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kuzadd

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You completely misunderstood what I said. I never said that no one believed in the rapture. I said that just because they believe in it, does not mean they believe that Left Behind is an accurate example of what will happen. It is a work of fiction, and everyone knows that. Personally as far as heresy is concerned, the books themselves may actually qualify, because the book of Revelations ends with a warning about adding to these words of prophecy.

The idea of the rapture comes from interpretations of a certain part of revelations. Within the belief in the rapture itself, there are several schools of thought, some of them mainstream and some of them fringe.

The statement you have quoted from "truthroom" is obviously from a fringe group.

I know plenty of people who read about prophecy and the rapture but not one of them has ever echoed a statement like this. And as for the charge that people are trying to manipulate world events in order to make this rapture happen-----it mainly comes from people who do not like Christianity saying so, not from any actual truth. Part of the backbone of this belief in the rapture is that no one knows the day or the hour in which it will take place, and that it is not up to men but God to decide when such a thing would happen.

So I took a look at your Truthroom site and here is another quote for you:

"Note: this website is not affiliated with any organized religion or religious organization."

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http://umnexus.org/context.php?Article=28

This is from the Methodist's, now read the entire article, cause it is big,

Apparently the Methodist's are concerned with the "rapture culture" because it crosses borders over numerous christian faiths and is associated with more then one anyway, so your statement is actually irrelevant. That is why "Note: this website is not affiliated with any organized religion or religious organization." Is NOT relevant.

now to the article:

United Methodists Face Dangers of the Rapture Culture

The Rev. Dr. Donald W. Hayne

Many United Methodists have become part of what we might call the “Rapture culture,” a false theology that began about 175 years ago and poses frighteningly real implications for today’s world.

We might call it the “Left Behind” syndrome – the misconception that the fictional series, which has made millions for authors Timothy LaHaye and Jerry Junkins, accurately reflects God’s plan for the world.

In reality, “Rapture culture” is based on falsehoods that distort the Holy Bible, which John Wesley taught us to interpret using church tradition, our life experience and most importantly, our powers of reasoning.

I see at least four dangers inherent to the “Rapture culture” for United Methodists.

First, “Rapture culture” contradicts our concept of God. Most of us long ago learned that John 3:16 is a cornerstone belief of all Christians (“God so loved the world that God gave His Son…”). Belief in the Rapture does not present God as loving the world. No, the Rapture god takes gleeful delight in destroying all those whom God has created except the few righteous who are “raptured” (mysteriously removed from earth) before the troubles start.

“Rapture theology invites a selfish non-concern for the world,” according to Barbara Rossing, a Lutheran seminary professor and author of “The Rapture Exposed.”

Second, the word “Rapture” is not in the Bible. It comes from James Darby, a Scotsman, who created an end-times theory in the 1830s.

In Darby’s theory, human history is divided into seven “dispensations,” or time periods. These culminate in a two-stage physical return of Jesus. The first stage “raptures” the faithful and “leaves behind” those who knew about the Gospel but rejected it. The second stage establishes a Jerusalem-based 1,000 years of peace after a seven-year tribulation following the Battle of Armageddon.

The first contemporary book to popularize Darby’s theory came in the 1970s — “The Late Great Planet Earth,” by Hal Lindsey, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, founded in 1924 by Presbyterian Lewis Chafer as a dispensationalists’ training center. Of course, the latest popularization is Timothy LaHaye’s and Jerry Junkins’ “Left Behind” series, with more than 50 million copies sold and each copy passed, on average, to three other people.

Third, Rapture theology can cause an irresponsible disregard for working at the issues and problems of our own time. Rather than loving our neighbors, “Rapture culture” encourages people simply to give up on the world, leaving it up to God to step onto the stage of human history and remove the righteous, leaving the others behind to endure the seven-year dispensation of the Antichrist. (This is another oft-abused word! The word “antichrist” occurs only once in the Bible—and not in Revelation! It occurs in II John, verse 7: “Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.”)
Fourth, and most perniciously, “Rapture culture” involves itself with world politics. The “Left Behind” web site says, “The veil between the fiction of Left Behind and the reality of life in the Middle East is a thin one.” That assertion is frightening!

