"christian scammers/scandals abound"

[jennie]

I am absolutley disgusted by how badly this thread was Jacked. THE SUBJECT IS THE SPENDING HABITS OF THE PRESIDENT OF ORAL ROBERTS UNIVERSITY! its not about Islam or christian belief, we have seperate thread all about that. Thanks to those of you who actually kept on topic. Personally I think its disgusting that the American people are funding this kind of debauchery. If I were on the Judical board who took this case I would vote to pull there funding. If my kid was going there, I would pull them out of that school in a New York minute. Its a shame that Old man Roberts son has absolutely squandered the family name.

I feel the same about all churches. They are all fighting over who 'owns' God and thus is 'superior'. Religion is a plot to dumb down the masses.

[jefferiah]

Yes there is. They think only THEY know god. That is ridiculous and they place themselves above others.

I have no patience for organized religion. It is used as a tool to silence the 'masses' and keep them fighting with each other....

This is where you and I differ. You see it as something to fight over, I don't. If I believe that Jesus is the Messiah then I am not a follower of Judaism, and I am not a Muslim. And there is no way to reconcile myself to those other religions. And the same goes for Judaism and Islam vs Christianity. So if you believe one of them is right, you believe that the others are wrong. Believing that something is wrong does not mean you believe you are a better person or that you must fight with others who do not believe as you do. People can agree to disagree. People do this all the time in everyday life. I am sure you have friends who do not vote the same way as you do. Perhaps you have relatives who are more right-winged than you are.

[jefferiah]

I feel the same about all churches. They are all fighting over who 'owns' God and thus is 'superior'.

If the teacher asks a math question to the class----

"What does _ +_ equal?"

Five students raise their hands. Each of them has a different answer. Let's say that one student is right. And he gives his answer because he thinks he has the right answer. Does this mean he thinks he is superior to the other students? Should the teacher say that they are all right answers?

No one owns God. The debate is not over ownership of God, but the truth about God. There are different positions on the matter which directly contradict each other. Only one of them, if any, can be true.

When you and others assert your positions on native issues there seem to be two different standpoints. And they do not gel. If you are right the other one is wrong, vice versa. And I assume that since you argue for your own position on the native issues, you must also think that your position is the right one. I am sure you are not here just to practice your debating skills and that you just pick a side for fun. No, you argue for your own position on the matter because you think it is the right one. Does this mean you think you are superior? Of course not!!

Edited October 15, 2007 by jefferiah

[ScottSA]

Yes there is. They think only THEY know god. That is ridiculous and they place themselves above others.

I have no patience for organized religion. It is used as a tool to silence the 'masses' and keep them fighting with each other so they don't notice their precious church has been co-opted and they are being scammed by the 'moneychangers' whom we now call the 'multinationals'.

I don't suppose you see the irony of this post.

[betsy]

Well, if you are slinging insults, then you must believe you are qualified to do so:

Now, I don't know much about Mohammad....but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things.

If you don't understand how that is an insult, just change Mohammed to Christ and see how it reads to you.

Pssshh. But changing Mohammad to Christ wouldn't be factual now, would it?

History books had mentioned Mohammad involved in violence, that's just it!

Like as if I made it up!

Anyway is it an insult now to repeat what is documented????

And read again how I worded my statement! That was pretty tame actually. This statement, "but from the few articles I've read, his background was actually not impressive. They're talking mass murders and massacres, among other things," could've easily been worded into something really nasty.

Now you're not one of these present-day scammers who'd think nothing of twisting historical documents just to suit their arguments, are you?

Edited October 16, 2007 by betsy

[betsy]

Gee...before you know it you'd also be insisting Bin Laden is not religious at all.

[Guest coot]

Pssshh. But changing Mohammad to Christ wouldn't be factual now, would it?

I agree that Christ is largely a work of fiction.

[margrace]

On Channel "ONE" tonight there was a program called the Myths of Mankind, The Jesus Stories Part 1. A professor commented that Jesus was born a Jew and he died a Jew and he would have been mortified if he could see what the Chrisitian Church had done to his story.

[jefferiah]

A professor commented that Jesus was born a Jew and he died a Jew and he would have been mortified if he could see what the Chrisitian Church had done to his story.

