Electric car maker charges Ottawa blocking its sale in Canada

Wilber · October 27, 2007

The problem with present day electrics is battery technology is just not advanced enough. No problem with electric motors. Locomotives, earth movers and plenty of other things which move heavy stuff are diesel electric. The electric motor provides the propulsion but the power source is a generator being driven by a diesel, not a battery. There are several reasons for that. If you want to make a fortune with electric vehicles, forget about designing cars, come up with a better battery. So far the only other option is the fuel cell but then there is that pesky fuel problem again. How do you produce and store the hydrogen required to feed them? There may be some advances in Li batteries coming which will make electric cars more practical but I think hybrids are the only cars using electric drive systems that we are going to see for some time.

Those of us who were around when Ralph Nader started all this with "Unsafe at any Speed" know that the drive to todays safer cars was forced on manufacturers by government legislation. Now we are supposed to throw all that out for someone who can't meet those requirements just because his car is electric and those manufacturers who have spent hundreds of billions of dollars developing the much safer cars we drive today are protectionists who are victimizing this poor guy. Ya right.

There is no status quo in the auto industry, it's one of the most competitive markets there is on the planet, just compare todays vehicles with those of ten years ago.

I'm sure there is a future for electric vehicles, but not this one, not yet at least. Be honest now, how many of you would buy one of these things and if you wouldn't why would you expect anyone else to.

Wilber · October 27, 2007

most 'low speed' vehicles have on board means to cap speed available... the reason? as i indicated in my previous post, its the only way to get these light vehicles past grueling saftey standards that are designed to help protect drivers from getting driven into by a frickin hummer!

Actually it is there to protect them when they drive into a frickin hummer. The frickin hummer is not speed limited.

If this thing only has a 55 KM range at 40 KPH, I'd hate to speculate what it would be at 60 KPH. 30 KM if you were lucky I bet.

bush_cheney2004 · October 27, 2007

There is no status quo in the auto industry, it's one of the most competitive markets there is on the planet, just compare todays vehicles with those of ten years ago.
I'm sure there is a future for electric vehicles, but not this one, not yet at least. Be honest now, how many of you would buy one of these things and if you wouldn't why would you expect anyone else to.

All very true...today's automobiles are marvels of technology, safety, and reliability. Engine management systems have come a long way, and psuedo-hybrids have demonstrated real market penetration (people actually buy them!). True hybrids (a Prius will only travel a few miles on battery alone) are being used in some places with a mind to store and balance the power demands better than today's peak/low cycles.

Jury is still out on hydrogen, but Canadian firms like Hydrogenics are satisfying the niche demand for fuel cells when true ZERO emissions are desired. I'm happy to own 20,000 shares.

godzilla · October 27, 2007

well, i'm here! and i want one! my commutes are typcially less that 4 kms! and if your're driving a 1 tonne pickup through my neighborhood behind me then 40kmph is fine!!

as an avid bicyclist, i know that it does not require a lot of energy to get from point A to point B.

again, the prius is an awesome vehicle, a friend of mine just got an electric scooter thats also awsome... he removed the speed capping device.

freedom of choice on our roads i say! if we're moving in the wrong direction (with bigger and bigger vehicles) then lets change the direction... now!

it just really doesn't make sense to me when people support what i see on the roads today... at any cost. gridlock of huge vehicles, with one driver in each (about 2 tonnes per user), sitting there going nowhere burning fuel in 4 litre engines!

heck, even if we don't go electric... i've really wanted one of the imported kei trucks from japan. 660 cc pick up trucks (http://www.allamericanminitrucks.com/gallery). people have to face the facts that 'consumer demand' is predominantly a bunch of garbage. its the big auto makers who decide what the market is going to offer! but i could go on for hours about that in another post...

the fact is that the automobile has done more harm to us than good. in other countries where the full size automobile has not defined our living spaces then shopping and services are within walking distance... if you've gone and bought a house in the suburbs thats miles away from the closest box store then... have fun!

Edited October 27, 2007 by godzilla

Wilber · October 27, 2007

True hybrids (a Prius will only travel a few miles on battery alone) are being used in some places with a mind to store and balance the power demands better than today's peak/low cycles.

