Army Guy

The fu**ing prime directive !!!! are you serious !!!! So your whole decision making process is based on a script of some SF writer.... Canada is with America. We provide them with the raw materials they need to build weapons that they give to dictators along with finacial aid and intelligence. These dictators use these things to subjugate and terrorize their people and destabilize their region. The US is a state sponser of terrorism and chaos and we're part of the network that enables them - by the very same criterion the US uses to define its enemies. By far the worse thing we supply the US with is our moral support. You should be deeply troubled by that and we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves. Considering we export approx 90 % of all our exports to the US, our whole economy is based on that fact.... We also import more than 70 % of all our goods from the US. Even if we wanted to take the high moral ground here we could not, as our economies are linked to the piont that we could not survive with our exports to the US.... So the real question is how much are you willing to sacrafice for some moral belief "you think" you have... So who is going to make those decisions....maybe the next time you check off a name on a ballot you should ask your self that very question...do i trust this person to make those very kind of decisions....You make it sound like we do this on a regular basis...go to war...this is Canada we are talking about is it not... Let me get this right...first of you want the "what did you call them "oh yes" the Hawks" to pay with war bonds for any off shore military operation....so by rights they are going to spend thier own money to send our troops overseas, and then your requiring a national referendum to see if they can go in the first place....So you want a say if they go or not, but you don't want to pay for it....WOW....maybe thats why we as indiv don't get to chose where our tax dollars are spent.... I don't get it, what is it that you have again'st our nation trying to help another out...your like that spoiled little kid with an entire pie in your hands, surrounding you is six starving kids and your refusing to give any of your pie away....and your talking about moral high ground... We are so lucky here in Canada to be blessed by so many freedoms and rights, or a full pie....and for some damn reason you don't like to share, to give that gift of some of those freedoms to someone else....And to top it all off you don't even have to get out of your damn chair....volunteers in our nations military/diplomatic corps, and RCMP are willing to do all the work, all you really have to do is spend 2 cents of every tax dollar you send in... but still you got this 6x6 stuck up your ass and it's goes again'st your grain, all your beliefs to help out... It must be nice to have that type of character that you can turn your back on a nation in need, when it will cost you so little, with no effort on your part, we won't interupt the hockey game, we will ensure your pogy check gets delivered on time.

So what do you base your decision on becoming a CO on, or is it that you just disagree with this current operation in Afgan. The reason i ask is becuase your above statement rules out many of the traditional excuses for becoming a CO. Does that mean you agree with the Talibans decision to harbour those responsiable for 9/11 ? Do you believe terrorist should have a safe sancturary to hide, train, plot, and carry out thier attacks without fear of retribution? Just what evidance do you have that not one Afganis national was involved ? The US and NATO has already proven to the UN assembly that the AFganis government at the time was guilty of harbouring Bin Ladin and his merry band of thugs and terrorists...it was also proven that the Taliban were aware that AL quiada had serveral training camps in which this scumbags conducted training for thier inter national terror campiagn, and allowed them to exist, even assisted them in training, allowed them to collect funding, ...So although no Afganis took part in the actual terror attack they are complict in harbouring, training , and providing protection to them.... With the Afgan mission well past it's 6 th year. every hospital, school and other projects we constructed are still there...and still operating....so much for the couple of year theory...Alot of Canadians think the way you do, i'll doubt it'll will take root, there is no way it's going to work , take a look at history...the mission is doomed.... what a load of crap.... You have no more proof of it's failure than i do showing how it is going to suceed unless you have a cyrstal ball and know for a fact then all your doing is speculating...the same as those that are on the mission, they believe it's going to work and only time will say for sure... So when Canadians sit down for supper tonight, they should ask themselfs "what price would you pay for our current freedoms" then they should ask if they had the chance to help another nation to have similar rights and freedoms would they....and what would they be willing to pay for such a gift.... So as a CO your nation has not asked you to fight or even perticapte in a support role... there are enough men and women in uniform now that are volunteering to do that job for you, for all of us.....all your asked is to send your 2 cents out of every tax dollar you send to support them and the mission...So that our nation can give this gift to the Afganis people... But like yourself, and many other Canadians we have said no fing way...it's to much money...are we really that cheap... Yes more discussion, it seems our generation does alot of that....much like we discussed Rwanda, by the time we made up our minds it was over and thousands were dead...hell we are still discussing Darfur and how many have died...Canada as a nation has been doing these types of operations for years in fact we are reconginzed world wide as excellant peace keepers and peace makers...something so many canadians are proud of...until they see how much it will cost....then we change our minds... Thats because you have failed to do any research on the topic, you've already made up your mind...it will fail...there for it's a waste of time....not worth our effort... So why is it that most Canadian soldiers that serve in Afgan don't see it that way....They see the good we are doing , they see progress, they see what most canadians don't... hope,a chance for peace, a hope for a better future. and they are willing to risk everything to give them that...including thier lives...now what's that about your 2 cents again.... But hey, they don't have a hockey team, or national beer....piss on them...they are not worth it...them mid evil goat herding bunch of camel riders...