And your professor knows this based on......? If he had perhaps used the line from The Catcher in The Rye about coming and seeing some of the things that are done in his name, I might have agreed.

He was definitely a Jew. In Judaism there is the promise of a coming Messiah. So in a sense Christianity is a form of Judaism which believes the Messiah has already come.

Edited October 16, 2007 by jefferiah

[jennie]

I agree that Christ is largely a work of fiction.

I agree with coot.

[jefferiah]

I agree with coot.

Ah, so since you agree with him, you must believe that the point upon which you both agree is "right" or "the truth". Now, does this mean you think you are superior to others?

[jefferiah]

I am absolutley disgusted by how badly this thread was Jacked. THE SUBJECT IS THE SPENDING HABITS OF THE PRESIDENT OF ORAL ROBERTS UNIVERSITY! its not about Islam or christian belief, we have seperate thread all about that. .

I find it hard to believe that you are really all that disgusted. The iniator of the thread was quite willing to indulge in the new direction the thread was taking and was probably partly responsible for that direction.

If this disgusts you I wonder how you are able to function in normal life, where everyday conversations in real time begin with one topic and follow through with a succession of others.

[jennie]

Ah, so since you agree with him, you must believe that the point upon which you both agree is "right" or "the truth". Now, does this mean you think you are superior to others?

No, it means it is the truth for me.

That is what I would like to see ... more recognition that something ... a religion ... can be right for one person and not for others. I would like to see that respected. I would like to see religious views NOT pushed on other people who already have their own views.

And I would like to see the religious "scammers" in jail.

[jefferiah]

No, it means it is the truth for me.

That is what I would like to see ... more recognition that something ... a religion ... can be right for one person and not for others. I would like to see that respected. I would like to see religious views NOT pushed on other people who already have their own views.

2 plus 2 cannot be 4 and also 5. It is one or the other. So for instance, Islam says that Jesus is only a prophet, and a lesser one in comparison to Mohammed. While Christianity says that Jesus is divine, the Son of God. If one is true the other is not. If a truth is true for one and not for another, then it is not really a truth.

You keep saying views are pushed on another. Earlier today I went on some Islamic sites and I saw that in various ones it was said that Islam is the true religion. I also went on an Islamic irc chat and asked what is the true religion? This was after I read Kuzadd's most recent post. The reply that was given at first was "This is" So I said "What is this? What religion?" And the people there told me "Islam." So I said "Does this mean Judaism and Christianity are false religions." And the reply I received was, "Yes, they are false." When someone says something like this it does not feel like anyone is forcing it on me. By simply proselytizing and promoting your belief above another, you are not forcing anyone to believe it. People have a right to do so. In fact, had they never had this right, then there would be no Christianity, Islam or Judaism today. In fact there would be very little communication at all. And people who think that any or all of these respective religions are hokum have a right to disregard those who have a right to proselytize if they do not believe them.

When a Jehovah's Witness comes to my door and hands out literature, they are not forcing me to convert. They are giving me literature which explains their position, and why it is the right one. They have a right to do so, and I have the right to either agree or disregard what they say. Very simple. While you may think proselytizing is a small annoyance it is hardly a crime, and a fairly reasonable part of everyday life.

Religion aside, let's look at any non-religious viewpoints or idealogies. It is well accepted that what people regard as truth is something that they try to make others see. In fact, this is basically what we all do on Mapleleafweb day in and day out. Political parties promote themselves above other political parties. You proselytize your own views on here, Jennie. We all do. That is not pushing it on somebody. People have a right to agree or disagree with what you say. It's very simple. If your views are only truths for you then that means that there is no substantial value or truth to what you are saying about native issues, except for within your own mind. That means that there is no reason for anyone to come around to your side. And I don't think you argue these points just so that you can hear yourself think. You believe you are objectively right. If not, you would have no reason to post your thoughts here. You wouldn't force your own truths on others, right.

Edited October 16, 2007 by jefferiah

[betsy]

I agree that Christ is largely a work of fiction.

<yawn>

For a non-believer, that is.

But not for me.

Edited October 16, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

No, if any of them are right, it can only be one of them since they all pretty much have contradictory points, so to believe in one of them is to believe the others are wrong. Those who believe they have a right answer usually do not keep their mouths shut. There is nothing supremacist about that.

