Army Guy

jdobbin: The math is actually very simple, keep in mind that 2 Brigades have already been rotated thru already. and we only have one Brigade left. I just want to stress that Canada is not here in the south alone, our Camp is made up of many different nations. each doing it's own specialized job all working towards the same goal. Anyone in the south is in a combat zone, and everyone is facing the same dangers. As for rules of engagements, if you are in the south they are going to be the same ones we work off of. everyone is on the same page, nobody, or any country in the south is confined to barracks. and if thier jobs take them off the camp then thats what they'll do. Yes senior military advisors did tell them we where not ready for another major mission, but thats what makes our country what it is, the military does not decide what mission we go on or what we do it's our elected house of parliment..And they are going to get thier monies and votes worth regardless. I've been doing this for just over 20 years now, and have yet seen a government that actually is good for the military, the closest one yet has been this one..But every Canadian knows the shape of it's military, it's not a secret. But there is no major lobby or election platform to change that, because all Canadians are good with that, yes we all say our military should be better equiped, better manned etc etc..but that is all most of us do...So we all share the blame in our current military situation. The military has always been there, and has always done what you have asked of it, and has always been quick to shout "to borrow a Navy term" AYE Ready AYE. you have told us we will be here until 2009 or beyond and thats where we will be serving our nation. Why would they, Canada is not committed, yes we have troops on the ground but we as a nation can not say for sure if we want to be there, that we support the mission...And if we can not make up our own minds then we as a nation have no rights in pionting our fingers at them...There is alot more that this nation could be doing in Afgan if the majority of government and the nation supported the mission. and until that happens we are just tredding water.

I'd like to know is why do we have to judge them, why do we have to slot them into any catagory ? What gives us the right to make any judgement on them...They have earned the right to speak out on these issues that concern thier loved ones.. I mean who in thier right mind would want to send thier sons and daughters, brothers or sisters to war, into harms way. Who would not do everything in thier power to keep thier children from harm. I will always said that serving my country has been the easist thing i've done in my life. It is my wife and kids, my parents who go thru hell and back everytime i deploy waiting has always been the hardest part. And it takes special people to do that time and time again, these people are the real hero's atleast to me. So if they want to talk let them they have atleast earned that and more... This young Cpl has volunteered to go to Afgan, as there is no other way to get slated on tour, The CF has many checks and balances in place to ensure that nobody but volunteers get sent overseas. This is what he has signed up to do, it is what he has been trained for and he, like everyone else like him want to put that training to the test. regardless of cost to himself and to his family. He's not asking everyone to understand why it is so important to him, just to respect his decission. His family may not be to crazy about his decission, but it is his to make nobody elses. Not his families, not his sisters, and certainly not ours. So he believes in the mission, so much he has volunteered, dispite of his family wishes. But i guess that is the untold story here, that being his side. Thats what makes this a non starter, a non story because it only tells of half truths, half the story, because the whole story does not sell papers.

jdobbin: Not true, Canada, denmark and the Polish have agreed to send more troops, plus germany is seeking to have it's restrictions removed. so relief is coming it is going to take some time to put it on the ground, but i would bet my pay check that this time next year they will be here. From your link The majority of that remark was aimed at what DND calls purple trades, trades that are common to each element like clerks, sup techs, etc...these people would be reroled into the army as the job is the same just the elemental training is different. IE in the army we dig trenchs,carry guns, in the airforce they stay in hotels, and i'm not sure what else they do, sing at stand up bars "top gun". To those that will leave thier jobs or trades for the combats arms trades. this is common practice to ask , Nobody will be forced to leave there current jobs or trades, they're looking for volunteers who are looking at doing something else...they normally don't get many going the other way ie from navy or airforce into the army...normally it is the other way around... so not a solution to thier problem. And these people will not be going any where without the proper training, plus completing thier pre deployment training. and if they are not capable they won't be going any where. The problem with having a military as small as ours there is never any time to rest, retrain, or recruit. and we do all that on the fly, as we have always done, don't let any of those polictical parties fool you into thinking they are willing to let us do all of those things, and have a break as well. The liberals had us slated to go into another operation upon returning from Afgan, And the NDP wanted to send us into Dafur. So regardless we are never getting a break that is the nature of the beast. Besides you don't earn polictical pionts with your troops in garison, with there feet up. Don't believe everything you read, Mr O'Conner may be the minster of national defense but he is no magician, The Vandoos will start thier rotations in 07, they will be the last Brigade group, not to have served in southern Afgan, meaning the next on the list will be the PPCLI again for thier second kick at the cat in 08, followed up by the RCR's for thier second rotation in 09. So unless there is a magical way of creating two additional Brigade groups there is no way soldiers are only serving 1 tour each...And as a piont of ref it is taken 2 to 3 years just to create and man the New CSOR BN, there is well over 12 units (BN) in a brigade. and he would need 2 of those. Besides it is a mout piont anyway, volunteers has never been a problem, ever...

