Army Guy

myata: Just how can "WE" be doing anything together...when the Majority of Canadians do not support this war, or any efforts that go along with it. Nor do they see any rush to take any action, be it withdrawal, or support the mission. No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything. Now we need another debate on whether we are winning or not....We already know we ( soldiers)are winning and doing our part....it is on the home front that YOU are lossing and NOT doing your part.... This is confusing was'nt the time to debate whether we should go or fight or hand out teddy bears before we told the troops "start your engines", and they loaded aircraft and ships. or is this a typical Canadian thing to do...act now debate later,... Actually the debates did happen in fact serveral debates have happened since our troops have arrived in Afgan. and you want more, fair enough lets debate it in true Canadian fashion...i mean there has been one form of debate about this topic since our arrival over 6 years ago...I'm just curious has all this debate come to any form of concenous, anything at all. So while the left has thier panties in a knot about the mission being extended really by the time the debate even decides something, 2011 will already come and gone.... more soldiers will have died and the only thing your debate will have decided is where they can piont the fingers at to shove all the blame... It is the Soldiers that are stuck in the middle...It is the soldiers that are frustrated and srceaming ...just decide something please....support the mission so we can win this thing and go home....or pull us back home...that is what YOU are failing to understand... But hey i know there has to be a debate first....

Here is a few other reports, i put them out there not to disprove your sources but rather to show just how easy one could get a report these days. Macleans US General Gen Hillier UK GEN CSIS We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight for "your" hearts and minds without them this War is lost, regardless of how well our troops do on the battle field. Why is this frustrating, Because the soldiers are putting everything they have into this mission including thier lives...only to be lossing this whole thing at home...we are not blaming anyone...just want you to make up your damn minds....either support us and the mission...or demand our return,...either way the People of Canada need to decide and take action...one way or the other....until then we will continue to do the job you asked us to do with 150 % of our efforts...

No, imaginations are not required, The taliban are not a bunch of Red Necks from northern ont, not even close, They make these good old home boys look like girls from the church choir. Chear leaders for the jump rope team....Comparing them to the Hell's angels was the closest politically correct comparison i've read so far....but even this does not go far enough. These guys have very good military training, most are seasoned combat vets, they are fantical in what ever they do, Thier training , thier killing , thier approach to this whole war...How many hell's angels would rather die fighting than be captured. How many Hells angels would slowly cut a man's head off with a dull knife, then mount the head on a pike to act as a warning to others. How many would cut a little girls hands off with an axe, just for going to school, then sit down and have a good laugh and joke about how hard she screamed.........There are thousands of examples that prove they are "SCUMBAGS" barly worth the bullet to send them to Allah.... It's time we stopped thinking of the Taliban as backwards, confused, poor , and to borrow a phrase from argus "Brown people"....And instead looking at them as they should be... thru a rifle scope...These scumbags, will and have committed acts that would make a seasoned Nazi vet puke. All in the name to hold on to what the once had, total power of the people. They will not stop until they are eliminated or achieve that goal. But we knew that before going over there, before our troops got off the planes....we knew that when the Majority of Canadians stood behind this mission. What you have read is one report, Now your calling for us to pull pole , pack up your tents we are going home....Senlis says we can't win this damn thing, and we take this as gosple because they have a office in Afgan.... because they are military experts in this type of operations, because they have talked with WHO ? the Taliban, the local people, the soldiers WHO ?...Because they just know, it's freaky... Give me a break...in fact give us all a break. It is the winter offensive and it's winding down, Yes NATO has taken casualities as it does every winter, and every spring...But the Taliban are lossing more people than NATO , or the AFGAN army or police are....How that translates into winning i don't know...

I don't think you can boil it down to something that simple, i think there is a progression to all of it...I don't think it started off that way, Hilter and his merry band of wingnuts sold thier Idealogy to the masses because most of them believed and lived by it. But to say it was all about power , i don't think so " just my opinion".

