Army Guy

gerryhatrick: Sorry i meant to say personnel issues. Thats exactly what i meant, even the US ground commanders have commented serveral times that there is just not enough troops on the ground. That being said i don't want to take anything away from the accomplishments that US forces have done in Iraq todate. just state that thier is not enough troops on the ground to solve all the problems they face there now.

We as a nation do not apply our standards equally across the board in fact we are very open about it. Why is it we don't condemn or throw the rest of those countries under the micro scope like we do Israel. Is it because we like thier money, thier Oil, because thier the underdog. Just curious to know why we as a nation can bash the shit of Israel but not the rest of them... Why is it that alot of Canadians see the hamas or palistinians as the underdog living in squlor conditions and we say aahh them poor bastards, instead of the terrorists that they are... Is Israel the only nation responsiable for the palestinians plight ?, who will take them in? Are they free apply to live somewhere else ?

Mimas: I think you are right, Afgan could be another Iraq if we are all not prepare to go the distance in regards to funding and personal issues.. One would hope that this would be the case every time our nation decides to mobilize it's troops, our lifes depend on it. As for being underfunded, from a military piont of view, this operation has done more for equipping our forces than any other government push has done. That being said we still have a long way to go, and your right we should have never been sent into afgan in the shape we were in.

Lets not kid ourselfs here, i spent 2 months providing security to a Canadian graves team in Bosina. The serbs were very good at creating and hiding mass graves by the time Kosvo rolled around, many of my comrads were in Kosovo and they've said was almost as brutal as bosina was, and they will never recover all the sites. Just because the evidence is not there does not mean those murders did not happen. as many of those familys are still without there family members today. Serbia has gone to great lengths to push as much blame on the coalition forces as possiable, by putting the focus on deaths from Nato bombing, est at only 500 by human rights watch, and 1500 by NATO. And denying the mass graves claim or atleast down playing thier number. But then again all those involved in that operation have skeletons in thier closets. But please do not try and make the serbs involved in these killing operations as any thing less than NAZI storm troopers. My Webpage My Webpage

normanchateau: With all your excuses debunked here serveral times, by serveral different people . Your still holding the Afgan people to a higher standard than you hold "the rest of us" Canadians ...you'll never see the good that is being done in Afgan, to you there will always be a reason not to support this mission. And thats to bad. So i thank you for your support, the Afgan people thank you as well, because this is what it really all about is it not...I guess not.

normanchateau: Yes reconstruction efforts have missed target dates, but i'd like to add there is some what of a war going on, and reconstruction projects are large magnets for taliban activity, as confirm by the latest string of Canadian deaths most working on reconstruction projects. The vice and virture department as been "purposed" and is unlikely to be approved, the idea behind it was to fight coruption within the government, not to used as the taliban once used it...again your not reporting or covering both sides of the debate here norm...Funny this is the first site that poped up on goggle. Your jumping to conclusions here on something that has not even been put into practice or even knowing WHY it is being put foward in the government in the first place...your also assuming it will have the same structure and SOP's as the Taliban used...Again you complain about the corruption in thier government then stomp all over thier efforts to bring it under control...what is your solution norm... My Webpage