belinda emerson: Just so that i'm getting this straight, Afgan perhaps the world is better off without the taliban. As long as it is not Canada doing the work or sacrifice, because that would just be foolish. Or as you put it pandering to US foreign policy which is so unCanadian. The remark about repeating the Russian experiance ,very bold perhaps you can enlighten me on how the two experiances are the same. As for creating more terrorists again another bold statement, it is easy for some to sit in thier arm chairs and piont the finger ...STOP or you will create more terrorists, kill one and 10 more will take they're place. At what piont do we all "STOP" pandering to terrorist foreign policy, when do we stop curtailing our day to day activities to avoid pissing these guys off, when do we finally stand up and for our beliefs, for our religion, for our rights. Where i'm i going with this,9/11 involved Canadians, but no more than if they had taken out 30 and shot them in the Canadian streets, and something needed to be done, a message needed to be sent, and we as a nation sent that message loud and clear. And in sending that message we agreed to rebuild Afgan, for the ground up starting with it's Elected gov't ( not a government based on our morals or values but thiers) So is it foolish to rebuild a nation that has struggled most of it's existance, to rebuild a nation that most of it's people just want peace, to be able to feed thier children, to send them to school, to grow up and learn to ride a bike or fly a kite rather than field strip an AK 47. Yes that would be foolish to even consider taking up a struggle were so many have failed, and yet we have a proud Military history of doing just that, Standing up for others in thier time of need. This has been used many times to piont out what an evil gov't Afgan has, and yet for all the headlines this story made, do you even know what became of him, was he put to death, or did the Afgan Gov't in the end do what was right, by our standards. When you ask a soldier here "why are me here" they'll piont to the Afgan people, they don't have a 10 page polictically correct speach for us, it's all about the people.. If you asked Is it all worth it, Yes it is worth it, The fact that soldiers volunteer serveral times speaks volumes about how soldiers believe in this mission...To believe in something so much to risk thier lives over and over again...but somehow Canadians don't get that, ....they don't get the fact that the very soldiers that Canadains sent over there believe in the mission, not because they are ordered to, but because they want to on thier own free will. Why is thier word not being heard, because it is thier jobs, because our words do not count, and yet like any other Canadian we pay taxes, we have families, children, homes ,etc etc plus risk our lives when called upon ...why would you chose not to listen to us... Everyone is entitled to thier opinions, it's a right,...and not everyone is going to agree with the mission, but it really should be based on fact, not just because it's an american thing, nor "were creating more terrorists", or some policitcal wieny says it so, but because you have made a chioce based on all the available facts. I'm over here today, because i volunteered for the second time, because deep down in my heart i believe it the right thing to do. that the Afgan people are worth my blood, sweat, and tears. Because life is far from perfect, and sometimes someone has to pull thier head out of the sand, to say enough is enough and to draw a line in the sand and boldly state "cross that line and you will pay" Not because it is an american thing to do, but the right thing to do, And not because were afraid of creating more terrorist, because sooner or later Allah is going to run out of virgins.

Argus: Argus i want to thank you for sharing this with us, it is very powerful, very well written, and a must read for everyone. I actually had to sit down and read it over serveral times, it has brought back some very ,very, powerful emotions, which i thought were buried deep, not only in myself but to all i shared it with. Thank Argus for sharing. Thank you piper

TravellingTimeMachineSalesman : Not true, read the cas reports again, there was serveral cas, including a few deaths. I'm glad your taking an interest in the CAR, and they do have a colorful past. But this is but one unit, of troops. nothing more. those members are now retired or are in the other Inf regts. the same Inf regts doing the fighting now. And it will be serveral years now before the CSOR becomes reality. So for now i guess your stuck with us ,maybe you can start cheering on the guys that are doing the job. I know you mean well, but we've buried the Regt along time ago, it's time to let go.

KillJoy: Been on this board for a long time, Screaming blue murder until my head exploded, change is always slow in coming, but things are alot different here now, the people are more receptive to "things Military". when i first got here just saying Military was like farting in church, everyone does it, just not openily. Hang in there, we all need more soldiers on line talking to the people who pay our wages. getting out our views on things. Theres alot of good people here and i've learned more from them than they have from me. it's all good. JAh-man: We've been in Afgan much longer than a year, and those that we are fighting are still the bad guys, taliban, Al quida, and mercs from across the muslim world. And we are not bringing about a form of democracy that we in Canada have, Yes it was an elected government, and it does have a parliment, but that is where the similarity ends, it is a muslim nation, with alot of hard core muslim laws, some of which have been curtailed because of our presence here, but most are laws in which they have decided upon. I just wanted to make that clear that it is not a pupet government made in our image that we are setting up, but thier government that hopefully is thier well after we are gone. I'd also like to make it clear that we are here because the afgan Government has asked us to be here, to assist them in rebuilding thier army, police forces, to assist in rebuilding Infra structure, to help secure thier nation until they can do it themselfs. We will be finished when the Afgan government asks us to leave. Or Canadians lose faith in the mission. Canada's military history is full of pride, and Canada has a long history of elite fighting forces, 1 st para BN, the special service force( combined US/ Canadian unit), even a SAS regt from 47 to 49 until it was disbanded, CAR and much more. all served with pride ,all have served Canada with honor, don't get confused from my last post, the dark days of the CAR was brought about by the actions of a few. and should not tarnish the rest of the regt.