To be honest, there was some excitment within the military about getting involved in Iraq, taking on a larger role than we played in Gulf war I, it is after all what the military trains for, every soldier wants to test thier training to prove thier abilities...i should also piont out that these are soldiers that have not seen combat or the effects of war for the best part of thier carears, I don't think that same attitude is present today. With most troops having done atleast 2 rotations in Afgan. It should also be mentioned that Gen Hillier was not in charge of the military at the time, in fact he himself served in Afgan as the comander of Canadian forces troops there. I think the decision to go into Afgan was chosen as the lesser of to evils, we had to live up to our part of the NATO alliance and this was Canada's choice. The Military actually tried to persaude our government that our military forces could not do both assigned missions, That we were not suited nor equiped for the Afgan mission. We were still heavily involved with Bosina. The liberals decided to bring Canada's commitment in Bosina to a close and to Launch a new miision into Afgan, to appease our neibours and fulfill our commitments to the Alliance. This is because the enemy has adopted thier tactics so the produce the best results, No longer capable of conducting large one on one operations, for the most part have shifted thier tactics to fight NATO on the Home front, the death of a single Nato soldier has a much larger impact on the people , change thier minds and they will pull out....and poof a victory can be declared. They are winning on this front...despite lossing on the battle field. As for where are they getting all the explosives, Afgan is littered with them, the russians had left mountains and mountains of them scatter across the country.. add to this involvment by other Muslim countries providing the elctronic means and you have the makings of an IED...which can be as small as a cigar to as large as serval tonnes. As for getting a mine proof veh there is none, the bigger the veh the bigger the explosive devise. detection is the key, for better detection we need more troops...something that nobody is ready for in the near future. Getting of the roads is proably the best answer, getting big honkin helos will save dozens of lives, but they cost money something the tax payers don't want to spend.

Every operation that Canada decides to take to sends it's troops must be well thought out. it's gains must out wiegh the costs....Every operation does and will end with dead soldiers going home. There are very few exceptions to this rule. Every War has reasons that are questionable, if you look hard enough you could find them for every conflict we've been involved with. The media and government has painted most Wars as some romantic adventure that turns young boys into men, having a good War or a bad war is simply a myth...War is none of the above, it grinds and destroys everything it touchs into dust. Lets just say for a second your right, it's all about a oil pipe line...one that could not even begin construction until the taliban are completely destroyed...it represents a huge target and would require thousands of troops just to guard...a multi billion dollar adventure, not just a few bil, but hundrds of billions (already spent) in this war already... So my question to you is this what profit do you think the owner of this pipe line is going to make...to make this a feesiable option... not only that is this investment could be destroyed or severily damaged by one explosive device...alot of money to ride on a piece of pipe. That is not how an Alliance works.

Jennie: Would it not be fair to say that both are fairly inter twined, after all it is our soldiers that are the tools that our government is using to accomplish it's aims on this mission. And when one claims that the aims are not being met one assumes that the tool is faulty or not doing the job correctly. Which as a soldier i take that to heart, one because i am or have been involved in that process...two i've invested alot of blood sweat and tears into this mission, so i'm attached to it. I don't think i've begudge the citizens right to question if the right decisions are being made. But you'd have to admit the real time for debate was at the start of the mission, before our nation committed it's troops to combat. What message are you sending your very own troops when there is constant debate over the same topic over and over again....it that signs of good leadership...Not from where i'm standing...as a soldier leadership means everything...being indecisive is not good leadership. Try putting yourself in a young soldiers boots for a second, His government decides to ship him overseas to a unknown combat zone, not only has his government approved but at the time so has the majority of Canadians....he spends the next 6 months leaping from operation to operation, doing what he has been sent thier to do....only to find out on the way home that Canadians have changed thier minds...they don't want to be there...It's to late...the troops are on the ground, many have paid the price already...and many more will continue to die until our government pulls them back or the tax payer makes it a priority of thier own... Yes many have died because this mission was what Canadians and our government wanted...there is no going back...today a majority of Canadians do not approve of the mission, and no disrespect intended, but the soldiers don't give a rats ass...It is thier mission now, and they will fight to stay or until it is completed. Not because they love combat or the rush that comes with it, but because they have a mission that they can see results in that they have taken to this mission to heart....unlike the many before it. So when you claim it is your responsabilty as a citizen to look after our soldiers best interest , in the soldiers eyes you have failed and failed miserably. Yes we all know you support us, wear the red shirts on fridays , and welcome us home like hero's. But you have failed to be heard by your government, in all matters...and making this pill even harder to swallow is the fact that some university professor, and some peace group from BC, which are fewer in numbers can cause such a media stir that they are not only heard by our government but is forcing them to take action...

