Army Guy

BD: Why should'nt they get it all, perhaps the below link will help to explain some of Israel postion. And the more reseach i do on the topic the more i agree with. My Webpage My Webpage Not only have they not built any infra structure, or improved living conditions within the territories for themselfs, but they have failed in controling thier own people, According to you and your polls those people responsable for all these security violations"bombings etc " are a small portion of the population...They have failed to police themselfs, And as you said repeatily it's because of corruption of past leadership. OK i'll buy that, but is that the whole problem, the fact that the PLO was a terrorist organization lead by terrorist which was really not thier to govern but to fight.... What do you think is going to change with the Hamas do you think they are there to govern, or do you think they are thier to fight....after remarks coming from Hamas government officals it looks like they are there to fight...What is going to change. Yes it has occured to me Are you saying that the Hamas is the answer, When are you guys going to wake up they are thier to destroy the state of Israel, not to govern the people of palestine. You can see the piont clearly in thier ways they educate thier children, in thier litature, in thier media, I'm talking about both sides not just the palestinians. I've been there as a peace keeper in the sinai desert, patroled the streets on the Egyptian side of the border, talked to the people. spent some time in Israel None of the people i talked to had kind words about each other. Granted they were not in the Gaza strip, but i can't see them being any more friendily towards each other, especially in todays enviroment. If what you say is true that the majority want peace with israel then perhaps you can find a palestinian web site or an Israelis web site that is not critical of each other, that represents the majority of the people. If the majority wants peace it should be easy to find something that voices thier opinions, other than polls. I've tried and have found one or two but nothing that suggests a majority opinion. They had a chioce when they voted,"unless you are saying that the Hamas rigged the election" They have the power of numbers, unless it is agains't Hamas policy to speak out again'st thier rule...If they truely wanted peace as thier number one concern then they should demonstrate that to thier government. It has worked in other countries. They have not done that. I'm sure had they, world opinion would slowly change. But you are right thier whole government system is based on corruption and to stop that the vote in another terrorist group, who has the same goals as the PLO. what changes have the Hamas taken to control the corruption, what changes have they taken in regards to peace with Israel. So far they have stated they dream of a world map without Israel on it, and that NO palestinian will be arrested for acting again'st the occupation of israel. How do you see change in that. They can't win because they continuily act to destroy the peace process every chance they get. They continue to cry they are the underdog, but fail to do anything for themselfs. They continue to produce hate in thier schools, thier religious services, and thru thier governments actions. No Israel does not hold all the cards, The arab armies have the trump hand in all this, perhaps the only reason that Israel has not taken direct military action to solve the problem, that and world opinion and what thier actions maybe . Regardless the Arab world has had thier hands in creating this problem dating back before 1948. And they should have a role to play in finding a solution. Israel has military,enconomic superemacy because it is forced to in order to survive, The palestinians must do the same thing if they are to survive. But instead sit and do nothing and then cry to the world and blame Israel for thier problems. they don't have to be miricle workers,but they have to show they are atleast trying.

Gosthacked: I guess that depends on which history book you read, they way i read it as Egypt made the first move by blocking Israelis ships in the Suez canal and the gulf of aquaba. An act of war. Sinai campaign As for this war did they actually have a chioce you decide. My Webpage Actually you forgot the war in 48, and we've already explained the war in 56 So that leaves the 6 day war one in which they really had no chioce ...so i'm finding it hard to swallow the fact they are aggressive in increasing thier land holdings. when to the victory go the spoils. Perhaps that is what it looks like to you but they are still activily fighting the palestinians and with the world sittting on thier hands Israel is just protecting it's people the only way the world will allow them...

To which i replied sacastically (refering to the link i provided): It means they speak of peace but thier actions show other wise. And how can you take any of those polls seriouily when the Hamas government makes statements like the ones below. Don't try and blow smoke up my arse when this government was voted in by the Palestinian people, and don't tell me they did not know of thier agenda before they voted....If they truily wanted peace they would have voted for peace.... How about the quote above it was taken from the globe and mail Apr 19 th, do they sound like the ramblings of a government or people that want peace, Like i said before actions talk louder than words...and if the people are not doing anything about Hamas policy then they must agree with it.. My Webpage