I might consider a plug in hybrid when they come available, until then I'm sticking with diesel.

Wilber · October 27, 2007

well, i'm here! and i want one! my commutes are typcially less that 4 kms! and if your're driving a 1 tonne pickup through my neighborhood behind me then 40kmph is fine!!

If you want to pony up 14 grand for something you can only drive in residential neighborhoods without getting run over (if you are lucky) and be on the receiving end of a ton of road rage, fill your boots. I don't think you will have much company.

bush_cheney2004 · October 27, 2007

I might consider a plug in hybrid when they come available, until then I'm sticking with diesel.

I'd like to convert a Prius just as a garage project, but the masses can't typically do this. California is a hotbed of PHEV activity and battery research, and there is government money to get on with it (for zero emissions).

http://www.calcars.org/howtoget.html

For typical combined highway/city driving, a Prius is not much better for mileage than my wife's Corolla, because the engine engages at about 43MPH. Prius is much better in the city at slower speeds, but it is faster than this "glorified golf cart".

godzilla · October 27, 2007

its seems pretty straight forward to me...

do we want to be a society that has the power to be inovative in our choices regarding personal transportation? do we want to take advantage of high technology and be cool!?

or do we want to be a society of tank drivers?!

how about the trex? (http://www.go-t-rex.com/) fastest thing on three wheels... with fuel economy!

again, we get 'golf carts' and 'tanks' because we aren't demanding better!

Wilber · October 27, 2007

its seems pretty straight forward to me...
do we want to be a society that has the power to be inovative in our choices regarding personal transportation? do we want to take advantage of high technology and be cool!?

or do we want to be a society of tank drivers?!

how about the trex? (http://www.go-t-rex.com/) fastest thing on three wheels... with fuel economy!

again, we get 'golf carts' and 'tanks' because we aren't demanding better!

s

There is more high technology in our vehicles than anything else we use on a daily basis.

The Trex looks like a riot. I assume it qualifies as a motor cycle. An old concept using using modern technology.

Moggy

kimmy · October 27, 2007

its seems pretty straight forward to me...
do we want to be a society that has the power to be inovative in our choices regarding personal transportation? do we want to take advantage of high technology and be cool!?

or do we want to be a society of tank drivers?!

how about the trex? (http://www.go-t-rex.com/) fastest thing on three wheels... with fuel economy!

again, we get 'golf carts' and 'tanks' because we aren't demanding better!

From what I gather, the issue here is not that the "Zenn" is electrically powered, just that it sucks. As much as some people would like to make this about "the Man" oppressing new technology, I'm unconvinced.

Few people would drive this lemon anyway, for reasons that have already been elaborated at some length.

The electric car will never be a success if all that is offered is golf-carts that only dorks and grandmothers would drive. Nobody else would be caught dead in this thing.

An electric car that *everybody* would want:

http://www.teslamotors.com/

That's how you get people interested in electric cars. \\ -k

old_bold&cold · October 27, 2007

That is a good site Kimmy. I was involved in my youth with putting a 50 HP electric motor in a VW chasis. As I was a mechanic at the time, it was someting I was into. We did mange to get the thing to go mid 11 seconds in the 1/4 mile at 165 MPH. Ellectric cars just have amazing constant torque and depending on the power source, can out rev any other kind of engine, other then jet turbines. There is no need for a properly designed electric car to be under powered, once you get reasonable power sources to drive them. The main problem is that the faster you make them go the more energy they take. The efficiency of electric motors is way higher then any other interal combustion engine.

I also like the Tesla badge on that link as I am a huge fan of Tesla and his ideas that we use every day, but never give a moments thought to who really made it possible. Edison would never have gone very far if he had not employed Tesla, and then screwed him on the patents. Too bad Tesla died penniless. His Ideas for unlimited electrical power so plentiful it would not need to be mettered, and of course his Daeth ray for the military. There are many more things he was about.