Mimas: Dude, pass me the pipe, you've had way to much...Thats the problem with most of those that do not see the Afgan mission for what it truely is. once you've debunked all of thier excuses for not supporting the mission they come back with comments like yours. Like we know nothing about Afgan, or it's always been a mess and it will always will be, British, russians, etc etc could not sort it out what makes you think we can... or we don't support the current corupt gov't.... These excuses make me laugh so let me ask you this, Did you know of this info before the mission started, i mean i as a soldier would have hoped you did some research before the Majority of Canadians decided to ship our soldiers over in the first place...One of the reasons i ask is i'm curious to how much thought was put into the decission to send us over there, even after the military had told most Canadians that this mission would be extremily tough and would cost lots of lives...but the majority of Canadians were beating thier war drums, and shouting from the roof tops "send them"... Everyone is entitled to thier opinons, hell everyone is entitled to change them i'm not arguing agan'st that , what pisses me off is those that change them on a whim or lack of proper research without regard to there consquences ...I would not be over here in Afgan today if it was not for the majority of Canadians, I would not be loading my comrads onto the back of a herc in metal caskets if it had not been for a majority of Canadians... Then for them to say oooppps we may have made a mistake we changed our minds and make up a bunch of lame excuses to cover thier asses...so they may feel good about making the mistake of sending us over here in the first place...That is what i have a problem with...to have someone telling the world that i'm wasting my time, that Afgan is unwinnable, then out of the corner of there mouths say they support the troops and knowing all of this from day one of the mission... If you fit into this catagory don't be surprised when some soldier boots you in the nuts and says thanks for your support..... We are making a difference here, and we will win this conflict in time, Why because that is what you've asked of us to do... and we will do that with or without your help... I'll sum up, Next time you start flapping your gums and spewing your pioson, do some research, you might even try asking a soldier over here or thats served here if he or she is wasting thier time...if they think that there sacrafice is worth it...ask them how many times they've been to Afgan, and why there is so many soldiers with repeat tours. and take a few minutes to think about why your opinon and thiers do not match...

normanchateau: Norm is there anything you like about the mission in afgan ? -So far we have establish that you do not like "thier" religion and it's influence on thier government. -You don't like the fact that some of thier government is made-up of criminal's. - you don't like the fact that a large portion of thier GDP is for the drug trade. - you don't agree with the fact that alot of Aganis make thier living ,thru the drug trade. - You believe that we should withdrawal all of our assistance for the above reasons, that we should punish "ALL" afganis for the actions of a few... What you've failed to do is come up with reasonable solutions, you are very good at picking apart the solutions now in place ,but have yet to come up with a better solution yourself. And your statements are leading me to believe that you as well as a majority of Canadians are not all that well informed about the problems in Afgan, or you are holding the Afganis people to the same high standard as most Canadians try to achieve...but not all do... I'm curious how much religion effects our governments decissions, or any decission that effects our lives.. I'd also be curious to how much the drug trade is worth here in Canada. I'd also be curious just what percentage of people in our government have been or still are involved in some sort of illigal behavior. And if we can answer negitively to any of those questions what gives us the right as Canadians to judge another nation. what gives us the moral high ground. In December 2001, the Government of Canada adopted Bill C‑24, An Act to Amend the Criminal Code (Organized Crime and Law Enforcement). Ushered in as “strong anti-gang legislation,” Bill C‑24 was intended to provide law enforcement officials with the tools necessary to combat organized criminal groups effectively and to help, among other things, to make inroads against drug trafficking and the various social problems that normally accompany it. The magnitude of those problems is indicated by the sums of money involved: illegal drug sales in Canada have reached an estimated $7 or $18 billion a year,(34) and their economic costs (including costs to the health care system, lost productivity, enforcement, property crimes committed by addicts, etc.) as much as $5 billion a year.(35)

normanchateau: The last time i check the leader of Afganistan was not a religious leader. Yes the Afganis government is influenced by religious leaders...But what about our government are you saying that the Abortion issued is not influenced by religion, how many other topics out thier have a religious flare to them such as gay marriage etc etc at what piont does your defination kick in, how much influence does religion have to have before it's declared a theocracy...

In this case the cross is not a christian referance, but rather an inter-national one indicating a grave marker, and is used in many different religions at the time.... During WWI most troops were buried with wooden crosses, which were later replaced with a white stone tablet, retanglar in shape with a slightly curved top after the first world war... Starting at the center of the acrhed top is a maple leaf, below that is your religious symblom ie a cross or star of david, the other religions i'm not sure of as i did not or have not seen any other religious markings...below that is the indiv info, ie date of death, his name ,date born etc etc, then at the bottom any family remarks, ie here lies our only son etc etc These tablets are and have been the standard since after WWI and have not changed since...and are still used today in the new war grave site in Ottawa.. Most common wealth grave sites are marked with a large cross with a sword on it...note i said most not all, and these are eurpean sites.. And everyone is right this is very stupid, but what i find disturbing is we allow it to happen, to appease whom, grade three teachers do we re-write history 100 or 200 years from now when "for sake of argument" the white christian Canadian is the minority...I'm not a racist by no means but if i'm going to sacrafice my life for Canada i want history to state exactly those events, as they happened warts and all, No one should have that power to re write history it should be taught as it actually happened so we may all learn from it.... But then again Canada is guilty of re-writing history for sometime, or conviently removing it, i'll use the latest attempt ,the Special service force as an example, or just not teaching it is another example...do we do our selfs any favours by removing it or just ignorning it....or are we doomed to repeat it...