Furthermore, the “Rapture culture” is convinced that before Jesus returns his second time, the Dome of the Rock, built by Islam in 691 A.D. on a plateau in Jerusalem, must be torn down (imagine the havoc that would create and the miscarriage of justice it would entail). Then a new Jewish Temple must be built on that site, apparently solely for the purpose of being desecrated by the antichrist so it can become the site of the returning Messiah seven years later to fight the battle of Armageddon.

At that time, the Jews would lose. In “rapture culture,” the Last Judgment would reject to eternal damnation all Jews who did not receive Jesus as the Messiah. The theory conveniently ignores John 2:20-21, which says that Jesus “was speaking of the resurrection of his body,” not referring to the Herod’s Temple.

Two books are most helpful if you are a member of the “Rapture culture” or if you are concerned/interested in its rapid spread among all American religious groups — mainline as well as fundamentalists.

One is Amy Johnson Frykholm’s “Rapture Culture.” Frykholm is a South Dakotan with southern roots who became aware of how much the “Rapture culture” eschatology had permeated her own family network. Her book follows more than 70 people -- Catholics, Presbyterians, agnostics, Baptists and others – in their use of and response to apocalyptic language over three years.

The other book is Barbara Rossing’s “The Rapture Exposed,” recently reprinted with a new study guide edited by Lutheran journalist Ann Hafften. I found her book is confrontational and almost as politically biased as those whom she opposes. However, Rossing offers great value in her short but excellent history of Dispensationalism, an important chapter titled “The Rapture Script for the Middle East,” and her superb biblical exegesis of key passages used by the “rapture culture.” These passages include the four texts most misinterpreted by Dispensationalists: Daniel 9:25-27, I Thessalonians 4, I Corinthians 15 and Revelation 11.

This is a really big article, and I have reduced it greatly to relevant points.

Now this Reverend, points out the same problems with the 'rapture culture' as out mentioned on that website and on the ones I posted yesterday.

There are multi-millions of these 'believers' out there.

Edited by kuzadd
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This is from the Methodist's, now read the entire article, cause it is big,

Apparently the Methodist's are concerned with the "rapture culture" because it crosses borders over numerous christian faiths and is associated with more then one anyway, so your statement is actually irrelevant.

Psssst: Just a hint to help you avoid embarrassment in the future: digging up an article in support of your position hardly constitutes "proof" of something. In fact, it often actually hurts your position. Like this one, which sets "Rapture Culture" apart from Christianity, in the very words you quoted. Now I won't play the game of the Islamic apologists and try to say that rapture has nothing to do with Christianity a la "Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam," but I will point out that this "rapture culture" is certainly not representative of mainstream Christianity, as also evidenced by your own article, nor does it advocate the proactive killing of unbelievers.

In fact, your asides are full of completely unsubstantiated assertions, like the book is passed, "on average" to three other people. What nonsense. How could anyone credibly claim to be able to track enough of these books through a reading cycle to know what the "average" is? That's the basis, I assume, for your claim that "multi-millions" belong to this sect. Let me suggest to you that whatever the numbers of believers in this nonsense are, they pale in comparison to the mainstream Islamic mullahs thundering invective down on Jews and infidels, and howling for their heads. And I daresay if you compiled a list of murders by Rapture cultists in the name of God, it wouldn't come very close to the hundreds of weekly murders by Islam.

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Yeah, I was surprised to see so many people getting killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. It might have something to do with the conflicts going on there today, but I'll simply assume that it's all because of Islam because thats the most simplistic answer out there.