Thank you again. There are many vets on this board, more than i've seen in most, and we hold a deep respect for each other.

Oleg, it's was never my intention to convert you, OK maybe educate you alittle....the one thing i cherish about our country is we can all have different opinions and still live together without tearing out each others throats... One can not debate a topic if we are all of the same mind and opinion... .I would'nt go that far, for war is full of murphies law, and murphy makes it quite clear there is never control when you need it or want it.. But i will go on record as saying it is a very different war from Iraq. Thank you. As for the our government officials , i don't think your alone in that assetment, nor would i waste a breath in thier defense. with exception of one, Mr Glyn Berry foreign affairs officer, killed doing his duty in a combat zone. Oleg your opinions are yours, it was not my intention to change them, but rather educate those that have been swayed by false facts. you have any questions don't hesitate to ask.

And yet you've taken upon yourself without this clear and concise reasoning to cement your own opinon. When this has been explained thousands of times. It's not that you don't know why Afganistan, but rather you don't agree with it. Which is fine everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, but here you are clearly throwing dirt on those that do not share your vision. Yes the Afgan people have defeated or rather outlived thier opponets will to concour thier nation. But i don't recall them asking the British or Russians for thier assistance do you...Both of these nations had other plans for Afgan i'm sure they did not include building a nation for Afgan's. ?Why is it a bizarre statement, because you find it hard to believe that these young soldiers have a different value system than you, or that they actually believe in what they are doing.... You are being served, every Canadian is being served, this mission was approved by our government and at the time the Majority of Canadians...want someone to piont the finger at , then blame them ...soldiers don't get to chose where and whom they shall fight.... The Nation of Afgan has asked for our assistance, no more no less...and we are providing that...and guess what there is no profit in it for Canada no, oil contracts, no opuim deals, no adding another province...just our nation aiding another, trying to give alittle of what we take for granted everyday to another people have a planet away... Yes they may speak of it at tea parties, or at the opra, but like i've said before they don't have the balls to take that action... Perhaps you can give us one example in the last 30 years of our countries elite plotting and dabling in anything resembling warfare....So if it is adventurism then it's a new thing.... Just how much influence would they have and why would they even bother with our military, shit most third world nations have more of a military force than ours, and they have more than tin soldiers to play with...As for respect, i'd say about as much as you've shown in the last few posts. Sorry never seen the sun, i was assuming they were showing a picture of all our dead for the begining of the mission. But take a look at this site and tell me there are no imigrants in thier. Our fallen Lets not forget about Cpl Anthony Graham born in Jamica, took part in the olympics in Barcelona... died while serving his country. srcoll down the list of names and guess which ones are or came from immigrant families... Yes we as Canadians have not taken part in any offensive actions....well there was that thing when we burned the white house....but we could blame the british on that....Why because we as Canadians can't stand anything to do with Offensive actions....we sit in our perfect little worlds and critize those that would even dare bring up the topic....For we are Canadians and we like pionting... it's what we are good at....did i mention bashing americans another hobby of ours ... And yet as the peacekeeping myth has been busted, so must this myth that we as Canadians are not just finger pionters but we are capable of taking action or providing assistance when we are asked. You can call it what ever you like, adventurism, doing what is right.... but as a soldier that has completed 2 tours in Afgan i request that you refrain from insulting any of my comrads, dead or alive....