Fortunata · October 27, 2007

Here is an excerpt from the ITcar site (Dynasty):

http://www.itiselectric.com/index.asp

What is a Low Speed Vehicle (LSV)?
A LSV is a motor vehicle classification that complies with U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and Transport Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations. The IT vehicle exceeds all regulatory and safety standards with features such as halogen headlamps, rear tail and brake lights, back up light and alarm, turn signals, three-point seat belts, automotive safety glass, windshield washer/wiper and side and rear-view mirrors. LSV’s can operate on roads with posted speed limits of up to 35mph (60kph), at a speed not to exceed 25mph

The thing that puzzles me is that both Zenn and Dynasty said they follow all the rules and regulations that TC requires but TC keeps coming up with new different hurdles. If it meets it meets. The question again is why? And why did Canon say it didn't meet when that is not the case?

Regardless of whether you or anyone on here would buy one why wouldn't we be given the option?

godzilla · October 27, 2007

i'll state what i believe to be the most important point in this matter again one more time and everyone can ponder it at length....

why are 'low speed' vechicles mandated by government to cap their speed at 40kmph!?

isn't it just a little fishy that that is the speed at which people will refrain from purchasing one? so say, if speeds were capped at 60kmph then wouldn't the possible market expand tremendously?

Wilber · October 27, 2007

The Tesla is very interesting but it does have a base price of 98K. If it can actually go for 245 miles between charges (somewhat skeptical about that one) the range isn't that bad although I would hate parking for a few hours to refuel every couple of hundred miles on a long trip.

It seems that range is a big problem for electrics used on the highway and performance is a problem for city cars. The Zenn's 55 KM range wouldn't be a big problem for a city car particularly if there were plug-ins where you worked or shopped. There would also be a good business opportunity for people to design plugs that can't be pulled by mischief makers and cords that can't be stolen for their copper content by druggies. The performance is the biggest problem. I'd be scared to death driving a car that was only capable of 40 KPH in city traffic and didn't pass even basic crash tests. For about a grand more I can buy something like a base Nissan Versa with 122 HP a six speed manual with excellent fuel economy and a five star crash rating. No brainer for me.

Edited October 27, 2007 by Wilber

Wilber · October 27, 2007

why are 'low speed' vechicles mandated by government to cap their speed at 40kmph!?

Because they don't meet safety standards for vehicles that go faster.

M.Dancer · October 31, 2007

There are retirement and resort communities all over thge southern US where they have special pathways for golf carts......the bombardier version scoots along at around 35K.....but costs around 15grand in US pesos.....

Fine for the gated community, but not for the T-Can or even the Bayview Extension

margrace · October 31, 2007

The problem seems to be speed, when I was a kid I rode in Model T.s some of them would not got up a straight hill going forward but had to be backed up. An interesting ride for a kid.

Well now the world is in speed mode, do you have your funeral planned because that is the only thing you are heading for and all the speed in the world will only get you there faster. It would be nice to stop and smell the roses once in a while.

When you get to be fify then you become redundant at your job don't you, watch all those brighty young people coming on. that is where all the speed gets you.

GostHacked · October 31, 2007

We have 'fast lanes' (left most lane) and slow lanes. The only time I can see one bitching about an electric or slower vehicle is outside of twice daily rushhour.

What do you do now when you get behind a slow vehicle... or a slow driver for that matter? YOu wait for a passing lane then go. (On hiways anyways). Urban cities have multiple lanes for multiple kinds of traffic. Since the usual time people are driving in any given day are during the morning and evening rush hours. I look at the highway and it is gridlocked. Even the fast ass Porches I see every day. Driving habits, carpooling, taking the bus, road design are bigger factors than the slow car issue.

How many small cars can you make out of a freakin Hummer? Now you want a vehicle that blocks the road, you buy a damn Hummer.

These new small electric/hybrid cars are not suited for long hiway driving. Infrastructure to fule the cars is not in place. There are also saftey concerns with any small car on the road. Since we are all surrounded by an ever increasing number of SUVs and Crossover vehicles. Everything is getting bigger and costlier. Thinking small might just be what is in order.

Amazing Atheist · October 31, 2007

Slow?? Uh huh.
If people learned how to drive, gas or electric cars, the roads would flow as fast as they could. But the human factor plays more part in traffic than the vehicle itself.

Please a 100km/h is not that slow, the average highway speed limit is 100-110 km/h.