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Like this one, which sets "Rapture Culture" apart from Christianity, in the very words you quoted. Now I won't play the game of the Islamic apologists and try to say that rapture has nothing to do with Christianity a la "Islamic terrorism has nothing to do with Islam," but I will point out that this "rapture culture" is certainly not representative of mainstream Christianity, as also evidenced by your own article, nor does it advocate the proactive killing of unbelievers.

In fact, your asides are full of completely unsubstantiated assertions, like the book is passed, "on average" to three other people. What nonsense. How could anyone credibly claim to be able to track enough of these books through a reading cycle to know what the "average" is? That's the basis, I assume, for your claim that "multi-millions" belong to this sect. Let me suggest to you that whatever the numbers of believers in this nonsense are, they pale in comparison to the mainstream Islamic mullahs thundering invective down on Jews and infidels, and howling for their heads. And I daresay if you compiled a list of murders by Rapture cultists in the name of God, it wouldn't come very close to the hundreds of weekly murders by Islam.

"but I will point out that this "rapture culture" is certainly not representative of mainstream Christianity"

but of course, in your double standard, Islamic terrorism is representative of mainstream Islam :rolleyes:

but millions of rapture believers inc, but not limited to quite alot of the Bush administration, doesn't constitute a problematic situation?

Edited by kuzadd
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Yeah, I was surprised to see so many people getting killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. It might have something to do with the conflicts going on there today, but I'll simply assume that it's all because of Islam because thats the most simplistic answer out there.

Canadian Blue, of course it is!

just ask scottsa.

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http://umnexus.org/context.php?Article=28

There are multi-millions of these 'believers' out there.

You seem to keep misunderstanding. There are millions of believers within the rapture school, I am sure. I am not disputing that fact. What I am arguing is the idea that millions of them are trying to make the rapture happen. Within this group of people who believe in the rapture there are varying schools of thought. So there is no one rapture culture.

The rapture itself refers to the belief that believers will be taken away from the world before the 7 year period of tribulation. I have some very religious people on one side of my family who are into this sort of thing, and so I have been exposed to it and seen their beliefs since I was small. I have seen a wealth of literature on the subject. And when I hear things such as Christians are trying to make Armageddon happen, it is not based on anything I have read in this literature, but rather in the minds of those who are saying it.

As for myself, I do not even see the word Rapture once in the Bible. Yet the term itself was coined based on a certain small section of the book of Revelation, and it refers to the belief that at the time of the end somehow the believers will be seperated from the troubles of the rest of the world. I have yet to read a quote by a mainstream Bible prophecy writer wherein he states the things which you have said. Like the quote you cited from Truthroom.

There is a general belief that it will not happen until the Temple is rebuilt. But this does not mean that people are going to try to rebuild the Temple in order for the rapture to happen. And this is not why a great many of us support Israel. This is a twist which is emphasized more by those who just plain dislike Christianity.

So while Scott points out that this rapture culture is not the mainstream of Christianity, I will point also point out that what you think of as a radical rapture culture is not even the mainstream of believers in the rapture.

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"but I will point out that this "rapture culture" is certainly not representative of mainstream Christianity"

but of course, in your double standard, Islamic terrorism is representative of mainstream Islam :rolleyes:

That's a false dichotomy, actually. If you want to compare Islamic terrorism to Rapture terrorism, go for it and see how the numbers stack up. Because that's an appropriate comparison. However, you'll also note, in the first half of that very sentence that I specifically rejected that appeal, because it's so nonsensical when used by Muslims that it can't be used here either as a defence.

All I need do is that Rapture cultists do not hold any position of strength even in Christendom, never mind across the globe, nor do they call for their adherents to kill people in the name of God. Mainstream Islam does, all the time, from positions of power, sometimes from the very top.

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Yeah, I was surprised to see so many people getting killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. It might have something to do with the conflicts going on there today, but I'll simply assume that it's all because of Islam because thats the most simplistic answer out there.

Tell you what: you take all the Iraqi murders out of that 2 month list of Islamic murders in the name of Islam, and then, just to make sure, take another couple hundred out of that 2 month list, and then use the remaining ones on that 2 month list to stack up against all the murders committed by Rapture cultists in the name of God, since the movement began. Let's see how those numbers stack up.