I want to take a few minutes and repeat my thanks, not only to those that posted, but to all that braved the bad weather and those that gave 2 mins to say a pray and say thanks. It takes more than soldiers to make a nation, to conquor an enemy, it takes all of us... Although it is difficult to define just what it means to be Canadian or what values and morals we claim to have in common I will say that, it is all Canadians that make me proud to wear my uniform, it is the actions of all Canadians that Snaps me to attention and salute when i hear our National anthem. Thank you all for giving me the honour to wear my uniform for our great nation.

Figleaf. Because the are terrified of them, and there is not enough security available thru Nato, to watch over them 24 hours a day...The taliban know this...and use it very effectivily... Can i ask you have you ever been hungry, i don't mean you missed lunch, but rather not eaten in a week or so, and there is no work available, and to top all this off you have a family...Taliban offer 5 dollars a day to fight the west....you become desparite and start believing in the poison they are preaching....Were not talking thousands here but rather hundards out of millions thats not widely supported last time i checked... jdobbin: There are schools in Kanadar , and thier are kids going to school there. but that won't bring the support the president wants will it. again i stress that one should not believe everything one reads in the media...everyone has an agenda, in this case money and support.... here is something that did not make the nightly news, this Orfange has a school, repaired by Canadians... My Webpage

normanchateau You still have not listed any countries free from coruption, And nor do i see Canada on that list, so why do you have such high standards for Afgan when in fact our country is not living up to them...

Bradco: Yes there is a distinction in levels of morality, in peace time, when we are all craving out a living and watching the late night news...but part of warfare is destroying the will of the people as well, to drive them in forcing a peace...hence why the allieds bombed germany cities, to have thier people force thier governments in surrender or cease operations...they did this and we still do it today knowing full well it is again'st the conventions...Most nuclear wpns are targeted again'st civilian population centers...what military target could be big enough to cover a raduis of 300 kms....not many and yet 100 mega tons is standard nuk wpn....it was designed to kill populations not military targets...But the conventions state we can't target them be it for defense or offense.... It's during limited conflicts that the conventions come in to play and our own people force the adherance to them...IE to limit collateral damage when attacking etc etc...until the engagement grows and then the conventions are thrown out the window, and our people no longer care.... To sum it up, On the battle field it is kill or be killed, and conventions are either bent or dismissed, without much thought, there is no moral high ground just survival....and when you boil it all down, that is what a soldier will do survive.. All nations have broken the conventions, the carpet bombings before normandy landings moral or immoral, they knew those towns were full of peace loving frenchmen as well as germans....yet they were light up like a christmas tree...there are examples after examples...look at the destruction brought on by both sides...most towns and cities were flattened, look at any pictures and you'll see plenty of collatoral damage, not to excuse it, but it is part of war... It all comes down to what we as a nation are willing to except, and what we expect from our soldiers...