I think you already know the answer to that question, or you've already cemented your opinion on the entire topic. I'm hoping that your as opened minded as you say you are, and not traditionally close minded as say artists or musicians in regards to this topic. Alot of theories here, Canadian soldiers are real soldiers, and don't need to taste blood to confirm that. The theory of Candian bankers actaully having the balls to even think of such adventures makes me laugh, they may be alot of things but it all boils down to they are Canadians after all, not worried about thier inferiorty complex but thier bottom dollar. One that this war is not very well suited. Don't make it sound like these young men were not fully aware of what they signed on for. They did after all volunteer knowing the possiable outcomes. and also knowing that it is not popular in thier own country. A picture is worth a thousand words, but i think you've gotten the wrong message from suns tribute. Perhaps you should be looking at the nominal roles of soldiers that have served in tours in Afgan and you'd be surprised that the immigrant population are signing up and serving thier new country. Or perhaps you should look at those young faces just once more just to confirm that white Christian beef eating country boys are not the only ones that believe in what our nation is doing in Afgan. That perhaps regardless of the motives of our elite, bankers, or government they are willing to risk thier lives for a greater good. It may not be the War to end all wars part II , but it is War all the same, and although we have not stormed any beaches we are never the less caught in a life and death struggle fighting a foe that only lifes ambition is to kill all those not of the same ilk, or of the same mind. And although you may not see any heroism in getting blown apart by some road side device, you should have taken that a step further and explained to your readers that these men and women do this everyday without fail, they continue to do it after linning the tarmac dozens of times to say thier final farewells to comrads that have died in the same manner as you discribe. and yet every day they climb aboard thier machines and carry out a job that needs to be done....A job made that much harder because our polictions and regular Canadians like you and me lacked the forsight to provide them with the tools to make it safer. " that cost money eh"...And while that may sound stupid to you it sounds pretty heroic to me. Well i'm glad we did not disappiont you, you were'nt really ecpecting anyother results were you....you've manged to boil the whole mission down to one objective....drugs.... You've accomplished something that all those high priced suits have failed do to in just one post. But really do you think it would be that easy, or is it that you don't fully understand what is going on in the country. Perhaps your right perhaps all of us christian beef eating rednecks from ontario were looking for something to do.

Well said Wilber, Most Atheletes are sponsored by the corporate world, They are after all representing Canada and our flag why not invest in thier future. We as tax payers have invested in alot worse. how much of our tax dollars have just our politions wasted....this is not about just money but selling our nation, our pride, who we are as Canadians to the world. Or are we just a bunch of cheap bastards.

Welcome to the board, I'm curious as i might be one of those that are lacking depth....what do you base your comment of "what a war really is" do you have experiance as a military member, dable in history, or taken your comment out of the dictionary. Is that what makes a Hero, Squaring off with an enemy, going toe to toe, much like Sgt Rock of yester year....hand grenades and machine guns...Canadian troops have been involved with hundards of such operations, but i guess you've forgotten to mention that fact.... What you do mention is those sacrifical lambs, and comparing thier lives and contributions to that of racoons i believe...these men and women have a job to do, one that is vital to the mission. the resupply of FOB's and the troops in the field. these people get up every morning of everyday, get into thier vehs and drive hundrds of klicks to drop off beans and bullets, everything needed to keep the mission going, and they do so knowing exactly what lays ahead of them, and all the dangers that entails...they do so knowing that they could be the next ones that make that long walk down the ramp and being loaded into the back of a herc. No they are hero's every one of them. atleast to me, as i have been one of those poor grunts waiting for the next conoy to come in. They do this job without complaint, of temperture, often well above 60 celcuis inside a veh, road conditions often there are no roads, operating old and beaten up equipment, and attending atleast 10 to 20 Ramp cermonies " comrads lost to enemy action"...during thier stay in Afgan ... they do all of that waiting patiently for those big honken helicopters to arrive so we won't have to travel the roads anymore...they do all that and more hoping that Canadians back home will atleast see fit to presure the government into purchasing more equipment that will allow more of them to come home....They do so praying that one day the Canadian people will see this mission as they do...as a noble act, a cause that is worth the price they may have to pay....assisting another nation to come out of the ashes.