I'm almost embarrassed for the people trying to make moral equivalencies here.

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Also you seem to have misunderstood the general idea of Armageddon as well, or quoted people who do not have a good understanding of the mainstream idea among those who believe in the rapture.

You quoted this:

"Then a new Jewish Temple must be built on that site, apparently solely for the purpose of being desecrated by the antichrist so it can become the site of the returning Messiah seven years later to fight the battle of Armageddon. At that time, the Jews would lose."

This is completely wrong. Actually this has nothing to do with the rapture either, but with prophecy in general. The rapture is simply the belief that people will be seperated before the 7 years of tribulation. This refers to the prophecies of the tribulation itself, not the rapture. And it is completely false. At Armageddon according to the prophecy crowd, the antichrist loses. Though some people do think that before all of this final battle takes place he will gain military control over Israel.

Edited by jefferiah
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I'm almost embarrassed for the people trying to make moral equivalencies here.

I feel embarrased for the people who can't figure out why their are so many deaths in the conflicts in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.

Tell you what: you take all the Iraqi murders out of that 2 month list of Islamic murders in the name of Islam, and then, just to make sure, take another couple hundred out of that 2 month list, and then use the remaining ones on that 2 month list to stack up against all the murders committed by Rapture cultists in the name of God, since the movement began. Let's see how those numbers stack up.

Well we're very lucky that the United States caught the mastermind behind 9/11, now without Saddam Hussein there will be no more terrorist attacks ever again. But I can't help but wonder what ever happened to that Osama guy.

Tell you what: you take all the Iraqi murders out of that 2 month list of Islamic murders in the name of Islam, and then, just to make sure, take another couple hundred out of that 2 month list, and then use the remaining ones on that 2 month list to stack up against all the murders committed by Rapture cultists in the name of God, since the movement began. Let's see how those numbers stack up.

Well whose brilliant idea was it to get into Iraq in the first place if the result would be so many more Islamic terrorist attacks?

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At Armageddon according to the prophecy crowd, the antichrist loses. Though some people do think that before all of this final battle takes place he will gain military control over Israel.

The "anti-Christ" had better invest in some proper military leaders if he/it hopes to have the Arabs overrun Israel...lol. Most of them have only one command down pat...RETREAT!!!

:lol::lol::lol:

Silly, silly religions...

------------------------------------------------------------------

If you treat people right they will treat you right - ninety percent of the time.

---FDR

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Tell you what: you take all the Iraqi murders out of that 2 month list of Islamic murders in the name of Islam, and then, just to make sure, take another couple hundred out of that 2 month list, and then use the remaining ones on that 2 month list to stack up against all the murders committed by Rapture cultists in the name of God, since the movement began. Let's see how those numbers stack up.

How about this, in May of 2006 how many Islamic extremists killed people in Belguim as compared to right wing extremists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040201.stm

A Belgian teenager has been sentenced to life imprisonment for killing a Malian nanny and her two-year-old charge in a racist shooting spree.

An Antwerp court found Hans van Themsche guilty of killing Oulematou Niangadou and then shooting toddler Luna Drowart when she started crying.

Van Themsche, 19, also shot and wounded a woman of Turkish descent during his rampage in central Antwerp in May 2006.

He was stopped when a policeman shot him in the stomach.

He later told police he had hoped to kill at least five foreigners before dying in a hail of police bullets.

The jury rejected a defence argument that Van Themsche was mentally ill.

Right-wing links

"You acted with blind violence, without any respect for the lives and integrity of others," judge Michel Jordens said.

"You reduced the value of life to nothing in order to affirm yourself," he said.

Police say Van Themsche's father helped found the now defunct anti-immigration party Vlaams Blok, and his aunt is an MP for its successor, Vlaams Belang.

The 19-year-old showed no reaction as his sentence was read out.