I find all the religions have mainly the same views.

Religion is also a personal BELIEF, that means, "keep it to yourself"

No, if any of them are right, it can only be one of them

Actually, they can also all be wrong.

Edited October 16, 2007 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Of course, and I can also accept the right of someone of any faith to say that his/her faith is better and the true way to people who are not of his/her faith.

I find that a little hard to believe.

I mean that you can accept it.

(that people can espouse the superiority of their faith and you can accept that)

That is not a view that has ever been espoused on this forum. One of tolerance.

In fact what has been amply displayed is intolerance, of Islam as a faith.

I will also note,still, the dismissal/downplay of what Anne Coulter really did say.

Edited October 16, 2007 by kuzadd

[margrace]

And your professor knows this based on......? If he had perhaps used the line from The Catcher in The Rye about coming and seeing some of the things that are done in his name, I might have agreed.

He was definitely a Jew. In Judaism there is the promise of a coming Messiah. So in a sense Christianity is a form of Judaism which believes the Messiah has already come.

THis man, among others, was using ancient texts found in this century as his basis for the fact of how Christianity was developed. Most of what we are taught today came out of texts written hundreds of years after these texts.

Mainly what was being shown on this program was how Christianity and the Deification of Jesus was set up to give the church leaders control of the common man.

[DogOnPorch]

I will also note,still, the dismissal/downplay of what Anne Coulter really did say.

Kind of like how you dismiss/downplay the Palestinian Arab's bad points?

Imagine that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man on street: Rabbi, should I buy a Chrysler?

Rabbi Hyman Krustofsky: Eh, couldn't you rephrase that as an ethical question?

Man on street: Um...Is it right to buy a Chrysler?

Rabbi Hyman Krustofsky: Oh, yes! [chuckles] For great is the car with power steering

and dynaflow suspension! It is written...

---Simpsons: Like Father, Like Clown

Edited October 16, 2007 by DogOnPorch

[Argus]

That is not a view that has ever been espoused on this forum. One of tolerance.

In fact what has been amply displayed is intolerance, of Islam as a faith.

I will also note,still, the dismissal/downplay of what Anne Coulter really did say.

Can you tell me the last time anyone was executed for adultery in the Christian world? Or for committing a homosexual act?

Are you saying I'm wrong to be intolerant of such things, that I should accept the execution of women for adultery and of homosexuals as simply the free expression of their religion?

[ScottSA]

No, it means it is the truth for me.

That is what I would like to see ... more recognition that something ... a religion ... can be right for one person and not for others. I would like to see that respected. I would like to see religious views NOT pushed on other people who already have their own views.

You should read Theodore Dalrymple's "In Praise of Prejudice," and you'll see why that kind of radical atomization is not only impossible but undesireable.

[Drea]

Why is it with any topic on religion -- people pit Islam against Chritianity.

This thread is about people who take other people's money (money meant to go to god -- he does NEED it afterall ) and use it to buy luxury items for themselves.

I feel sorry for all the people that are decieved into giving over their life savings. The perps (evangelists) should be put in jail for fraud.

And another thing.... how can they sleep at night? I would not be able to rip off little old ladies and then peacefully place my head on my pillow... geez these people are friggin evil if ever there was an "evil".

[M.Dancer]

Televangilists are nothing more than modern carnies.....they provide a service (entertainment/misguided hope) in exchange for cash. No one should be surprised or mortified that they are con artists.....just like you shouldn't be surprised that the midway games are almost impossible to beat.

[jazzer]

Can you tell me the last time anyone was executed for adultery in the Christian world? Or for committing a homosexual act?

Are you saying I'm wrong to be intolerant of such things, that I should accept the execution of women for adultery and of homosexuals as simply the free expression of their religion?

That happens to be what the Old Testament expoused at one time. Islam is obvioulsy slow to catch up to the modern world. They have harsh rules and are we to judge their moral code? I'm more concerned about the millions starving to death in Africa than I am over someone violating an established Islamic code of conduct.

[guyser]

.....just like you shouldn't be surprised that the midway games are almost impossible to beat.

They are fixed?

I practice throwing coins on a plate for an hour a night.