Hey Killjoy thought you could use a fire team partner...I First read these posts a few days ago got a chuckle out of them, then things were getting a little heated. I spent sometime in the Airbourne regt, 3 CDO. 1991 to "the Parade" in 1995. DID the regt have a large displinary problem prior to deploying to Somolia, YES..it did, that much is fact and is written in the somolia report and serveral books written about the Regt IE "Pegasus" and others. Did everyone know about it. again Yes they did. Did it have a racist problem, in what we regard as racist today yes it did, not only in 2 CDO, but the entire Regt had it's problem rednecks, it was just that 2 CDO had more than thier share, and were the ones that the finger was pionted at. Rednecks is the term i use to discribe individuals who do practice racism, everwhere. those that sported Nazi tatoos, Nazi flags in thier room, racist reading material, and where not shy about it. These are not actions of a professional soldier, but actions of a racist. That being said the Regt did produce alot of our countries best warriors, and alot of good people served in the Regt and i do not want to take away any of that. But to say the CAR was not a unit with alot of problems prior to deployment, is just wrong. There was the great purges, and most of those rednecks and arseholes were shown the door after they returned from Somolia only because they were now under a micro scope and new leadership....The Airbourne needed Somolia in the sense it needed the spot light, it needed to get rid of the bags of hammers that were dragging the good name of the Regt thru the mud, along with the good men that helped make that name. But like everything to little to late, and to make up for that they disbanded it, because they really did not want to fix it...And for that they punished the wrong people, people like the vets of 1st para, and those CAR members that did serve Canada proud... TravellingTimeMachineSalesman: These guys are Canadian soldiers and had been issued Rules of engagements although some what lose in Somolia they still had RO&E to follow, written in accordance with Canadian law in black and white and can not be left to the interputation of the soldier, even a three year could read them and understand them. A soldier does not "lose" his patients with local theafs only trying to eat, or make a buck. We follow Canadian law to the letter regardless of where we are, you don't then your arrested and charged, end of story... It's against Canadian law, the geneva convention, Military law, and goes again'st every moral value Canadians are taught. break those laws and your going to do time, and be release from our countries service, there is no gray area here, judges do not understand gray, "like the locals do it" your not a local and you are representing our nation, can't live up to those standards set out by the people of Canada or the high standards set up by our military then it's time to step off. Ask them, ask them if the ever experiance racism in the CAR, a unit made up of Canadians from across this country. What makes the CAR any different than any other population center in Canada. Are you saying that racism does not exist in Canada, of course it does, why would it not exist in a Canadian military unit. I think your pissed because you are finding out that the CAR chrome armour has some tarnish on it. But hey i'm only a guy that served in the CAR, there is tones of materials out there read up on it. I think these two posts speak volumes, spoken by two soldiers, someone that has strapped on the gear been there and done that lots. And yet some of you have brushed thier opinons aside as meaniless. And they are bang on in thier accessment, Afgan is not about elite forces JTF or airbourne. It's about soldiers on the ground , not dangling from a chute, or fast roping like in the movies. All of which once on the ground are no more agile or nimble than thier Mech counterparts. You guys make it sound like thats all we do all day is drive around in our LAV's beating the bushes, in Mudusa i rarely seen our LAV, spent my time humping everything i owned on my back. This war is being won and it's being won by all of our Soldiers period.

I think Killjoy hit the nail on the head, This has been policy for years regardless if you are wounded or killed while on deployment. And it needs to be made clear that this is not a "new conservative policy." In order to collect all the extra benifits you must remain in threater (in the area that is considered a combat zone) i should comment that bennifits are cut regardless if you are out of threater for more than 25 days. no exceptions..And most soldiers have no problem with this.. Those wounded or disabled in threater do or will recieve a different package of benifits, perhaps not as much as benifits they recieve in threater but they are for a longer period of time and are tax free. Whatchould be addressed is the new policy of cash pay outs for disabled personal, Up to 250,000 Vice the old policy which gave a soldier a small medical pension for life and was adjusted for inflation, plus other little benifits that ensured long term care was given to our vets,. Now 250,000 sounds like alot, but some of these guys will not be able to find employment again. and like most people 250,000 won't go very far unless you invest it. once that is gone that is it...your on your own... So yes those benifits could be looked at, and perhaps changed. that would ensure long term benifits. I aslo want to mention, what Argus has already pionted out, we are well payed when compared to other militaries thru out the world, but were they lack in pay they make up for in other benifits that Canadian soldiers do not haveor we have lost due to cuts.. not many soldiers complain about the amount we are paid, don't get me wrong we like raises like everyone else. But the pay is good. It's our equipment we love to bitch about.