Well when you boil them all down, all of them where to stop aggresion from an unfriendly niebour. As for thier sucess , that would depend on how you describe sucess and what price your willing to pay for it. would life be better under germanys rule, then later Nazi rule...or perhaps living under north Korea's dictatorship...or under Sadam's rule... Do we turn a blind eye every time someone wants to expand thier holdings via the use of arms...

I'm confused did you not say: To which i replied: These wars were not ours, Canada in no way was threatened in any way. And yet each one of them Canada was involved because we as a nation decided it was the right thing to do at the time.....and each were sucessful in thier own rights. but in your quote you state that it never works....where in fact history has proven you wrong. :Last time i checked the current Afgan government was freely elected, by the people of Afgan, not by the US or NATO... They did ask, and we are responding with force.....

Much like the boar war, WWI ,WWII, or korea, gulf wars. Or would you agree that sometimes a nation has to stand up for what it believes in, protects what it considers important, and could we not extend that to say "stand up for others that are also in need" and can not defend themselfs.

That armour they talk about is very minium, armour has been sacraficed for the wieght of the sensors and guns.......on top of that these would be gun ships only, would not be able to extract any wounded... what is needed is a heavy helo that can do both, or two separate helos one attack helo, and one medivac helo...

Fortunata: I'm sorry if i came across alittle blunt, and it is my intention to educate as much as possiable. Not to make any excuses but i did try and explain to myata serveral times why things are moving slowly for Afganis people. I have no problems with answering questions, but if one is going to make accusations or remarks one should have done alittle research before hand. Afgan is not a new topic, and there is a mountain of info available, As far as "not knowing" all one has to do is goggle it, to get the basics you don't have to go there, or been there , just type... As far as the deaf ears part, not only i'm i giving my opinion , but a general concenus of how most soldiers I've talked to feel about things ongoing in Canada. Yes our government has failed in promoting this mission, but it is the tax payer whom also has to share in that burdun. By demanding more, after all they are the voice of Canada, and when they speak loud enough the government will listen... Funney you should ask that question, but how is it that a professor from Ottawa, and a peace group from BC manged to get so much media attention , and government attention, into alligations nothing factually, just alliagations....and yet it is factual infomation that having Helos in Afgan would save dozens of lives, it is factual info that having more troops on the ground would make it safer for all involved, the list is endless...and our voices go unheard, or so it seems to us on the ground.... Now put yourselfs in those soldiers boots. would you think that your suggestions, complaints, your presentations were being listened to, or falling on deaf ears... Every soldier is well aware that the Avg Canadian respects us, and the job we are doing. And is thankful for that support. But there is more that is required. Such as using the power of thier voice to ensure we have the right equipment, the right amount of people, and the right amount of training to accomplish the job you assign us.. It seems to us on the ground that our priorities are a little mixed up at times, when the lives of our enemies come before ours, is that the message we want to send our troops.. As for torture ,Our country has already said where it stands and how our troops are to act in accordance with the laws and conventions. Our countries record on this matter stands for itself, our soldiers are well trained in this matter, and our conduct is outstanding when handling POW's... it has been alittle weak in tracking POW's handing over to other nations. and that has been addressed serveral times..But as a soldier one would hope that our needs and concerns would be addressed first before making sure that our enemies are. Soldiers are and have told visting polictions of thier weakness in regards to selling this mission. but we are of few vioces, where the people at home are many, this is where the public could do more. speak with one voice...it seemed to work for our professor....But we have yet to see that happen... Yes they are concerned, but not concerned enough to take action, that is my piont...

And everyone of those ideas of right and wrong are being followed by the soldiers on the ground. All we "might" and i say that again "might" be guilty is keeping track of each and every POW we've captured and that was handed over. Has anyone seen hard evidance that this is even the case, not just accuasations, but hard evidance...and yet we as a nation are taking stop gap measures in our highest court....over accuasations...and over a fine detail like tracking POW's in someone elses care and control... my entire piont was "why" are we as a nation pressing this issue, what is the agenda of the professor and BC peace group... And why is it so hard to swallow, over 8 of my comrads in arms have died while riding in Iltis jeeps, before someone took action, how many lifes could have been saved with tanks on the ground, our own air support , our own helo's the list goes on...and our military has been bitching about these problems for years.....One professor with a muslim back ground and "poof" we have action....Maybe we should be paying his salary, to work as a lobbist for us. weaponeer: welcome home. and good luck in re adjusting...