Fact is there are speed limits because once cars start going so fast they become uncontrollable. Even if cars were controlled by computer software that had near instantaneous reaction time going super fast would still be unsafe.

===

Anyway is provinces like Saskatchewan and I am sure others insurance companies have banned any type of car with an electric engine. So if I built a safe and speedy car powered by an electric motor I could not get plates for it.

Either which way I look at it hydrogen fuel cells and what have you are likely the future of personal transport due to it's price and abundance and let's not forget about how environmentally friendly it is at 0% emissions.

Wilber · October 31, 2007

Anyway is provinces like Saskatchewan and I am sure others insurance companies have banned any type of car with an electric engine. So if I built a safe and speedy car powered by an electric motor I could not get plates for it.

They have? Vehicles have to meet certain safety standards before they can be sold. They also have to meet the performance standards and represent good value to the people who are expected to buy them. Solve those problems and you will sell plenty.

GostHacked · October 31, 2007

Hydrogen produces a net loss in total energy output. OK fine, every kind of energy source we use, we end up with a net loss. However, Hydrogen fule cells use a higher rate of energy than what they actually output. Hydrogen is not the way to go.

Natural Gas cars are pretty good from what I understand. Buses, cabs, fleets use propane. Clean efficient, and produces ... water as a byproduct. Why are we not using propane instead?

Electric vehicles can be efficient and cost effective and fast and light.

At my warehouse we use electric pallet haulers and forklifts. Acceleration and torque is there is spades. The battery pack for the machines are quite large, but they go 8-10 hours on a charge. These are not even nicad or lithion or whathave you. Standard batteries. I think some things can be learned from these machines. I know technology is there to make us a complete working long driving electric vehicle.

Hmm since most families have 2 vehicles, one could be a slow electric vehicle for daily commutes, and a gas one for those long trips or drives. Hell, you could even rent a gas vehicle then for those purposes.

GMs EV1 was definately on the right track, and again, this was 10 years ago. Imagine what they could have made if they had kept production and improving the vehicle. Shortsightedness.

Wilber · October 31, 2007

Hydrogen produces a net loss in total energy output. OK fine, every kind of energy source we use, we end up with a net loss. However, Hydrogen fule cells use a higher rate of energy than what they actually output. Hydrogen is not the way to go.

I'm missing something here, a majority of the energy contained in gasoline is lost into the internal combustion engines cooling system or goes out the tailpipe in the form of heat. Are you refering to the amount of energy required to produce the hydrogen?

AngusThermopyle · October 31, 2007

heck, even if we don't go electric... i've really wanted one of the imported kei trucks from japan. 660 cc pick up trucks (http://www.allamericanminitrucks.com/gallery).

So what exactly would this underpowered piece of crap be usefull for? It's underpowered, low capacity, low total haulage weight, and probably a sh*t load more problems if you look into it. I just cant see myself trying to haul a Bobcat through the mountains into BC with this hunk of junk. You'd end up pulling the "truck" with the Bobcat.

Small novelty vehicles like this are fine for the city where not much heavy work is done but in the wider world they'd be nothing more than a pain in the ass toy for those who want to pretend they have a truck.

People seem to forget that theres a wide world of work out there. For this world of work no better alternative than gas and diesel currently exists.

Fortunata · November 5, 2007

Transport Canada approves 100% electric car
Transport Canada confirmed Friday it has authorized a Toronto-based electric carmaker to produce a vehicle for the Canadian market.

The ZENN (zero emissions, no noise) electric car has received the National Safety Mark, a legal label that indicates the vehicle meets Canada Motor Vehicle Safety Standards.

Toronto-based ZENN Motor Company makes the 100 per cent electric car, which is built in St. Jerome, Que. Roughly the same size as the Mini-Cooper, it would sell for approximately $14,000.

It's sold in most American states, Mexico and Europe.

Transport Canada says it will be up to the individual provinces and territories to legislate where the vehicle can be driven.

Currently, British Columbia is the only Canadian province to legislate this type of vehicle.

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/11/0...portcanada.html

Looks like Canon was wrong when he stood up in the HoC and said this little car didn't meet specs.