The time he serves could be extended by two years, as he was the first person convicted under a law introduced in 2003 to punish racist crimes.

After the shooting last year, lawmakers tightened rules against selling arms, and some 20,000 people participated in a march in Antwerp against racism.

The lawyer for the toddler's parents, Jef Vermassen, said there were jubilant scenes after the verdict.

"I have never seen more beautiful scenes than inside this courtroom," he said.

"I saw Luna's parents hug a black man from the family of the babysitter. I watched and saw Luna's mother shut her eyes. And when it was over and she came to kiss me... she said it's a small victory. Luna won't come back, but this is justice."

Edited by Canadian Blue
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http://www.crossleft.org/?q=node/2416

How Religious Movements Prolong the Arab-Israeli Conflict

The Christian Right, which Armstrong described as "the first fundamentalist reform movement of the 20th century," has sought to "drag religion back to center stage" in American life. She traced the origins of "rapture ideology" to an imaginative and selective reading by John Nelson Darby of the Bible's Book of Revelation, "the most unfortunate book of the Bible," in her words. Darby, a 19th century British evangelist, found "no takers" for his ideas in Britain, but set off a Christian Zionist movement in the United States. Hence, the 1948 creation of Israel and events since have been seen by the Christian right as "fulfilling the story of the end of days" and support for Israel's right wing has naturally followed.

Armstrong used the Christian Right as an example to support her thesis that fundamentalist movements are rooted in fear and humiliation. Fundamentalists share the belief that "secularism and liberalism are attacking them," that the "modern world wants to wipe them out." So, for example, she said that "small-town America" feels threatened by the culture of "Harvard, Yale, and Washington, DC."

Fundamentalist movements, Armstrong said, are an "expression of a great sickness of soul," a sign that "something is rotten" in the society that produces them. In making her case, she discussed Jewish fundamentalist leaders such as Rabbi Abraham Kook and Rabbi Meir Kahane, whose Kahane Chai movement recently had an appeal to remove its name from the U.S. State Department list of terrorist groups rejected, as well as Muslim fundamentalists such as Osama bin Laden and Sayyid Qutb.

who is Karen Armstrong?

Armstrong has authored thirteen books, including the best seller A History of God. At age seventeen she took vows of chastity and poverty, and entered the Roman Catholic order of the Society of the Holy Child Jesus. Seven years later she left the convent and in 1982 published her first book, Through the Narrow Gate, which chronicles her life as a nun. Shortly thereafter she published a second autobiographical book about the religious life, Beginning the World.

Armstrong's achievements as an independent scholar focusing on the three great monotheistic religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, have earned her a reputation as a major contributor to interfaith understanding and respect. Her books on Islam and Muhammad have given many Westerners their first clear and unbiased insight into the history and teachings of this great tradition and its prophet. Her latest book, The Great Transformation: The Beginning of Our Religious Traditions, was published in March 2006;

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T

he rapture itself refers to the belief that believers will be taken away from the world before the 7 year period of tribulation. I have some very religious people on one side of my family who are into this sort of thing, and so I have been exposed to it and seen their beliefs since I was small. I have seen a wealth of literature on the subject. And when I hear things such as Christians are trying to make Armageddon happen, it is not based on anything I have read in this literature, but rather in the minds of those who are saying it.

Unfortunately for you, no matter the downplay you are attempting, bringing on Armageddon, for the rapture to come on, is based exactly on how this rapture cult talks.

So while Scott points out that this rapture culture is not the mainstream of Christianity, I will point also point out that what you think of as a radical rapture culture is not even the mainstream of believers in the rapture
.

