Conservatives bringing back death penalty for Canadians abroad

[Wilber]

If you commit a crime knowing that the death penalty is an option, why should I have any sympathy? People are stupid. They know when you kill someone in the US or say China, you may face death. Too bad.

Let me tell you a little secret.

Don't murder people in death penalty jurisdictions and you won't be killed!!!

You must think that every country with the death penalty has and infallible justice system compared to ours. If the death penalty was still in effect in Canada. Milgaard, Marshal and Moran would all be dead. They didn't murder anyone.

[Wilber]

If a Canadian is traveling in a foreign country, it is that person's responsibility to be familiar with the local laws. Break them and you have to pay the price. The extent of the Canadian government's responsibility is to try to ensure that that person receives due process....that's it. The taxpayers of Canada have NO RESPONSIBILITY to pay for anything past that investigation. I certainly don't want any more convicted criminals coming to (or back to) our soil. As it is, we basically give them a free pass (and free cable) in this country. If they die overseas, that's their problem, not ours.

Canada may have mistakenly done away with capital punishment, but we have no responsibility to try to change other countries' minds on the subject. If you don't want to be subject to the death penalty, stay out of jurisdictions where that is a possibility.

There are very few countries in this world that don't do their best for their citizens when they are caught up in a foreign country's legal system and few of them are worth living in or visiting.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Wilber

[myata]

Others - like already mentioned Iraq and Afghanistan, our new etalons of democracy?

Kudos.

I'm a bit doubtful though if this country should aspire to get into the club.

No, this is patently false. The following western "democracies" retain capital punishment:

Brazil

Guatemala

Dominica

Trinidad and Tobago

Jamaica

...and others

[myata]

As much as I disagree with the use of the death penalty, you cannot expect another government to behave according to your own internal laws.

Gee, is it so hard to understand, really? It's not about making the other government to behave ..., it's about Canadian government, which we elect, doing the absolute minimum to attempt to spare our citizens the fate they would never (fingers crossed) experience in this country. One more time, slow and clear: death penalty is not a legal practice in Canada (yet). It's the responsibility of the Canadian government to try to spare its citizens the sentence they wouldn't have gotten in this country.

I agree with Ralph Goodale who said that now we're getting a "sneak preview of what's actually going on in their minds". First, take us off guard by tax cuts promises. Then, throw in this test ballon, to see how the public will react to so-con ideas. Everybody who disagrees with death penalty and other so con "ideas" should make a big bug fuss about this now, unless we want to see it coming to our communities.

[myata]

If you commit a crime knowing that the death penalty is an option, why should I have any sympathy? People are stupid. They know when you kill someone in the US or say China, you may face death. Too bad.

Let me tell you a little secret.

Don't murder people in death penalty jurisdictions and you won't be killed!!!

Did you forget to mention carrying small amounts of drugs in some death penalty jurisdictions? Including those that could have been planted? Or simply allegations proven guilty in some democratic courts?

What about other situations though? Like that guy that had his cell stolen and after an argument with a local ended up in a jail. Surely he should have known local customs and so on. Nothing to do with can government. What about two women in ontario who were declared murder suspects in democratic Mexico?

[M.Dancer]

There are very few countries in this world that don't do their best for their citizens when they are caught up in a foreign country's legal system and few of them are worth living in or visiting.

I think we should do our best for all canadians convicted opr standing trial for a felony.....make sure that their lawyer is sober....that the appeals process is working, etc etc....and after the trial to make sure that their stay is humane and conforms with normal western standards....but I don't think it's in anyones benefit that Canadians in US prisons get preferential treatment....no one is above the law.

.....but the feds should really hammer in the point...

DO NOT MURDER IN THE USA..... DO NOT SMUGGLE DRUGS IN ASIA

[noahbody]

Did you forget to mention carrying small amounts of drugs in some death penalty jurisdictions? Including those that could have been planted? Or simply allegations proven guilty in some democratic courts?

What about other situations though? Like that guy that had his cell stolen and after an argument with a local ended up in a jail. Surely he should have known local customs and so on. Nothing to do with can government. What about two women in ontario who were declared murder suspects in democratic Mexico?

Number of statements above that are relevant: 0

[Smallc]

I think someone said it best a little earlier. There is never 100% certainty that you have the right person. If you put them to death, there is no going back.

[noahbody]

I think someone said it best a little earlier. There is never 100% certainty that you have the right person. If you put them to death, there is no going back.

I think you left out "in every single case." Or do you think someone else put the heads in Dahmer's fridge and he just didn't notice they were there?

[Smallc]

I think you left out "in every single case." Or do you think someone else put the heads in Dahmer's fridge and he just didn't notice they were there?

huh?

[noahbody]

huh?

Didn't you mean to say you can't be 100% certain in every single case?

[myata]

They did say case by case yes, so we will have to see how that works out I suppose.