So your basing your opinions on what happen 50 plus years ago, and mostly on 2 armies that commited some of histories worst crimes again'st humanity. To say that there was no good guys in war is a blanket statement...and not fair to those that did or have conducted themselfs in an honorable fashion...One has to remember what it is we ask our soldiers to do on our nations behalf...we ask them to step into hell, to live there until one nation gives up...and while we expect them to conduct themselfs as professionally as possiable... which means abiding by the conventions, moral values of our own nation at the time. If being rude and drunken and behaving poorly are considered in your oinion to be bad then perhaps your right thier is no good guys...Canadians had a well know reputation during both wars for these very facts...OK perhaps not rude...but drunken and behaving poorly was diffinently a Canadian trait and yet on the field of battle they are second to none... This is not the case with todays Canadian military, Yes we have a few indiv's that do not conform , but as a whole were are professional soldiers and considered some of the worlds best....It is here i take offensive to some of your remarks , not only defending my reputation but that of alot of good soldiers past and present.... Everyones opinion is valued, the trick is to express your opinion without attacking anothers beliefs.

The boy still is responsiable for his actions, right or wrong. ingorance of the laws is no excuse....he did after all have no problem in learning combat skills, he knew exactly what they would be used for....and he had no problem in carrying out those skills....He was 15 at the time, and over there was considered an adult many years ago.... What surprises me is that no one is calling for any action to be carried out again'st the parents, albiet one is dead. but both had a part in this whole mess...and yet they are still considered fit enough to raise the others, here in Canada... Did he know about the genva conventions, i'd say he knew those ones pertaining to the treatment of POW's...like the criminals here in Canada they know enough about the law when it comes to saving thier own asses...and in Afgan i don't know how many times i was adviced by Afganis POW's of what they thought thier rights were.... Did he know it was again'st the conventions to shoot medics, or did he know if they were medics proably not.... one could also say that if the medics had let the infantry boys clear the area first this would not have happened...as young MR Kadr would be laying with all those virgins he was promised.... So a whole seris of events have lead us to where we are now....Self defense perhaps....but that would mean he would be label as a combatant and at the very min could be held until this mess is over... The question is what do we do with him now...let him go ? what do you think the young angry Khadr will do, my bets is on traveling back to Afgan to carry out what he started....do you think his family will talk some sense into him...remember this is the same family that tried to talk one of thier sons into becoming a suicide bomber.... or do we leave him locked up until this mess is over... Just one more note ,don't kid yourself about the status of all those POW's currently held in gitmo, or other prisons...they are there for a reason...I've seen what these guys have done, most would make those mifia guys look like good church going people....

Oleg Bach: You really have an axe to grind with our nations military, always with a sly remark or comment. So tell us Oleg what is it that bothers you so much about the military... Is it that you've grown up with a silver spoon stuck in your month and daddy would'nt let you play with the commoners, or is it you did not have what it took to be a soldier, and was forced to work with daddy in his corporation, while secretively playing with your tin soldiers with the corner office door closed.... Or maybe your just one of us, a son of a labourer, a uneducated commoner, who for what ever reason was not excepted into our elite club now you hate the very instution that you so wanted to be a part of. Do we need to call for a group hug, or maybe we can move onto to slamming another one of your carear choices.

Welcome back weaponeer, hows your adjustment to the slow lane going. eyeball: It's funney that you chose to bring religion into this, are you a religious man eyeball, is that why you have declared yourself an CO...I do believe in God to a degree, I'm no thumper but i do believe in a higher existance... that all being said the bible is full of examples of violence, of what God did in order to preserve his beliefs when they were openly challenged...Lets not forget Sodam and gomorrah, my favorite is the tale of the Noah and Ark ( i guess he was just alittle pissed) and killed everything on the planet.... It is also full of references of in which God used armies to throw out other nations and races from the lands he declared for his chosen people.... Which is why i thought it funney that you bring in religion., as it does not support any of your arguments. one day you will come to the conclusion that as long as man walks this planet there will be those that will take what they need or want thru the use of force....and the only way to deal with them is thru the use of force...not turning the other cheek, or telling them "your bad and you do bad things"...but by taking a stick a beating the shit out of them, standing up for yourself,and your beliefs.