BD: I see it as the Israelis doing all the giving and the Hamas giving nothing. I also see it as when the Palestinians get everything they claim rights to there still will be conflict in the area , as they will not be satisified until they get it all. As for them voting for the Hamas to end the corruption, they put all thier hopes and dreams into a Terrorist organization who's sole purpose is to continue the fight in the elemination of Israel. That to me sends a clear message they are more concerned with the corruption than peace...and does nothing to support the claim that the majority want peace. My piont is that on both sides it is not a minority but the majority that drives both sides agenda's... That is what the link was for, and yes i do believe that most arabs in the region would rejoice if israel meet it's end....As for sloppy thinking , no more than someone stating that the majority of palestinians wanting peace with Israel. Because thier actions do not prove that, we do not see the palestinians making an effort to curb terrorism, police thier side of the borders, control thier people, nor changing thier minds thru thier media that peace is thier prime objective....because it is not, action speaks louder than words... I do believe i've posted before that the Israelis are no angels and have taken part in terrorist activities. What i find fustrating about this whole topic is everyone loves the under dog when in this case the underdog brought alot of thier problems on thier selfs. And while thier is no mention of just how they ended up in their current postion, and whom else share in that blame such as the other Muslim countries in that region. and just what have they done for there brothers in arms...The entire world does not care about this situation nor do they care about finding a solution...nor will they let Isreal solve it militarily so it will continue to fester until it explodes.

lost&outofcontrol: Actually i was being sarcastic, in my claim to be a reporter. if you had read the whole post it might have made sense. And i did read your research. But the facts are stating something different. I read your thread, and i think whom ever did the poll screwed it up. The palestinians support peace thru the elimination of Israel. They support peace, thru exploding themselfs in large crowds, they support peace thru riots, thru lack of action in tracking down terrorists, thru lack of law and order, by throwing rocks at soldiers...sounds like they support peace to me...tell me if you had watched your home dozed by israel would you support peace? This conflict has gone on far to long for the majority of people to live side by side and there not be conflict. If the majority of palestinians wanted peace they would police themselfs to put an end to this TIT for Tat conflict... Must not have been that bad as you got the drift on my post. They don't need me for that ,they've done it all by themselfs. And have you read the link i provided you see that a recent political member of Hamas" if there is such a thing" had been quoted as saying as much. Have you been to the Gaza strip or west bank, or are you basing your opinon on just what you read.... Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said: The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism. For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.

BD: Everything meaning the Gaza and the west bank. If you are suggesting that the Hamas will be satisified with thier current demands of israel pulling out of all of Gaza or the west bank your wrong. ( taken from the link i provided) No Hamas leader has made a move to renounce or even revise the poisonous Hamas charter, which calls for the obliteration of Israel and vows to "raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." To the contrary, Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar told the Chinese news agency Xinhua this month that "I dream of hanging a huge map of the world on the wall at my Gaza home which does not show Israel on it." This dream, he said, "will become real one day. I'm certain of this because there is no place for the State of Israel on this land." Some moderation. Perhaps it doers include a few of them, but not all. Just what rights are they deprived of ? There may be a few that actually support the peace process, but the majority have spoken thru thier votes for the Hamas or thier actions.. the Israelis are tried of being blown up, and shoved around by the Arabs in the region, so if you are suggesting that there will be no lasting peace until the palestians are driven from the land your right... And it's not a small, radical bloc of the population. unless the hamas rigged the election somehow...and somehow that will be israel's fault as well... Yes and i created that web site i provided as well, in fact i'm a writer for the globe and mail. Hamas party officals have stated publically thier goals in regards to Israel. No where did they mention about taking long hot showers together, shaking hands thru the fence, or dating each others sisters....

Gosthacked: Maybe you can explain to me how the Israel-arab war or the 6 day war was an act of terrorism or an act of agression. And what did you mean that Israel is an aggressive state, are you suggesting aggressive in terms of expanding it's boaders, or aggressive in terms of defending it's nation. And i suppose that Iran had not given any cause for Israel or the US to take some form of action.