Again it is quite mainstream with multi -millions of followers, estimated at 20 MILLION in the US alone.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0420,perlstein,53582,1.html

The Jesus Landing Pad

Bush White House checked with rapture Christians before latest Israel move

It was an e-mail we weren't meant to see. Not for our eyes were the notes that showed White House staffers taking two-hour meetings with Christian fundamentalists, where they passed off bogus social science on gay marriage as if it were holy writ and issued fiery warnings that "the Presidents [sic] Administration and current Government is engaged in cultural, economical, and social struggle on every level"—this to a group whose representative in Israel believed herself to have been attacked by witchcraft unleashed by proximity to a volume of Harry Potter. Most of all, apparently, we're not supposed to know the National Security Council's top Middle East aide consults with apocalyptic Christians eager to ensure American policy on Israel conforms with their sectarian doomsday scenarios.

But now we know.

"Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.

The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth.

Abrams attempted to assuage their concerns by stating that "the Gaza Strip had no significant Biblical influence such as Joseph's tomb or Rachel's tomb and therefore is a piece of land that can be sacrificed for the cause of peace."

Not mainstream and no influence,(as scott and Jefferiah CLAIM) but somehow these rapture cultist's have the President of the USA's ear.

Now how did such a uninfluential group of people do that???

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Village Voice?

Great source there. I suppose now that Weekly World News is no longer with us, we can still get the facts somewhere.

M. Dancer just got a bit richer, me thinks.

how about the christian resource? (crossleft)

written by karen Armstrong?

or the other article written by the Methodist Reverend?

please address those articles then if the one you mentioned does not "suit" your purposes.

Edited by kuzadd
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perhaps the NY times is more to your liking?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washingt...amp;oref=slogin

For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is ‘God’s Foreign Policy’

At a dinner addressed by the Israeli ambassador, a handful of Republican senators and the chairman of the Republican Party, Mr. Hagee read greetings from President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel and dispatched the crowd with a message for their representatives in Congress. Tell them “to let Israel do their job” of destroying the Lebanese militia, Hezbollah, Mr. Hagee said.

He called the conflict “a battle between good and evil” and said support for Israel was “God’s foreign policy.”

The next day he took the same message to the White House.

Many conservative Christians say they believe that the president’s support for Israel fulfills a biblical injunction to protect the Jewish state, which some of them think will play a pivotal role in the second coming.

Mr Hagee, just one of numerous, rapture cultist, goes to Washington, to the White House, BUT, they have no influence.???

people with no influence , don't get the attention these people get.

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How about this, in May of 2006 how many Islamic extremists killed people in Belguim as compared to right wing extremists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040201.stm

I don't think this helps your case at all. First, was he from the Rapture cult, since that's what we're talking about? No? Oh well then, was he a Christian killing for his God? No again? So after all that furious googling looking for "Christian killings" all over the globe, you found nothing, and so had to turn to "racist" killings to actually find something? And then you dug up some teenager in Belgium who went on a shooting spree? And this helps your attempt to equate Rapture Cultists to Muslim terrorists how?

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I don't think this helps your case at all. First, was he from the Rapture cult, since that's what we're talking about? No? Oh well then, was he a Christian killing for his God? No again? So after all that furious googling looking for "Christian killings" all over the globe, you found nothing, and so had to turn to "racist" killings to actually find something? And then you dug up some teenager in Belgium who went on a shooting spree? And this helps your attempt to equate Rapture Cultists to Muslim terrorists how?

Actually the resemblence between a racist and an Islamic extremist is far closer than an islamic extremist and an evengelical christian.

Most Born Again hold views I don't care for and they certainly feel my soul is damned.....but they are more inclined to save my soul than to damn it, while both the racist and the islamic extremist have no real passion for saving anything....

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Most Born Again hold views I don't care for and they certainly feel my soul is damned.....but they are more inclined to save my soul than to damn it, while both the racist and the islamic extremist have no real passion for saving anything....

most 'born agains' ,'rapture cultists' have no inclination to save your soul or anyone elses' who does not believe as they believe.

Sadly they have no real passion for saving anyone who does not follow as they do. They have no passion for peace, nor the planet, nor much of anything that works for human survival. But then they have the rapture.

Making them as equally self-serving as any racist or any other extremist.