look at the polling numbers, they are higher than we have here in Canada, add to the fact that many walked more than 50 kms to get to the polls and i think you'll have your answer. What you forgot to mention that the first two invaded with the intention of building another extention of thier empire. yes, we did invade and we were going to leave, it was the Afganis government that asked us to remain behind, and assist... You make it sound like NATO is running the whole show , that the Afganis people are doing nothing just sitting back and sucking everything in....thats not true....but then again you discount what it is like to live over there. Ever been hungry i mean really hungry ,not eaten for 4 or 5 days....You have a family ? ever seen them hungry ? do you think that would rip you apart from the inside...it is a major effort just to get water everyday, not to bath in but to drink..stop thinking like a western person, who has running water, can flush a tiolet, wipe there ass with paper, and not dirt...these are but a few of the every day struggles that face the Afgan people...and top of all that they mange to enlist in the police force and army and serve thier country...they mange huge construction projects, build new roads and markets, etc etc If Canada was to leave now, it would put additional stress on those contries left behind, it would also slow progress down that much more...would the taliban gain control not a chance If NATO and all our support was to pull out, then i think that the present day government would not be long in power, it is very debateable on whom would take over, i don't think the taliban would regain power, but there would be a larger taliban presence than there is now... The Afgan people want peace, first and foremost, then they want jobs so they can feed thier families...anyone that can promise that and deliver would get the support of the people... NO, most western countries don't want to get involved, to much time and effort, and then thiers the sacrafice of thier soldiers...Afgan does not have anything to offer...much like Dafur....see any western nations beating down thier door to help...So do not base the lack of people willing to help a true evaluation of the situation because it is not.... We in the west don't do much unless there is a pay off...what is the pay off for Canada in Afgan... That statement gave me a warm a fuzzy feeling as a soldier, in other words our government committed our troops to whatever and Canadians just showed up to wave good bye...then they started asking questions....why, how long , etc etc... mean while in whoville our troops are involved in combat ops fighting and dying, and Canadians don't know why...Holly ball of shit batman... I'm glad that the citizens of this country are so concerned over my welfare... if thats the case it's been 6 years when were you guys going to demand something be done...2011... And today we are concerned with what getting an answer to this question or demanding that Taliban POW's are treated properly...I'm confused...where do our nations soldiers fit into this equation...or do we ?

We as a nation have taken extreme measures to ensure that these POW's have been handled with kid gloves while in our care and control...where we have failed is ensuring that once these POW's are handed over to the US or Afgan authorities that we check to ensure they are held as per the genva convention....no torture, being feed and housed correctly, thier kids get off to collage etc etc... We have made it clear as a nation that we do not condone torture, in fact we have stopped sending POW's to US prisons for just this fact. And in doing so we have stated that we do not trust you. Even after the US investagated the matter and made changes to the way it handles POW's...Now we send our POW's to Afgan prisons not because they are better in thier treatment, but because Canadians just did not want the big bad US to get them... So now this group cliams they have proof that prisoners are being tortured...have we seen this proof, can we honestly sit down and piont the finger at the Afganis government and shout you have failed ,you lied to us, you promised that these scumbags would be handled like the family jewels... Or are they claiming they have talked to these POW's, they have heard stories and they are screaming "hell yes we've been tortured"...see the marks...get me out of here...I wonder what else they would say. I'm inocent, i've commited no crimes, i was framed...who's word are we going to believe there's "you know the ones that have vowed to die in battle while killing infidels".. or the government officals who have these scumbags locked up. Has the red cross verified these reports, that is part of thier job.... Why am i so sceptable, because i've seen how we treat these scumbags, how they are pampered, feed and clothed, every whim looked after...I've also seen how the Afganis police and army treats them, yes they are rough, but they are not tortured...but i can't talked for all of them all of the time... I've also seen how the media and people of Canada feed off these kind of stories, much like the same professor making alligations that Canadian soldiers were mistreating POW's...how long did it take for the people to scream at the top of thier lungs..."them cruel bunch of bastards" we want an investagation...someone get out the rope...And yet it proved to be false...and all we heard in Afgan from the people was "OH really" like they were disappionted , put the rope away boys....disappionted the professor decided to go another angle...Can't have them muslim boys locked up by infidels being mistreated can we....How many soldiers lifes, and long did it take for the ilitis jeep to get replaced in afgan...how long did it take to get tanks over there...was there the same reaction by the people no there was not... And while it is with every good intention that the people back home can say with confidance we conducted a clean war, adhere to all the conventions. it is not you on the recieveing end of the taliban and the happy band of merry terrorists , it is not you that lives with those images burnt into to many brain cells, and it's not me or you that has to live under constant threat of death by these scumbags...it's the Afganis people, thier the ones that have there families draged out in the middle of the night, beheaded, heads placed on pikes and placed in the center of town, as a reminder...or slowly skinned alive only to die in the cool night air...Yes it is them that lives with that...and as far as i'm concerned they want to torture a few of these scumbags "giver"...does that make me a bad man.... Does that mean that all our efforts in Afgan are wasted ... Anyone that thinks that morality or values play a major role in combat is mistaken. War is anything but moral or full of values...Yes it is nice to read in our history books that we were the nice guys but those that were there know better.