Although it has been sometime since anything was reported in the media, But DND has been putting together a CSOR or special operations regt, and has been training soldiers for sometime. can't say when thier training will end. or what caliber it is. My personal opinion is it will be some time before they are of the same caliber as the CAR, it will take years of training to reach that level. Don't get me wrong thier training is some of the toughest i've seen, but it takes a while for the unit to jel together.

BubberMiley: That way of thinking is a double edged sword, By dealing with these guys you are giving credence to solving problems thru violence. That if you want to be heard start blowing up stuff, or arm yourself and impose your will thru force. We've already have seen examples of this in history, the PLO, Hamas, etc etc..all have gain polictical power thru violence..In fact nothing good has become of it, what have they solved in those regions...except more violence... So by not negotiating with them we will not eliminated terrorism and on the same note by giving in to them and making them part of the solution we are saying violence is one tool they may use to be heard or make thier own changes.. It's a good thing Layton carries his families jewels in his purse, and not a hand gun. At what piont do we stand up and say enough is enough, and stand up for what we believe..

jdobbin: It's a loss for all of us, there is one thing i will never get use to here, is paying tribute to fallen comrads and saying our final good byes. Hero's one and all, and may they never be forgotten. My thoughts and prayers are for the families, they are the ones that need our support now. Perhaps Canadians at home will take a page from our book, and show the same resolve and passion for this mission as we do, everyday becoming more determined to bring peace to this region. These troops were conducting re construction, something that was reported a few days ago as "not" happening. now you can see why things get confusing. the media is not researching thier stories, and printing what ever they want. A fact they constantly remind us off, in fact they are in the same base camp that we share. but they are heavily tasked and we rarely have access to them, kind of ironic... Yes the G-wagons were re-directed to threater, but they were already part of a planned purchase arrange before the Afgan mission. as for the leo's we've owned them before i joined the forces, and that was more DND bringing over equipment we already had... The Conservatives did actually put some cash aside for new chinnoks, 15 i think but they are not due until 2010. these helos would really have an effect on how many convoys we put on the road... Then again niether did the conseratives. but the opposition arn't really be debating the fact of lack of equipment,are they. But that is not what the troops are saying right now. I think that message is slow getting out.

My time back at Base Camp is coming to a close, and won't be able to post for awhile. gerryhatrick: Yes, Afghanistan is a emotional issue, but not just for me, for the rest of us here, for those families awaiting the return of thier loved ones, for those wifes, girlfriends that spend most of thier day watching the news hoping the next attack does not claim thier loved one, For those comrads that were left Back in Canada, And i'm hoping for the rest of the country. I have looked at the information, and for reasons already stated it is not a valid opition, And if Mr. layton or this senator had actually taken a tour of Afgan and talked to it's people they would not be spewing this defeatist attitude. That only serves to strenghten the enemies cause. Nothing more. The taliban insurgents are nothing more than bullies, thugs, and murders, anyone that could kill or maim a young child "there still babies, for christ sake" for as little as going to school, or talking to a coalition soldier. Think about that for a minute..... because i think about my time i shared my lunch with a young girl that had her hands cut off with an axe, and her father murdered in front of her for going to school...(she was 6 years old at the time) A mere baby herself...emotional Damn right it's emotional. Everyday Canadians are guilted into sending monie to relief agencys by TV commercials such as feed the children, or world famine but Canadians are writing the Afgans off, But i've yet to see any of those organizations here in Afgan, are those nations that do recieve thier help any more deserving "NO", and yet, we as a nation do not think Afgan is worth the effort, the investment, the lives of our soldiers. These people need our help, they need us to prop them up again, for someone to say we've got your back, we're here to help. Canadians forgot that, Canadians forget that historically that is what we do, we help those in need... So in regards to the taliban: They do not or should not be allowed to share power in running that country. In fact they as a group should not even be allowed in the country. And instead of us talking about surrendering or calling it a tie, and bringing them in to share power, everyone in the west should be directing all thier energies towards ensuring these vermin are eliminated and can not spread thier hate to the afgan people any more. And if that draws more insurgents with the same mind set and ideals out of the woodwork.... i say bring it on baby...We as a nation need to stay focused. They maybe polictically opposite but they share the same opinons, or solutions. and that does not make it the right solution or direction we should traval. And maybe your right, i do not or have not proclaim to be an expert, but the real differance is i'm getting my info first hand, not off sanitisied,and edited reports. I've seen the taliban and thier tactics up close and personal, i've seen the pain and destruction they have delivered to thier own people. I see it every day. i talk to the people every day. What i bring to the table is the only my opinon, one that i must add is not based on selling more copies, or digging for votes. i have nothing to gain by telling you what i see or say, other than perhaps another tour in this country. Just because it is published in the media does not mean it is true, or the best decission, but rather someones opinion...