Figleaf: Bullshit ? the former Taliban regime is not gone, but rather hiding amounst the regular Afgan citizens, or in Pakistan where they can terrorize them at will. where the can spread thier pioson, and propganda at will. don't let them fool you they are thugs,murders,and scumbags that really do require a bullet...Have no mercy or shed no tears for them as they would have none for you.... Sound cold, i've seen the results of taliban crimes first hand, and they have made me sick to think man is capable of such things...and i've been in combat before...and thought i'd seen it all...the cutting off of a 6 year olds hands, ripping a man in two with a truck, the running of a pike thru a mans beaten body, and standing it up in front of a towns entrance and allowing him to bleed out, ...sounds like the 16th century...but here it is everyday... that being said they are recruiting any Muslim from any where to help them in thier holy war....Money talks in this country and so does religion, combine both and they have no problem with recruiting young men to do there bidding...These young men believe in thier cause and have become Taliban and everything they stand for...They want to control the Afgan people, in every aspect of thier lives... So when you ask who is a taliban, it is anyone who picks up a wpn to defend the taliban way of life, by it for money or for religion...they brainwash these young men into fighting and dying. SO please stop crying for these guys, a majority of the Afgan people do not support these people willingly... And Canada has signed on to help plant these guys because we were asked to by the Afgan people. normanchateau: If this is your only reason for not supporting this mission, you need another excuse...Name me one government that is not had corruption...any country....that is free from curruption...As for the way they run it , we were not asked to start a "western style government" in afgan but one the afgan people wanted, that would still allow them choices...We in the west need to come to grip with the idea that our form of government is not the best form, what may work for us will not work for everyone... cybercoma: Where did you get this from, Some economics prof been pumping this crap out, have you seen the price tag for any of these missions, compare the cost it's impact is on our GDP, we've spent only 2.5 bil in the last 6 years...how is that keeping our enconomy floating...that would not even keep PEI floating... And by your logic the US should be swimming in cash, but wait a minute are they not running a major deficit....and that is how we keep the economy floating... I'd be interested in seeing how you came to this conclusion perhaps read a few of the links you got your info from...

Yes gerry i will fall on my sword if that is what it will take i appoligise for the whole post and if i could take it all back i would, it was written with to much emotion..

Geoffrey: Geoffrey make a good piont here "nothing" distinguishes us just the methods employed to kill. The east and the west are equally guilty of breaking the convention or planning to break the convention in future conflicts. Proving the convention is only a guide, and then only used by the victor to punish someone for the conflict.... I'll explain, Geneva convention states that it is forbiden to purposily target civilians, but if you were to ask any nation with nuclear wpns what thier targets were, they would be population centers...i mean what military target takes a 100 megaton nuclear device to destroy it. we're talking a blast raduis of 300 kms,or more...and fully employ them knowing that the radation hazards will cover thousands of km and effect millions...This wpn alone breaks most of the conventions, and yet all sides have them and are willing to use them...moral right or wrong.... There are dozens of wpns platforms that fall into the same catagory... My piont is nothing in war is morally right, no side has the moral high ground...dead is still dead, just how it came about is really the question...be it shot, or slowly beheaded, or fed to the lions... So the conventions really are not to govern nations conduct as per say, but rather the avg soldiers conduct, not only to keep some sanity to warfare, but to keep it from turning into total war, where thier are no rules... Because man, and i mean both genders are capable of some very sick shit....and yes i'm talking about all of us not just soldiers, but all of us....and it does not take training to cross over the edge just alittle exposure or tramatic event and once you've crossed that line it's very hard to come back....to what we consider normal behavior...

gerryhatrick : Your right Gerry, i already said i appoligize for my poor judgement in choosing the title..

Blackdog: I don't see us making any promises we can't keep. This is not just a military mission as per say, but what they call full spectrum operations, one in which we are involved in combat operations, stability operations and humanitarian assistance, all at the same time sometimes in the same town or city...and we are making advances in all three areas but i want to stress it is not just the Canadian military here, we have diplomats, RCMP, and other government organizations here all working hard at making this work... Your right, but it's a bad apple we want to throw out, while we are here. Al Qaeda operations may have been curtailed, but they are still alive and still a problem in Afgan...despite what the press puts out there we are still engaging Al Qaeda members... We do have a bench mark, it's to bring peace and stability to thier country and to assist them in the rebuilding process. how long that will take i have no idea, how long were we in Cyprus, bosina, more than 10 years minimum... Let me ask you the same question, how much is your freedom and your rights worth to you...and how much would you allow your government to spend on keeping them....How much of our current surplus would you allow our government to grant Afgan this gift... Again we are asking what does afgan have to offer in return...does there have to be a return before we decide to take action...Dafar has what to offer Canada, Rwanda, next to nothing should we cross them off the list of future missions... A single terrorist attack that has cost the lives of over 30 Canadian civilians, a single attack that we have spent bils into increasing our security...and how has it effected our personal lifes, at the borders, airports, ports etc etc... Our security is so lack ,,,still after the bils...that anyone with some planning and organization could be a threat to us...I mean had all those attacks suceeded they could have crippled the US econemy, defense, and our country is tied to thiers in every aspect....what could they have done with 20 airplanes... Ok i'll take a step back, Right now if all the facts pionted to Afgan being a waste of time, resources and lifes, i'd be the first to be beating that drum, get me out of here...but our nation has decided it's size of it's military and how much we are going to spend on aid and right now we can only do one mission at a time....it makes sense to stay here finish this job and get it right the first time. instead of hopping around the world trying to put out spot fires...let the americans do that, besides we don't have the resources or should i say the military because we have lots of resources we just squander them.... I had to chuckle about the values remark because it's true. But i'd like to think that Canadians have alot of good values worth contributing to other nations. Is it our job to do so NO, but i do think we have some responsiabilty as one of the worlds leading nations to ensure a better future not only for our next generation but to all future generations. I agree it's not the best way, but it is the way of the future...alot of relief agencies refuse to go into the places we go into...trust me if i had a choice i would not travel there either....is it worth it, every trip ... and we will get better at it...because we have to...

