to face the music....

By "draft dodgers," do you mean conscientous objectors?

Conscientious objection has a unique place in United States history. In fact, the tradition of refusing military service - and the recognition of that right - can be traced back to America's founding fathers, some of whom were pacifists fleeing oppression for their beliefs in Europe. Several of the original colonies, including Pennsylvania, Delaware and New Jersey, were founded by the Quaker pacifist William Penn. The framers of the U.S. Constitution even considered including an exemption from military service for conscientious objectors in the Second Amendment. This clause was omitted because they did not envision the need for creating a standing army. At the onset of the Revolutionary War, George Washington issued a draft order, which was a call to "all young men of suitable age to be drafted, except those with conscientious scruples against war.”

Link

[bush_cheney2004]

By "draft dodgers," do you mean conscientous objectors?

No, I mean anyone who avoids Selective Service obligations and/or conscription according to law. Objectors have a legal protocol to follow, and can complete service in other ways.

[M.Dancer]

No, I mean anyone who avoids Selective Service obligations and/or conscription according to law. Objectors have a legal protocol to follow, and can complete service in other ways.

In Canada they (conscription avoiders) were called Zombies.....they didn't get the girls...or jobs...or ration books. They got a pale complexion by living in their aunts attics....

[Trial-and-Error]

Because as citizens we are obliged to follow the laws set out by a legal and democratic government.

Conscription in that way is no different than taxation.

Whatahoot! Do you really believe that the U.S. is a democracy? Good grief, that is funny. If someone objects to being sent to kill and slaughter those of another country which has done one's own country no harm, then that illustrates that person has both a brain and a conscience. I welcome such types into this country with open arms. Please try to remember that war is fought by the plebes for the benefit of the rich, but if you believe in American propaganda which is second to no other country, then I feel for you and all others who believe as you do.

[margrace]

Because as citizens we are obliged to follow the laws set out by a legal and democratic government.

Conscription in that way is no different than taxation.

Yep follow the laws like good little leemings, and do we have democratic government, just make a protest agains something you see as wrong and you will soon find out. There are many ways to punish people who push the limits and others may benefit from their fight but they still get punished.

[Hydraboss]

Yep follow the laws like good little leemings, and do we have democratic government, just make a protest agains something you see as wrong and you will soon find out. There are many ways to punish people who push the limits and others may benefit from their fight but they still get punished.

Yep, it called the penal system. Anyone who doesn't want to follow laws set out in a democratic country (or what passes for one on the world stage) is free to move to Mexico...or Chile.

If the draft were reinstated in the US, I'm sure our country full of bleeding hearts would gladly welcome any draft dodgers. Why not? We already welcome murderers, etc from just about every country on Earth. Why would they be any different?

As for deserters....second vote for "just shoot them".

[M.Dancer]

Whatahoot! Do you really believe that the U.S. is a democracy?

My mistake..it's all those elections and divisions of power down there that confused me.

[M.Dancer]

I haven't voted because it is framed in a black or white question.

I welcome all who come here legally to avoid conscription. Legally. And if Canada ever enacts conscrioption again, I expect they will either register or move.....

[Smallc]

Yep, it called the penal system. Anyone who doesn't want to follow laws set out in a democratic country (or what passes for one on the world stage) is free to move to Mexico...or Chile.

If the draft were reinstated in the US, I'm sure our country full of bleeding hearts would gladly welcome any draft dodgers. Why not? We already welcome murderers, etc from just about every country on Earth. Why would they be any different?

As for deserters....second vote for "just shoot them".

I don't know about Chile, but I know Mexico is a democracy.

[Guest American Woman]

Whatahoot! Do you really believe that the U.S. is a democracy?

My mistake..it's all those elections and divisions of power down there that confused me.

Silly me. I too must be confused. I could have sworn I live in one of the greatest democracies on earth. Good thing Trial-and-Error came along to set me straight. Now I'm wondering just what kind of government my country has.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't agree with the idea that the country I was born in can jail me for not participating in military service. That seems to be a pretty clear obstruction to my pursuit of happiness.

For that reason, I would welcome conscientious objectors and illegal draft dodgers provided they applied through the refugee system.

As for the current crop of Americans seeking asylum, these are people who signed on the dotted line then changed their minds. Not the same thing.

[M.Dancer]

I don't agree with the idea that the country I was born in can jail me for not participating in military service. That seems to be a pretty clear obstruction to my pursuit of happiness.

The pursuit of happiness is not right.** But you are certainly free to pursue happiness in the military. But you would be encouraged to do it in your own free time.