watching&waiting: Don't get me wrong i'm a big fan of the present government, but like any government they are guide by opinion polls and votes, and yes they atleast have a plan in place, and have committed money to boast DND. in the long term. But my piont is are they doing everything they can, is the people of Canada doing all they can in preasuring the government into action. And i'll give you an example They just decided to put over 13 bil on our nations debt, which in normal times would have been a good plan, in fact an excellant idea. But soldiers are dying today, and tommorrow because we don't have CH-47 chinnok helos. a small portion of this money could have purchased a few of these a/c used off the US to temp fill in our needs and save lives.. Thanks for your praise. As for gerry, well he is a source of entertainment for us over here, and is entitled to his opinion just wish we could turn him to our side so he could channel his energy for our cause. Gerryhatrick: Sounds like a page out of the Layton hand book, let me ask you gerry why would we traval this far down this road to give the current elected government back to the same people we wrestled it's control from. Why did we come over here in the first place? Why did i have to watch 10 close comrads get loaded onto the back of a herc? Both the senator and Mr. Layton need to come over here and take a tour, and see for themselfs that the hills are not crawling with the taliban. that is if they can pull there balls out of thier purses. And they will be defeated with direct action. Our last confrontation proved that. it's to bad that only soldiers see that...It's to bad Canadians did'nt listen to thier soldiers.

The most annoying Ted Simonet "the Canadian tire guy", i mean come on Jack layton, this guy looks like a weasel, talks like a weasel, dresses like a weasel, Oh i forgot, most annoying. YA Layton hands down...

gerryhatrick: What accusation was that ? It's pretty easy to say "i support our troops" in fact it is all the rage and fashionable to do so, in fact one could be called a terrorist or anarchist if one did not say "we support our troops" But with all this suggested support DND should not be wanting anything, the people would be demanding it be so. That is not happening. Soldiers are dieing because the real support they need is not there. So i ask you gerry what do you do to show your support for the troops ? other than just say you do. good come back, lets see just this month i've been called a terrorist, a merc for hire by the NDP and despicable by you twice, and now your suggesting i'm not Canadian...Your hurting my feelings gerry.. But sorry to burst your bubble but yes, I'm 100 % Canadian in fact i openily flaunt it, i have a huge Canadian flag on the sleeve of my uniform, one on my ruck sack, i have a Canadian flag tatoo to my upper shoulder with "proud to serve" written underneath, in fact my new skivies i just recieved from home have red maple leafs all over them...I drink Canadian, my favorite cookies are maple, shaped like maple leafs, my favorite hockey team is You guess it Toronto Maple leafs, "only a die hard Canadian would cheer for toronto". Whooa, slow down spike, re-read both posts carefully this time, i asked him a question, perhaps we should get him to clarify his intent or meaning of his post in question. Because thats not what i said, what i did suggest was that 100 % of Canadians do not support the troops , thats a pretty big claim with no proof. and those that do not support them are afraid to say so , afraid to be labeled. Stop jumping to conclusions, got a question about one of my posts ask. i'll explain it to you.