BD: Giving the palestians everything will solve nothing. The arabs in the region are not going to be happy until Israel ceases to exist. Which begs the question why give them anything, if thier only focus is elimination of the state of Israel. It's easy for some to blame Israel for all thier problems, but it's hard to feel sorry for a people who can't do anything for themselfs. My Webpage

An interesting read of what our military goals are in Afgan. My Webpage

Hollus: How can you occupy a nation that has never existed, When was it founded and by whom ?Where is its borders,What was it's capital,what was it's form of government. Can you answer any of those questions. And why is it that Israel is the only nation to have occupied territory, are we saying that no other nation has expanded it's borders since 1907, or since the UN resolution. WHy is it you don't list any human rights violations by the PA again'st it's own people or palestinian humna rights violation.... Your not reporting the whole story but your version. Are palestinians Israelis citizens? where do the PA's assistance cash go,anyway...Have you even read any of this trash, can you back any of it up with fact. And whom is arming the palestinians, The US government has supplied arms to Isreal for years now, atleast 4 adminstrations i'm sure they know what laws they are breaking as they make them. But then again the US has supplied alot of countries with wpns has it not. Threatens the US security in which way, WHO strongly condemns Israel occupation, the arab world or are you talking the western world and just what have they done about it....

What do you guys make of this ? And what kind of message is China trying to send ? China beefs up international protection initiatives China is including protective elements in its UN force deployment to Sudan as Beijing edges towards a more active involvement in international peacekeeping operations. "They are very conscious of crossing the threshold and [are] talking about 'security' and a 'protective force', not combat troops," a Beijing-based source told Jane's. "The eventual goal is to start deploying more robust contingents that don't rely on others for security." China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) has committed a contingent of 435 personnel to the UN Mission in Sudan (UNMIS), which has an authorised military strength of 10,000, including a 4,000-strong dedicated protective force. The PLA troops will be based at Wau in Sector Two of the UNMIS area. The PLA began training for this mission in early 2005 and deployed an advance party of 25 personnel in August 2005. A second advance party of 25 left for Sudan on 3 April, with the main body expected to depart for Khartoum around May. Drawn from the Jinan Military Region, the PLA contingent is mainly mandated to help rebuild infrastructure and destroy weapons. It includes 275 engineers, 100 transport personnel and 60 medical personnel. A one-platoon protective element is discretely integrated among these troops, sources said. It is not known whether the PLA has previously included dedicated security personnel in its limited number of UN peacekeeping deployments. However, sources said, Beijing clearly aims to "move down this path incrementally". China has had limited involvement in UN peacekeeping operations since joining the organisation in 1972. It had deployed just 522 military observers, liaison officers or advisors on UN peacekeeping missions by late 2000, but then began to re-evaluate its policy and is gradually becoming more active. UNMIS was launched after the UN Security Council adopted a resolution on 24 March 2005 intended to support a peace agreement concluded by the government of Sudan and the Sudan People's Liberation Movement/Army. Separately, Beijing and Khartoum pledged to enhance bilateral military co-operation during a visit to China in early April by Sudanese Defence Minister Abdel Rahim Mohamed Hussein. China rethinks UN role (jdw.janes.com, 08/05/02)

BD: I think that "we" have already placed finding a solution on the back burner. if this is to be resolved it is going to have to be Israel and palestine and we both know were that is going. I think both sides are experiancing increases to thier populations and this will only complicate matters even worse unless something is done soon in the next 5 years or less. Sooner or later those camps are going to explode somewhere. and it's not going to be pretty.

Renegade: The reason i tied it into the CPP was after you retire "hang up the gloves for good", you no longer have a requirement for UI , i may be wrong. As for the bonus part it could act as an incentive for some not to collect UI and pad the CPP which is not all that good. I'm not an insurance expert, but i know some life insurance companys offer return of contribution after a certin period of time or allow you to borrow again'st it's equity. Besides this is not a company but our government, which has used that monies for 40 years to invest in what ever,other programs, a source of revenue etc....Perhaps if we forced them to invest that monies into revenue generating Canadian sources ,it would serve to pay those that require UI, perhaps even generate some funds, and investment back into our country maybe into job creation ventures. like new hyways etc etc. Just a thought. I'm sure after even 20 years of contributing without collecting UI there must be some kind of bonus that the government could dish out. Or is the program in the red like everything else?

GostHacked: If you mean by being americanized that the Canadian military has taken on a more aggresive roll. Your wrong, a vast majority of our training is aggresive military type training meaning offensive and defensive warfare. Our "peacekeeping role" is a myth invented by our government to trick the public into thinking we were not a real army but just handed out candy and teddy bears... We are a target regardless of what we do, sticking our heads in the sand will not help us either. We as a country have already said we agree "we are at war with terrorism" after that it was pretty much down hill from there in regards to staying off the terrorist target list. SO are you saying we should stop showing the news or we should stop our mission in afgan because some bad guys might hurt us.... I would'nt take us off thier radar screen, but they got bigger fish to fry than Canada...