**written by Thomas Jefferson, it is thought that Jefferson accidently included those words while daydreaming about his then current paramour, Happiness Jefferson. Had Thomas Jefferson a word processer instead of a quill and ink it would have been rendered:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Property

.

[fellowtraveller]

I don't agree with the idea that the country I was born in can jail me for not participating in military service. That seems to be a pretty clear obstruction to my pursuit of happiness.

For that reason, I would welcome conscientious objectors and illegal draft dodgers provided they applied through the refugee system.

As for the current crop of Americans seeking asylum, these are people who signed on the dotted line then changed their minds. Not the same thing.

Of course, you'd have to extend this offer of refuge to any "conscientious objectors and illegal draft dodgers " who applied as refugees - not just Americans. It would only be fair, after all.

The implications are interesting. I wonder how many Turks, who are just one of many countries with mandatory military service, would come to Canada. They have until age 38 to complete their mandatory service. I wonder how many would opt to move to the open doors of the Canada you envision, simply by showing up and saying "I am persecuted". They'd have a slam dunk, de facto case for residency. Is that your intention?

[Guest American Woman]

Countries with mandatory military service:

1 Albania

2 Austria

3 Belarus

4 Bermuda

5 Brazil

6 Bulgaria

7 Chile

8 China (PRC)

9 Cyprus

10 Denmark

11 Egypt

12 Finland

13 Germany

14 Greece

15 Iran

16 Israel

17 Korea, South

18 Malaysia

19 Mexico

20 Norway

21 Poland

22 Russia

23 Serbia

24 Singapore

25 Sweden

26 Switzerland

27 Taiwan (ROC)

28 Turkey

29 Ukraine

Edited November 14, 2007 by American Woman

[Smallc]

My mistake..it's all those elections and divisions of power down there that confused me.

Silly me. I too must be confused. I could have sworn I live in one of the greatest democracies on earth. Good thing Trial-and-Error came along to set me straight. Now I'm wondering just what kind of government my country has.

I also wonder. Your elected body can pass whatever it wants, but it doesn't matter because your president will just Veto it.

[fellowtraveller]

Only 29?

I thought there would be more.

Still, that should bring many millions of "conscientious objectors' in from all over the world. Followed by their families, naturally. And all on welfare to begin, since of course refugees are not required to have skills or languages.

I wonder if other groups would be welcome, since the legal basis for allowing draft dodgers is that they have not broken any laws in this country, and we do not have anything resembling conscrioption at the moment?

For example, our 'age of consent' is still 14 years. That means that a sexual pradator of age 40 can have consensual sex with a child of 14 without legal problems. Most other Western countries are 16 for age of consent. So, given that the foreign sexual predator hasn't broken any laws here, and will be jailed and harassed for breaking a law that isn't illegal here.... couldn't they apply for refugee status too?

[M.Dancer]

I also wonder. Your elected body can pass whatever it wants, but it doesn't matter because your president will just Veto it.

the veto has its limites though and isn't absolute.

When the americans created the presidency, they envisioned a King who wasn't mad, who would curb the xcess of the mob...so they gave him powers to do that, but unlike the King they modelled after, thiose power were absolute.

[Guest American Woman]

I also wonder. Your elected body can pass whatever it wants, but it doesn't matter because your president will just Veto it.

And Congress can override the President's veto, which it did very recently.

The United States has a great system of checks and balances with three branches, each with their own authority, with the legislative consisting of the House where each state is represented according to population and the Senate where each state has equal representation-- not to mention the powers/authorities left to the states. I do believe it's one of the greatest democracies in the world.

Bottom line. Anyone who says the U.S. is not a democracy is showing ignorance on their part.

Edited November 14, 2007 by American Woman

[Topaz]

I think it depends on the war they are being drafted to. Bush's war into Iraq, was just that, a war for oil, to make Iraq the centre of the US military in the Middle-East as part of controlling the world. I don't see how killing thousands of people in Iraq and thousands of US soldiers being left with one arm, leg, or brain was worth going into Iraq to change the leadership. Its cause almost 4000 military lives and that not countring the ones that went over and came back to kill themselves to avoid going back! Bush was totally wrong in this war and anyone who wanted to come to Canada or any other country should be welcomed and I hope Cheney and Bush gets theirs unless Bush leaves for Paraguay before they can impeach him or a returning soldier goes on a hunting spree like happen to the return Nam vets!

[Higgly]

Why should draft status have anything to do with it? If they qualify, they qualify. I am certainly not in favour of Canada acting like the US draft police. We have enough problems with them trying to enforce their dumb-ass drug laws up here (Marc Emery et al).