Genva convention was not written or concieved to give one side an advantage over another. It was written for the most part to govern the conduct of warfare and reduce the needless deaths of inocent people. It is very black and white, their are no grey areas in it. Mind you, to fully understand it , it needs to be explained by a lawyer that specializes in this area. but it does cover every subject including the Terrorist clauses. breaking "any" of the conventions is punishable by a war crimes tribulal, that being said rarely do any of the victors get punished...For example did any of the allied leaders get punished for the mass fire bombings again'st dresden etc etc...My piont here is this the conventions are not fairly applied across the board. And i'd like to add this, a nation at war has to decide what actions it can live with in order to win...I say win because one does not go to war to lose...OK maybe france Joking, I say this because when it's all over we are the ones that have to live with our actions, we can re write history, we can change history, but we can not undo our actions.... As for the example of the women and the Isrealis soldier , this is not a good example at all and many arguements could made for both sides Again'st or for the conventions...it is clear that the soldier here took the path he believed was right...although easy for all of us to sit here and pick those actions apart, he did not have the same time nor facts we do...he had but split seconds before he acted...

FTA Lawyer: Your right, and i showed poor judgement in my chioce of topic titles. And for that i appoligise. I can not explian why it happens , it just does, as for the most part effects the younger crowds, 17 -25 years old, and it effects most military towns...although not as much in those towns that have been to Afgan , for example Edmonton, Petawawa, these towns have suffered military deaths and the towns for the most part are very pro military...and very friendly towards all military... But other towns are not so friendly, to the piont were Military members are advise where not to go, and to travel in groups.

FTA Lawyer: Yes that is exactly what i'm suggesting. these bars are extremily close to the navy dockyard and are very familar with our own Navy guys, i mean come on you can't tell me a military guy is not easy to pick out of a crowd. and when your familar with thier patterns it's all that more easily done. It's funny that passers by chose in seconds which side they were on, how many of those that were walking by or as the article suggests driving by actually jumped out and gave assistance to those military personal...in fact the article suggests none, that those Navy guys quickly were out numbered and quickly overpowered... This is a problem with most military bases not just Halifax...it is stressed that military guys travel downtown in groups while attending drinking establishments...it's not because we need to fend off all the hugs and kisses...although some women do like a man in uniform.... I guess we will have to wait to hear from the defendants on thier motives, and perhaps i did jump the gun on the military option...but i doubt it....this is not the first time this has happened and will diffently not be the last..And it still does not excuse the act being cowardly