Renegade: Or perhaps modify the existing service, make it available to all, and base the pay outs on what you have contributed into it. and if you never collect it by the time you retire it should be added onto your CPP somehow as a bonus of some sort.

I think it would be safe to say that there are only a few solutions that would be exceptable to the rest of the world to solve this. Have Israel pull back to the orginal borders, pull back all it's troops all of it's people. Then complete the wall around the borders in which they share with Palestine. and shut both borders down. effective sending them both to thier rooms, separating them once and for all... OR Have Israel pay them off for any land claims they can prove, allow them to stay by offering them citizenship, or involve the other muslim countries to take them in. offer them what ever it takes with exception of thier own homeland of palestine. There is to much hate on both sides. it will take serveral generations to get rid of the hate. the road they have taken now is only going to broaden the conflict. sooner or later Israel will declare war, and drive them out once and for all.

Renegade I've got a silly question, i've been employed in the military for some 26 years now, UI is regularly deducted of my pay check as with everyones,.however at a retirement seminar we were told that we can not collect UI as we would be recieving a pension. The only way we could effectivly collect UI is to get employed again and work for the required time...then and only then could we collect it,and only at the rate of our 2 and job. So for some it's not an insurance plan but just another tax.

quinton: I don't think Canada is ready for any of your suggestions, not now or the foreseeable future. But i do agree with you that something could be done. I think Hicksey hit the nail on the head, a little bit at a time is the key to sucess. I think we should start by educating our children, and for that matter the adults.Via the schools and media. The govenment could standardize our waste mangement practices, like many european countrys and some Ontario cities have. By forcing citizens to sort thier garbage for recyling plants. IE, glass, plastics, metal in one container, paper products in another and wet garbage (food,soiled paper products, lawn and garden waste) into another. And reusing these recyled products, i know Ontario Government has produced the containers needed for this out of reclyed material it has collected and are provided for free to each household. Although not self suffient they do reclaim a lions share of taxes required to operate, collect and dispose of our waste. Plus reduce loads on land fill sites, and save on resources by reclyling them. Below are some web sites about Ontario efforts, i'm sure ontario is not the only province with some sort of enviromental plan. My Webpage Below are sites from germany considered a world leader in reclying, but keep in mind they have been at this for some time now. but it gives us an idea on what can be achieved. and perhaps slow down our useage of our resources. My Webpage My Webpage My Webpage With all the real wasteage of our tax dollars i'm sure we can scrap together a couple million or more for R+D on creating new ways to handle our sewage problems by it from better treatment methods or better disposal methods...pumping our sewage into our waterways is not the answer, have you seen the halifax harbour it not only reeks but when the tide is in so is raw sewage...Islands of shit paper with large chunks of human crap on them is not treated waste to me.... I'm sure with tech of the day we should be able to come up with a cost efficient method of getting rid of our sewage with out providing so much impact on our waterways which again reflects on our natural resources.

gerryhatrick: Until the get the bill and find out they have to increase our taxes or cut other funding, and polls that have already been run have clearly shown that the military is not Canadians main concern which translates into what ever is left over the military can have... I think Canadians would be shocked to find out just how under equipped we are... Support of the Afgan mission is a small part of my piont, which is really if there was as much concern about our armed forces as you say, The people of Canada would be screaming or demanding something be done. And thats not what we see or hear. like i said before time for debate for afgan is to late for the current mandate and to soon for the next one. When demands for a debate are coming from some liberals "and the NDP" the troops already have over 2 years of blood seat and tears invested in Afgan, with still a year and a half left. this is not the time for debate period....them and the country should have had this debate 3 years ago before one of our soldiers died....and had the debate decided we've changed our mind what message would have that sent to the troops....Sorry we screwed up, but hey we are bringing you home...all your effort ,time, lifes were for nothing... Whats disgusting is asking a soldier to risk his life on a whim that was not debated or discused prior to our country sending them there. And more disgusting is telling him "sorry about your comrads" maybe next time we'll find a worthy mssion for you to die for....