What this is saying is that Harper decided that Canada has to change its position from, before, "we do not support death penalty in any situation" to, now, "we may support it (tacitly - by refusing to act) on a case by case basis". Or by the way the death penalty itself is applied on case by case basis very rarely - nothing to worry about, as per geoffrey, unless you murder. Or find yourself in a really rare case when you're wrongfully accused - and convicted. Or in one of those democratic countries with strange customs and laws, on the wrong side of the law (intentionally or perhaps not). In which cases, good luck to you (in your future life).

Also note that while the first position is based on votes in parliament and public support, the only foundation for the new one is Harpers (and fellow so-con) private opinions and beliefs. They never held any public consultation or debate on it and now are avoiding the issues with open and transparent "no comments" statements.

This is what I call "contempt of democracy". Period.

These are no funny things. If they do it now when they are in a deep minority, one could only guess what projects they're envisioning for the time when they get (god forbid) full control.

[capricorn]

First, take us off guard by tax cuts promises. Then, throw in this test ballon, to see how the public will react to so-con ideas.

I wonder how long it took the Conservatives to hatch this nefarious plot.

If the tax cuts were announced to overshadow the death penalty test balloon, that's one expensive balloon.

[capricorn]

These are no funny things. If they do it now when they are in a deep minority, one could only guess what projects they're envisioning for the time when they get (god forbid) full control.

IMO the Conservatives are in full control as we speak. Notice the Liberals failing to take the opportunity of defeating the government on the mini-budget. Where is the loyal opposition?

[Higgly]

Gee, is it so hard to understand, really? It's not about making the other government to behave ..., it's about Canadian government, which we elect, doing the absolute minimum to attempt to spare our citizens the fate they would never (fingers crossed) experience in this country. One more time, slow and clear: death penalty is not a legal practice in Canada (yet). It's the responsibility of the Canadian government to try to spare its citizens the sentence they wouldn't have gotten in this country.

I agree with Ralph Goodale who said that now we're getting a "sneak preview of what's actually going on in their minds". First, take us off guard by tax cuts promises. Then, throw in this test ballon, to see how the public will react to so-con ideas. Everybody who disagrees with death penalty and other so con "ideas" should make a big bug fuss about this now, unless we want to see it coming to our communities.

OK. I went back and looked at the thread from the beginning and I misinterpreted it as a thread solely about the execution of convicted murderers in the US.

I agree that the government should continue to go to bat, as it hsa done for many years, for Canadians sentenced to death in other countries. This means trying to have them brought back home to serve sentences here.

Considering that smuggling marijuana in Malaysia or Singapore (in those countries bringing any amount at all across a border is smuggling) will get you the death penalty and that the majority of Canadians favour decriminalization or legalisation, execution is so far outside the bounds of our values that something should indeed be done.

While US justice system adheres to a fairly high set of values and standards, the same cannot be said for many other parts of the world. You can be executed in China, for example, for a hell of a lot less than murder and the odds that you will be given a fair trial are poor.

[Wilber]

I think we should do our best for all canadians convicted opr standing trial for a felony.....make sure that their lawyer is sober....that the appeals process is working, etc etc....and after the trial to make sure that their stay is humane and conforms with normal western standards....but I don't think it's in anyones benefit that Canadians in US prisons get preferential treatment....no one is above the law.

.....but the feds should really hammer in the point...

DO NOT MURDER IN THE USA..... DO NOT SMUGGLE DRUGS IN ASIA

And yet other countries which we would consider civilized, Britain, Australia, New Zealand and even the US among others, do go to bat for their citizens in those situations. What club are we interested in joining?

Iran has an elected government. Do we ignore the plight of a Canadian sentenced to death under Sharia law in Iran? It is after all an elected government acting under the rule of law.

Day says they will no longer act if a person is convicted in a democratic country using the rule of law. The only country in the world which would meet our standards when it comes to democratic institutions using the rule of law still using the death penalty is the US. If he means the US he should be honest and say so.

[myata]

I wonder how long it took the Conservatives to hatch this nefarious plot.

If the tax cuts were announced to overshadow the death penalty test balloon, that's one expensive balloon.

No, rather someone decided that maybe it's a good opportunity to throw this in with the tax cuts, to check public's response to deeply so con ideas. Just in case, of course.

And if one considers it in the long perspective it may still pay off. There're many areas which went out of control of late and where good conservative practice could be applied. Like abortion (some backbenchers were making noises about it before they were silenced); gay rights; non existing crime problem.

[Shakeyhands]

If they do it now when they are in a deep minority, one could only guess what projects they're envisioning for the time when they get (god forbid) full control.

This would be the *scary* *scary* *scary* and rightfully so.