Black dog: Your piont is taken, i'm sure any little girl from numerous other nations could have ripped my heart out and had as much impact as this one had. But one can not always remain neutral as one would like...And your right but our current military and Canadian policitcal will limits us as a nation to what we respond to...And 9/11 pushed us to respond to Afgan, and we are here now, so why not stay and finish the job or stay until we know without a doubt that the mission can not be completed. So we are not second guessing down the road if we did the right thing. I don't agree, if we are to use our world postion to punish those for crimes again'st our nation, we should also use that responsiablity to atleast try and fix the problem...I mean we were all willing to jump on the band wagon and destroy the government that help al Quida thrive...why not use that same power to atleast try and ensure it does not happen again..no since throwing out the whole basket of fruit because of a few rotten pieces.. Yes but todays warfare is growing, generals are now seeing that to have peace, as we know it, one has to spend more on humanitarian projects than the actual warfare portion...Not to bring Iraq into this, but had they spent as much time and money on rebuilding Iraq as they did destroying it I'm convinced they would not be such as mess as there is today. And we as a nation have to see that as well that these missions are multi bil dollar investments, and should not be taken lightly, but the price tag should not deter us from our responsiablities as one of the leading nations in the west. Life itself is not a safe bet, nothing is garenteed,we as a nation have liked the long shots... people still buy lotto tickets, hoping to strike it rich. We accomplish nothing in the world by watching it go by, atleast here and now we are doing something we've all talked about, projecting Canadian values and morals ...doing something good atleast i hope it will turn out that way...but if not atleast we as a nation can say we tried...As for the ingredients i see them every day, i see the kids running screaming thier heads off waving as we drive by...i see them as the ingredients to a lasting peace...i see them as Afgans future... It's a very good question, Most of those afganis i've spoken to just want peace, to be able to raise there kids free from war, to feed and provide for them.... any father would tell you that....would they settle for the same taliban rule if it meant peace...for most i would say unlikely at this time but unless NATO makes some real progress within a few years i would say yes, they they would... I agree, and polls confirm this. The avg Canadian is quite happy with donating a few dollars to feed the worlds children and calling it a day. that does not make it right just shows us that perhaps we don't always live up to our morals and values we proclaim we have... Forgive me if i screw up this quote but someone said men and nations are not only judged by words but by thier deeds and actions...I'm still trying to figure the true meaning out myself but i'll try here... I not a overly religious man, all though i have found myself making a few promises to god over here latetly...but i do believe we all are judged in some way be it by our peers, friends, family, our nation whom ever, which is important to me and my believes and i think my experiance over here has made me a better person, made me see things in a different light, nothing that gives me any zen powers or greater insight to the worlds problems but just seeing them in a different light...In afgan see hope, i see good people who want what we all want peace...and to achieve that they have asked for our help...unfortunatly the badmen don't want to give them that , they don't want to release control. Is there another way to achieve peace without first driving out those that want to control...

Thank you, and i will share this with as many of my comrads as i can. But i ask of you to say a pray for those who are no longer with us on NOV 11. As this will be the day that we will need your help the most..

Black Dog: Black dog, The man of action, gentleman of leisure..i've been wondering when you were going to wiegh in on this topic. And i'm glad you did. For me it was a 11 year old girl, whom had both hands cut off by the taliban for the crime of going to school, that and hundrds of conversations with afganis. To be truthful never gave them a second thought, in fact had to go to the world map to even find out where Afgan was.. But that raises this question, once we destroyed the Al Quada and Taliban government were we just to leave or did we have the responsiablity to rebuild not only the government but infra structure that has been destroyed or was non existant. Yes, Afgan has a long history we all know that, But then again by the same logic do we use history to judge nations, Do we lock down France, Britain, Spain because of thier historical conquests...do we pour in more troops into Germany because of thier historical past...History is a good gage, but not the end all, there is nothing in history that says Afgan will never be a nation able to stand on it's own...unless you know something i don't. Afgan does not need to become a democracy as we know it, for this mission to be declared sucessful, what it needs to become is a government that can govern it's own people be it by a combination of religous/ elected government officals or other forms of government. Life for many Afganis has already changed for the better, and has changed dramically for the good. And we are just starting the rebuilding process... How could a people able to to run thier own country not be better for us...I know your not advocating leaving them in the dark ages for our bennifit. 9/11 is the main reason for the Afgan mission, but then again thru other discussions we've had i do believe that Canada could take a more active role in alot of areas in the world. And yes, Afgan is one of those areas..But Canadians barely have the stomach for this mission, they lack the patients to get the job done correctly, they lack the will to use force...But then again i see the world thru differnet lenses from a military view.