Jdobbin: The support you mention is well recieved, and i thank you all for it. But take a minute and view it from our side. one thing that you have to understand that in our profession there can be "no indecission", no hesitation, we must have a can do attitude and if we don't have the solution to a problem we invent one, don't have the right equipment we build it or make do....now transfer this way of getting things done to the outside world and we can not understand WHY ? Why there is a need for debate ? Why canadians support the troops but not the mission ? Why do we not have all the right equipment, such as Big Honking helo's? Why with all this support that things are not getting down? I guess my piont is that perhaps Canadians need to step it up a notch, by putting those yellow ribbons in an envelope and sending them to your MP's demanding that the government buy us the equipment we need, equipment that will save lives. Our big honkin helos are not due in until 2010, in the mean time soldiers travel by road. just one example... If Canadians put as much effort into getting us home ,into supporting the mission this thing would be a done deal by now, If all canadians supported the mission our government would be pouring more funding into re construction, rebuilding, more troops on the ground, "Sort of build it and they will come" and other nations would follow suit. Instead our current government has to put out fires started by the NDP, and now most of the liberals, and spending most of thier energy defending the mission. Canadians are not getting the true picture of events here from the media, and in this task the media has failed the public, allowing personal feelings, opinions and emotions to get involved. no wonder Canadians are confused about this mission. And the media is fueling this doubt to sell more copies. One has just got to look at how the same events are covered...One sucide bomber attacks us and we are lossing the war, and the taliban are taking back the country, while the next paper reports it as a desparite attack, of an army on it's last legs...even i'm getting confused and i was there... An army that size does not just lose over 500 of it's fighters in one attack and not have an effect. there losses out number ours every day, by many times... and we are not going to get rid of them completely until the rest of the mission gears up to full potential IE reconstruction, polictical reform etc etc. The proof is in the history, every peace keeping ,peace making mission that has been sucessful has been long term, well over 10 years, rebuilding a nation is not a fast order restrauant. generations of problems need to be solved one person at a time. long imbedded ideals need to be changed. I know this history post will come back and bite me on the ass, History has shown us that Afgan has never been at peace...they will not be controlled or influenced by any nations...the british, russian, all tried and failed. we are not there to conquor any one, in fact we make it a piont to say we are just there to help then leaving...But then again we knew all that history before we went did we not. then Why did we not say "NO" at that time Lets not confuse the issue, there may be a lack of progress, but that does not mean they are sitting around the barracks getting suntans to suggest it, is dishonoring them and thier accomplishments. As i said before the PRT is made up of many sections and depts, construction teams have been outside the wire regularly, doing other taskings, what your article failed to mention is the rebuilding of the villages destroyed during our last offensive. But rebuilding villiages don't sell papers like destoying them does. I blame alot of things, the government, the media it self, and politics for taking advantage of this whole mission in order to sell copies or get votes.

mr-trudo: What your really saying that Canadians are scared to be labeled anarcharists or terrorists, and would much rather smile and grin and go with the flow. Rather than speak out on what they truely believe. This show of patroitism scares you because it's an american thing, waving the flag, putting a bumper sticker on your car. and as Canadians have to hate or be very wary of everything american. There is nothing wrong with Canadians showing how patroitic they are in fact it is kind of refreshing. Far from being mind numbing and i think your reading to much into it. Are we talking about Lowell green from the ottawa area. The demand for these stickers is high perhaps Canadians are using the US version, instead, hardly backs your theory. Your post drips with anti american punch lines and references, but would it not make since that two countries not all that different may have some of the same policies, or goals. But then again it has been the fashion lately to bash everything american, regardless of the real reason we are involved in Afgan. but because the Americans were thier first .it has to be bad. Something we have not seen by the Liberals or NDP...give me a break, if thier is a vote to be grab out there all the parties are in there like dirty shirts, only that is the current governments job is it not, to drum up support for the Military and it's current mission. And you don't give the avg Canadian much credit for being able to sit down and figure this out.. and if this mindless patriotism as you called it was working then why are the polls showing something totally different. The bumper stickers, were orginated by the military family resource centers across the country to allow family members and the troops to show support for thier comrads, the idea took off , with the legion, getting involved... the other stickers are folks taking advantage of supply and demand and making a buck... The Red shirt fridays and ottawa event was planned and organised by serveral wifes from Petawawa,ont ... not by the Tories, not by DND, but a few wifes to show thier support for thier spouses now serving overseas...The PM was asked to address the people as were the CDS....because that who they wanted to hear from...So much for your propaganda stunt theory... But rather military families showing thier support showing thier spouses that are serving in Afgan that they are not forgotten, and are always on thier minds..

Jdobbin: Thats not the message that the troops are getting, actions speak louder than words, and so far we have yet seen any action on the part of the majority of Canadians. There are alot of Canadians out there that do support us, and to them i say thank you, your support means everything. The Taliban will be defeated by direct action, and until the Afgan armed forces grows large enough that task has fell on NATO, despite everything you read in the media. we are winning, but it is a slow process. to bad Canadians are not patient enough to see that that thru. This is another example of the media printing garbage or half truths, The last 4 soldiers to be killed were from the PRT, the reconstruction team is involved in constrution projects, and winning the hearts and minds of the locals. The reconstruction team is made up of many different teams if you will, construction is just one, there is the polictical side, the construction side, the public relation side. ETC these teams are as busy as the Battle group. Lets keep our eye on the ball here, because it is printed does not make it true. I'm sure this reporter just made a few new Army friends with this trash...The same guys that will be providing him a protection detail when he goes outside the wire... geoffrey: Thanks for the vote of confidence, it means alot.