Just thought I would beat our Bluth to it.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Shakeyhands

[bush_cheney2004]

...Day says they will no longer act if a person is convicted in a democratic country using the rule of law. The only country in the world which would meet our standards when it comes to democratic institutions using the rule of law still using the death penalty is the US. If he means the US he should be honest and say so.

Pure speculation....as mentioned earlier, several democratic nations besides the US still impose the death penalty.

[noahbody]

Considering that smuggling marijuana in Malaysia or Singapore (in those countries bringing any amount at all across a border is smuggling) will get you the death penalty and that the majority of Canadians favour decriminalization or legalisation, execution is so far outside the bounds of our values that something should indeed be done.

Once again, this has to do with murderers. A lot of the speculation on this thread is due to a statement from the media, not the government. The government has clearly stated "murderers."

[M.Dancer]

Considering that smuggling marijuana in Malaysia or Singapore (in those countries bringing any amount at all across a border is smuggling) will get you the death penalty and that the majority of Canadians favour decriminalization or legalisation, execution is so far outside the bounds of our values that something should indeed be done.

The segment on the news that I saw had the spokesperson say that canada would not go out of the way for those condemned in democrati countries that have the rule of law.... so i assume the heroin smugglers in China and Indonesia as well as rapists in Saudi Arabia and boy buggerers in Nigeria will still be looked after.

Now given that the number of democratic nations with up and up legal systems that have capital punishment as an option can be counted on one hand, for all intents and purposes we are talking only about the US

[bush_cheney2004]

....Now given that the number of democratic nations with up and up legal systems that have capital punishment as an option can be counted on one hand, for all intents and purposes we are talking only about the US

Probably, but not confirmed. It is little wonder the "we" be talking only about the US....what else is new? Nevertheless, a perfectly good democracy in Japan still has the death penalty. So please send Paul Bernardo to Tokyo once he is paroled in Canada.

[old_bold&cold]

First off, I do not support the government bringing home prisioners who are sentenced in other countries, to serve their time here. They broke the law in the other countries and so they should serve their sentence there, it is that simple. As for asking for clemency on the death penalty goes, they can ask but that is as far as it should go in this. We should not be meddling in the internal afairs of foreighn countries who are democratic and have courts that rule on laws written in that countries justice system. If there are any injustices, that seem apparent then yes our government should seek to fine out why and what has caused these and take action only on a case per case issue.

The rest of this stuff in this thread is just political garbage being used to change the channel away from the sad melt down of the Liberal party's inner most people. I can see why they would want this to happen. But face it, we are all being used once again by the Liberals, to eb tricked in looking the other way, when they want to be left in the shadows to try and cover up things they would rather us not see. But that is done all the time by all parties I guess.

This really is a non issue and the fact that it has now taken nearly a week of people dwelling on this, is really a good indication thta it has worked to some degree. What this policy change has done is nothing more then say that asking for Clemency for Canadian prisoners, is not and should not be an automatic thing. First off, if it becomes automatic, it then reduces the importance of those it is applied to. If we only use this whne there are questions about the law and how it was applied, then when we do ask it, it will have more weight. In countries like China where to be sentenced to death means you have 24 hours to make any appeals before you are shot dead, rally means that you want this to have as much weight as it possibly can. If it is something done automatically the Chineese will automatically dismiss it.

I thing that the method and the reasons for why this change has been made are really grounded in solid judgement, and are the best for all involved. The case of this guy from Alberta, is not one of if he is innocent, as he has admitted his guilt. It now is one of the severity of sentencing, so it really is not an isue the Canadian Government, should be involed in, as it has no standing in the internal laws of a foreign country. All comment on this are just rabble about people having issues of the death sentence. They should go to the USA and protest there, not here, where we already have agreed not to use the death penalty. People need to go where their voices will make a difference, and here is not that place.

[Smallc]

Didn't you mean to say you can't be 100% certain in every single case?

Wasn't that implied?

[jdobbin]

First off, I do not support the government bringing home prisioners who are sentenced in other countries, to serve their time here. They broke the law in the other countries and so they should serve their sentence there, it is that simple. As for asking for clemency on the death penalty goes, they can ask but that is as far as it should go in this. We should not be meddling in the internal afairs of foreighn countries who are democratic and have courts that rule on laws written in that countries justice system. If there are any injustices, that seem apparent then yes our government should seek to fine out why and what has caused these and take action only on a case per case issue.

No one has asked that the person in question be transfered back to Canada. That is a lot of Tory mischief.

The consistent Canadian policy since 1976 and agreed to by all parties has been that Canada does not support the death penalty as a punishment for its citizens. In keeping with that tradition, the Canadian government advocates for its citizens when they are charged with capital offences and asks that the sentence be commuted to life in prison.

Harper has unilaterally changed the policy that has been around since 1976. Even Tory supportive newspapers like the National Post has said at the very least, this matter should be taken up in Parliament.