My question is what is the entire piont here, Is the question about what actually happens to detainess really the agenda here, i mean how many Canadians really give a rats ass about detainees, does it really give us the moral high ground... Or is it something deeper....are we really telling the US government we like you, we'll fight beside you, but we don't trust you when it comes down to your word that you'll treat our POW's according to the conventions...the same could be said to the Afgan government, were here to help but your word means nothing. These detainees are either Afganis, or foreigners and they should be an afgan problem period...don't like that solution take it up with them...It seems more time and effort is spent on giving our enemies rights and comfort than what is being spent on our own troops...Do we really think that the Taliban has such a group worried about Coalition POW's or is cutting ones head off with a dull knife humane or not...ya right... Something all Canadians should keep in the back of thier minds that not one of us would be afforded the same rights or expect the conventions to be followed by this group of scumbags. who's only goal in life is to be killed in battle killing infidels....Thats me and you, your kids, your dog, your cat, and your pet fish willy.... So what is the agenda, and why are we pushing to get this all done.

It is being told, most of the goodwill, or good things are being buried or dismissed by the stuff that sells, the violence and death. although the government does publish this items on it's various web sites and does release this info at press releases...the media does not always print or cover them... The government does not do a good job on making public all the details about the mission...and thier lack of effort in this area has hurt the mission profile in Canada. One has to either be there or pull all this info from all the different sources and read between the lines to get an acurate picture.

Fortunata: .Your right, i do look at this problem with a prejudice outlook, for serveral reasons, I've been there seen the sites ,the smells, talked to the people, plus i have a vested interest of sorts, to see this to the finish. I've seen the majority of the media and the way they work, and it left a bad taste in my month. Not only were events slanted to sell papers, but most were told from 2 and or 3 rd hand accounts, not many went outside the wire.. But your right we all slant it to fit our needs or wants.

The fitness test describe below is the minimum standard for the entire armed forces called the express test.... Anyone could pass this test....or should be able to... the Army has a tougher one called the BFT (Battle fitness test) it consists of a 13. km rucksack march with 55 lb of kit which includes ruck ,wpn, and tac vest and helmet to be completed in 2 hours and 26 mins. at the end of this march you must carry a person of equal size over your shoulder for 100 meters, and then dig a trench in 6 mins....even that is not so bad. Everyone in the army must pass this test to declared fit and deployable....failure to pass this test means no tours, and could mean carear implications...if you pass this test you are not required to take the express test... As for the Officers, everyone in the army must pass this test there are no exception, OK perhaps flag officers....but normally they all are required to do it and pass it...In battle leaders lead from the front can't do that if you can't keep up with the young bucks...being fit is a must, atleast in the army, regardless of age.