Gosthacked: Everyone always cheers on the underdog, poor palestians, forced to live like animals, occupied by the Israelis army. For what reason are they occupied ? And why is it considered occupied land when thier are no other nations that have occupied lands. My Webpage My Webpage My Webpage

BD: Nobody likes to here that the work you've been doing is no longer worth the effort, or the government shuts it down due to costs, as for counter productive that depends on whom you ask i guess. For me personally and perhaps i have more faith in our government than i should, But i'm assuming that before Canada hit's the red button and sends it troops somewhere that the intellects of this country have wieghed all our options and have made the best chioce for our country and the country involved.... It is the men and women that are serving this country that put thier plan into action thru thier blood sweat and tears. And in doing so strengthens thier resolve to see the mission succeed. It is also them who see the progress we make on a daily basis which again translates into driving the soldiers to work harder at making things work. Perhaps it is DND fault in not being able to describe the progress we have made,to the right people. perhaps it is our governments fault for not relaying this info to the people of Canada properly...or may be it's the people of Canada's for not listening or caring to little to late.... But i can tell you this if our soldiers thought for one second that the mission was no good they'd would not mix words...and the public would know... To whom would you trust to give you the right info on the missions progress the guy on the ground or the guy in the office...want to learn about the mission, DND has a great web site E-mail a soldier or write a soldier they'd be happy to answer all your questions, in fact many look forward to it. To answer your question for a soldier it's a matter of pride, and contributing to something good.

BD : Perhaps it is, But we have already made an investment of time,money, not to mention lives. Before the government pulls out it they should have a better reason than it's not the "right mission"...And if that is true then the people of Canada should think long and hard before sending us out on the next mission as thier decisions have a price one that includes lives...

gerryhatrick: I think your statement is somewhat true, most Canadians do support our troops verbally, but thats were it ends. there have been polls done on this forum and else where where our troops don't even rate in the top ten priorites of Canadians. So while Canadians will say they support thier troops, they are not willing to support them if it means cutting other programs or projects. Some Canadians have even written there MP's in regards to the shape our military is in. But the majority have not even done this small step. because they know that the funding will have to come from somewhere. My piont is supporting your troops means more than rah rah rah, go troops, "although it is part of it" it means ensuring that they have the equipment and supplies to carry out the tasks we ask them to do, It means sending them on the right missions, it means we look after them when they are sick,tired, or in need. It means once a year we give an hour out of our time to remember the fallen, shake the hand of a vet and say thanks. It means that we fight for them as hard as the fight for us.

BD: Yes but the coalition was ramping up for thier invasion and Canada new of the US intentions long before the invasion , but then again so did the rest of the world. Canada took the less of 2 evils. Knock or not we did still had the chioce to go or not. if one was truely interested in our deployment, are we saying that the info is not available, because i think there is more coverage on this topic than any other deployment we've been on...IE can any one tell me about the western sahra desert mission. Yes there is some, But from a soldiers piont, Canadians are flip flopping around here, which sends the message that "perhaps afgan is not a canadian mission" it's to hard, it's not worth the effort, that the sacrafice we have already made was for nothing....Yes i know this is what i choose to do in life, and my life is in the governments hands, But canadians decided to send us over to Afgan on a mission to bring peace to the region, and to most Canadians it is an honable request. they knew things could change, they knew or ought to have known that this mission could kill Canadian soldiers. History shows us peace does not come over night... Canada's soldiers are not mindless robots we don't just die on command because some politiction decides it's a good idea ...we know that this is an honorable mission, one that is worth our sacrafices or we would not continue to volunteer in great numbers to go over. We as tax payers and voters need to be sure when we send our soldiers out on the battle field that this is what we want....keep flip flopping around and soon soldiers will start asking WHY risk our lives WHY put in all that effort only to have to quit before we even begin....

BD: They may not be as organized as thier Iraqi counterpart , but they are picking out targets and nations , IED's are placed days in advance on road net works that are frequently used by many nations. Vehicle recongntion is not that hard. As for them increasing confrontations with little gain the last Canadian soldier was killed while defending an outpost from being over run by large numbers of insurgents. Does it make sense NO, in Fact i've said it would not happen but it did...and it has happened more than once in different sectors. But if they can convince one nation to leave because of deaths then it would be a major victory on thier part and a major blow to moral of the remaining coalition forces. Most postions over there have replacements in Canada, it's built into the training, more are trained than needed to replace losses, be it from combat or breaking a leg etc...replacements can be on the ground in a couple days... So not engaging north Vietnam did not have an effect on the war. "a polictical decision" do you think that the US if allowed to engage in both ground and air campaigns in north Vietnem would have lost. Russia's defeat in Afgan was again caused by polictions restricting the military in using it's full might.