You got that right. Further more any single one of them could've gotten out of their mission to Afghanistan by simply claiming their family needed them right now or just about any other reasonable excuse. IOW, the soldiers in Afghanistan are members of a volunteer army who more-or-less volunteered to go to Afghanistan as well. Any one of them could've opted out and been replaced. . This is something I am not entirely clear about. I understand it is so with the reservists but don't know if it holds true for the regulars. Perhaps Army Guy could enlighten us. Killjoy is right, both reg and res force volunteer for these missions, and there is alot of reasons that a soldier could use "NOT" to go, there is the medical which includes mental and phyiscal health reasons.IE tell them you hear voices and your grounded, There is the Padre, that there is any family issues, IE relationship problems ,and your grounded, Money problems and your grounded, problems with the law, IE that you would have to make a court apperance your grounded I seen a guy go through a full year of training only to get a speeding ticket, he was kept back. any divorce, family court, etc etc your grounded... They want soldiers there that are going to be able to give 150% to the mission, and not thinking about thier kids are all right , or the wife is taking him to the cleaners at court because he was not there. It's not the place you want to be when your head is up "as we say up your ass". All that being said they never have much problem filling out the ranks for each mission, which speaks volumes for the type of people in the military and the support for our mission. I say "ours" because the majority of Canadians don't believe in it any more. All of us over here are here because we want to be, because we believe in what we are doing. I'd also like to mention that a good majority of us are here on our 2 or 3 tour. that has got to say something about the mission and how we feel about it.

jdobbin: I can not comment on something that i did not take part in, you wanted to know about procedure, and i gave it to you, What is piont are you trying to make here that we are treating these scumbags according to geneva convention. Yes they are. Does the Government of Canada care what happens to them after we hand them over ,Yes they do. But lets not get all teary eyed , these guys are harden scumbags that would not afford me or any of my troops the same treatment . or for that matter any westerner. they'd soon as hack your head of with a dull knife for shits an giggles...or for that matter any Afgany who did not subscibe to thier thinking...And if they even for a second stepped outside the rules of conduct for a prisoner i would not think twice about putting a round into. There is an investagation done for every event, regardless if it made it into the paper or not. any discharge of a wpn is looked into. By many different levels, including ones run by the government officals outside DND.

Jbobbin: DND does keep records of all prisoners, when and how they were turned over, after that it becomes a political problem on how they are treated, and they do tract that, as we no longer hand prisoners over to the US , but rather to the afgan authorities. All prisoners are treated humanily as possiable by Canadian soldiers. that is the Law...should we Care how the other countries treat them , to a piont , that piont being they are not being summarily excuted. Durgan: That would depend on your meaning of status ? Can a nation without a large military effect anything on the world stage. Are you saying that the US, russia, China, the UK would have the same influence they have now, without large militaries. military spending is a bottomless pit, you mean like alot of things we spend our tax dollars on, although it's ok when it's citizens are in danger, or have been threatened. as for the misery of it's citizens i don't know the US has one of the largest military in the world but they enjoy a pretty good avg income, not so for all nations but for France, UK, and most of the western countries they are far from living the life of misery. Can having a large modern army guarantee it again'st attack, no but it does go along way in deterance. Im glad you have faith in NATO, or for that matter in our Military, Afganistan is not at a stand still, so you've read a few articles in the papers, I can ensure you the last battle was not a tie or a draw, it was one sided as most of our engagements are, The taliban are not even close to retaking anything back. Yes they blow up a few IED's , a few blow themselfs up in crowds, those are acts of a desparite army, not the acts of an army close to winning. There a bunch of fanitics forced to hide in holes in the mountains because that is where NATO has put them. I can tell you this when we pull up in our lavs at over 100 km an hour and dismount most are running like dogs they are...those that stay and fight are getting thier ticket punched for thier trip to allah. Explain how your quote reflects on Canada economy today, perhaps you can give us a few examples. and this is what pisses me off to no end, Canada had no problem with sending it's military forces over to Afgan , Canada's military leadership studied the problem and made it quite clear from the start that this would be a difficult mission and that Canada should be prepared for Casualties...Canadians responded "lets go a fight terrorism on thier ground and to restore order to Afgan.... We (soldiers)are doing that, now they( people of Canada) have had a change of heart, and want us out of there, it's not a Canadian mission, the Government lied to us, the mission Changed, we don't want any more soldiers to die. all BS, nothing has changed except your opinon, that an a fat chance to grab some votes What ever the reason, they've done a 180 and now want out...and for every reason the people have come up with we the soldiers have countered "you know the men and women that are there doing the fighting and dieing"...But when it comes down to it, you piont your fingers at us and declare us war mongers, a useless arm of our government , an endless monie pit. but do not forget something we are everyday Canadians made up of your brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, we are the ones that put your words into action, at the price of our lives. So reach down and find your balls you know the same ones you used to send us over here, and make up your F***ing minds what it is you want before i have to go to another ramp cerimony and watch another friend of mine loaded on to a herc, because of your lack of decission, or your lack of courage to see things through..Don't give that shit about time , these things take time, you won't give me or my comrads the time to finish this mission then i will make the same demands on you. Have your debate, number three i think it is make up your minds once and for all. I write this to you from a pile of rocks in afgan, i'm here because in volunteered to come , because it is my chosen profession, because you sent me here, because i believe it is the right thing to do, because it is a noble cause.