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Jesus is comin' for a whole planet make-over dontcha know!

:rolleyes:

Our family were JW's when I was a kid and I remember thinking "What will those lions eat? If the lion is going to "lie down with the lamb" what will he eat? Will his teeth change from canines to teeth like horses so he can chew grass?"

....this is the kind of thing that goes through a seven year old's head when discussing "God's Kingdom on Earth".

LOL

Edited by Drea
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Interestingly I see Anne Coulter put her 'christian' foot, in her 'christian' mouth.

Demonstrating the usual right wing 'christian' rhetoric.

I see an uproar is on the go.

Aaah, but the woman has always been venemous, this is nothing new, or surprising.

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/ne...t_id=1003657196

transcript:

DEUTSCH: Christian -- so we should be Christian? It would be better if we were all Christian?

COULTER: Yes.

DEUTSCH: We should all be Christian?

COULTER: Yes. Would you like to come to church with me, Donny?

DEUTSCH: So I should not be a Jew, I should be a Christian, and this would be a better place?

COULTER: Well, you could be a practicing Jew, but you're not.

DEUTSCH: I actually am. That's not true. I really am. But -- so we would be better if we were - if people -- if there were no Jews, no Buddhists --

COULTER: Whenever I'm harangued by --

DEUTSCH: -- in this country? You can't believe that.

COULTER: -- you know, liberals on diversity --

DEUTSCH: Here you go again.

COULTER: No, it's true. I give all of these speeches at megachurches across America, and the one thing that's really striking about it is how utterly, completely diverse they are, and completely unself-consciously. You walk past a mixed-race couple in New York, and it's like they have a chip on their shoulder. They're just waiting for somebody to say something, as if anybody would. And --

DEUTSCH: I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that at all. Maybe you have the chip looking at them. I see a lot of interracial couples, and I don't see any more or less chips there either way. That's erroneous.

COULTER: No. In fact, there was an entire Seinfeld episode about Elaine and her boyfriend dating because they wanted to be a mixed-race couple, so you're lying.

DEUTSCH: Oh, because of some Seinfeld episode? OK.

COULTER: But yeah, I think that's reflective of what's going on in the culture, but it is completely striking that at these huge megachurches -- the idea that, you know, the more Christian you are, the less tolerant you would be is preposterous.

DEUTSCH: That isn't what I said, but you said I should not -- we should just throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians, then, or --

COULTER: Yeah.

DEUTSCH: Really?

COULTER: Well, it's a lot easier. It's kind of a fast track.

DEUTSCH: Really?

COULTER: Yeah. You have to obey.

DEUTSCH: You can't possibly believe that.

COULTER: Yes.

DEUTSCH: You can't possibly -- you're too educated, you can't -- you're like my friend in --

COULTER: Do you know what Christianity is? We believe your religion, but you have to obey.

DEUTSCH: No, no, no, but I mean --

COULTER: We have the fast-track program.

DEUTSCH: Why don't I put you with the head of Iran? I mean, come on. You can't believe that.

COULTER: The head of Iran is not a Christian.

DEUTSCH: No, but in fact, "Let's wipe Israel" --

COULTER: I don't know if you've been paying attention.

DEUTSCH: "Let's wipe Israel off the earth." I mean, what, no Jews?

COULTER: No, we think -- we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.

DEUTSCH: Wow, you didn't really say that, did you?

COULTER: Yes. That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws. We know we're all sinners --

DEUTSCH: In my old days, I would have argued -- when you say something absurd like that, there's no --

COULTER: What's absurd?

DEUTSCH: Jews are going to be perfected. I'm going to go off and try to perfect myself --

COULTER: Well, that's what the New Testament says.

DEUTSCH: Ann Coulter, author of If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans, and if Ann Coulter had any brains, she would not say Jews need to be perfected. I'm offended by that personally. And we'll have more Big Idea when we come back.

I liked the guys response, but then, what else would anyone expect from her?

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