Yaro: With comments as the one below you make the comment you have first hand knowledge of the area hard to believe. You'd already know that the Taliban is not going to let anyone build a school, let alone attend it. much like they are doing today. even in the moderate section of Afgan. Unless it is done by the taliban for the taliban. As for your comment on thier is nothing we can do, i say BS, we are already doing it, were taking the fight to the taliban, plus we are building schools and other infra structure, OK not as fast as it is required, or as fast as we want but we are doing something, not just burying our heads in the sand waiting for the next generation to "hopefully be smart enough" to want peace... And the taliban controled atlot more than you give them credit for, although it is true they never controlled the entire country. And if the west was to withdrawal it would not take long for the taliban to be back in control back to square one, supporting any terrorist group that they could. To suggest that all we have done is pushed back the recovery time is nonsense. Afgan under taliban control is not recovery. but then again it is not our problem, it does not interfer with our hockey, our pogy check, our new Canadian way of things. How am i twisting it , perhaps you can explain to me how you can graduate and still not know how to read and write. or how can you argue that Saudi arabia has more schools even pre 1991, perhaps your confusing the migrant workforce in Saudi in your comments. So turkey and other neibouring nations have used chemical warfare on thier kurds as well, and that is typical treatment. What is your piont here you don't think Sadam got what was coming to him, you don't think him and his merry band of thugs should have been taken down by force. Again what is your piont ? that he was careful to bury the evidance, your not suggesting that we made a mistake in takinmg down this scumbag are you.

See what happens when you mix mushrooms and math at the same time. should be a friggin commerical here is your brain on mushrooms, BC mushrooms to boot... I guess they were passing these out at the NDP convention.

Yaro: So that is the answer, build a few schools and wait. I guess our job is done here then, you should send this to the Prime minister, of both countries. But i guess your reply truely reflects your first hand knowledge of the area. What do we do when the Taliban decide to cut the heads of the teachers we have supplied, what do we do when the cut the hands off the students that want an education. what do we do when they don't want schools or roads because educated people are harder to control...I don't think you understand just what the taliban want and why they are fighting so hard to keep us from winning the hearts and minds of the everyday people of Afgan. Ok a quick check on goggle and here is what i found. now if you have sources that conflict please put up the source, i'd love to read them. Education in Iraq is free. Six years of primary education are compulsory, but many children do not attend school as they must work to help support their families. Instruction is in Arabic, although in much of the Kurdish-inhabited northern region, which has been autonomous since 1991, Kurdish is used in all levels of education alongside Arabic. Only 41 percent of Iraqis aged 15 or older are literate. In the 1998–1999 academic year 3.1 million pupils attended elementary schools, and 619,114 students were enrolled in secondary schools. More students attended vocational or teacher-training institutions. Iraq has a number of large universities, including the University of Baghdād (founded in 1957), the University of Al Başrah (1964), and the University of Mosul (1967). The country also has about 20 technical institutes. My Webpage Iran: Literacy: definition: age 15 and over can read and write total population: 79.4% male: 85.6% female: 73.0% (2003 est.) My Webpage Today, Saudi Arabia's nationwide public educational system comprises eight universities, more than 24,000 schools, and a large number of colleges and other educational and training institutions. Open to every citizen, the system provides students with free education, books and health services. Over 25 percent of the annual State budget is for education including vocational training. I think it's safe to say that Iraq is not the most educated middle east country, and you'll be hard press to compare numbers of any of the Middle east countries to the Saudi's. I guess that would depend on who you talked to like the Kurds, or the Iranians, or perhaps political opponets or anyone that had something to say about sadam and his policies. so how many do you need to kill before you get to be Tyrannical anyways ? By no means i'm i standing behind any of the middle east countries and they're policies but lets not kid ourselfs and state that Iraq was the jem of the middle east. That would depend on what your opinion is on 9/11, personal i think it was an attack, provoked or not by US policy. Then there is that fact of the NATO agreement an attack on one is an attack on us all. How many terrorist plots have there been in the last 5 yrs, how many attacks, Canada alone has spent over 10 bil in updating it's homeland defenses, our government is also saying that figure is a drop in the bucket and we have along way to go. How have these attacks effected ech and every Canadian, been to the airport lately, or tried to cross the border into the US. not to mention i'm sure every Canadian could find something to spend 10 bil dollars on. With the exception of the war of 1812, Canada's military has never been used to defend our nation that was directly threaten. But rather we have always come to the aid of those allies that have. Our direct involvement in military operations has contributed to many lasting solutions, In fact almost all of the operations we have been involved with have been long lasting solutions. examples being Europe, korea, Bosina , cyprus, cold war,etc.