Actually you did suggest that very fact, you said you find it offensive that 7 cents of each of your tax dollars is being spent on the military, that you suggested that any offesive military operations be funded by war bonds or as you put it funded by those that actually agree that Afgan is a noble mission....And out of your 7 cents approx 2 cents of that is actually spent on operations in Afgan, the rest is being used in day to day operations here in Canada.... If you get that option then why does the rest of the population not get the same opition by opting out of things they do not agree with...such as UI or our present failing health care program....Hence why i said it would be a double edge sword. Not true here in Canada sorry. Current Status In the current National Defence Act there is no recognition of conscientious objection. And, as Canada currently does not have conscription, there is no legislation with respect to conscientious objection. However, Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom's recognizes the right of freedom of conscience. "Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion" (Sec.2). Given Canada's historic record, it is presumed that individuals could make a claim for conscientious objector status on the basis of the charter and historic precedents. Until quite recently, there was no provision for persons in the Armed Forces to apply for a release in the event that they came to a position of conscientious objection while in service. In the mid-1990s, the Defence Department made a commitment to allow persons with a genuine change of heart to leave the military before their five year commitment was up. CO You may percieve this event a victory in regards to your beliefs, but i see it as opening a box for the rest of those with an axe to grind. and opting out of thier taxs. As far as our governments changing reasons for being in Afgan, yes the mission has changed, along with the reasons "thanks for keeping -up", our orginal mission was to rid Al Quadia and the taliban from power, that mission is accomplished, next the "elected" Afganis government asked our nation to stay and assist with security and re building thier nation....sorry if this sounds to "offensive" to you, we as a nation have done this type of operations under UN mandate before, this mission was actually blessed by the UN it self....so what is it that is so offensive to you....does it piss you off that we might be given present day Afganis some rights, the same that you take for granted everyday...Does it piss you off we might actually be improving the Avg Afganis quality of life... what about this mission do you disagree with... You have no idea what it is like over there, as a soldier or for that matter as a civilian. Instead you disregard my reasons for going over there because it goes again'st your beliefs, fine that is your chioce and right....But as you have beliefs so do i, and i happen to think that this mission is a noble one, for several reasons...Canada has nothing to gain from Afgan itself, there is no oil, diamonds etc that would be worth all this effort..... We as a nation are not trying to add another province or bent on world domination...instead we are offering our hand to a country that has had the shit kicked out of it since the begining of time....we are offering to build something they don't have alot of...a few basic rights and freedoms...sounds pretty damn offensive to me... So while you may not agree with my reasons or methods , what have you done to assit the Afganis people or for that matter any of the people in need across the globe...At least i've , along with thousands in our nations military, RCMP, and Diplomatic pool have got off your collective asses and actually put a plan into action...What have the objectors done...Is that crickets i hear.... So you don't want all of your 7 cents back form each of your tax dollars just the ones that are spent towards Afgan....But then again most Canadian swould say the same thing, that is until it comes to actual funding the equipment needed to do those very things... Yes it was a terriable criminal act, But the taliban refused to hand over those that planned and organized the attacks...in fact the told the US that they would protect them and use force to throw out any country that tried to bring to justice those Al Quadia members....In thier eyes Al quadia were hero's... Worked wonders in Iraq just after the 1 st gulf war...Oh wait a second was'nt there another gulf war after that.... Yes very inconscionable of turkey to go after terrorist that have been bombing and terrorizing large groups of turkey citizens...and yes they have tried all your methods....but how do you explain to a people that has grown tried of being bombed ...that we can't deal with these bad people with violence...because that would be nconscionable.... Let me get this right it's all right to watch thousands upon thousands die while turning our heads ....but it's unconscionable to take direct military action that could save more lives than it took.... No problem with peaceniks, is they want thier cake but they want it for free....And the men and women who provide all of that do it year after year while sacraficing everything and getting nothing in return except you shoving your ideas down our throats....do more, with less violence...and try and not look like soldiers thier sooo offensive.... Just so that i'm clear has Canada ever taken part in a war or operation that was declared unlawful, or unjust....So why is thier so much anti military here in Canada....it's not like we live in a policed state...that we travel around the globe kicking everyones ass, because we can....why so much fear.... something else i thought might be useful ...got it from the same link as the one above. Conscientious Objection to Paying Taxes in Support of War Many conscientious objectors argue that paying taxes to support the government's efforts to train and prepare for war is objectionable. Some of the early experiences with fees for militia service are mentioned above. In both World War I and II, Mennonites in Canada successfully applied to the Canadian government to issue specially marked bonds or non-interest bearing certificates that would be used only for relief or other non-military purposes. The opposition to the payment of “war taxes” continues through the work of Conscience Canada (www.consciencecanada.ca). Conscience Canada administers a Peace Tax Fund which provides a way for individuals to protest the use of their income tax money for military purposes. Individuals may file the military portion of their federal tax (or a symbolic amount) with the Peace Tax Fund. Their monies are held in trust until such a time as the government establishes a legal way for COs to designate their military taxes for peaceful purposes. Currently, persons who actually withhold a portion of their tax are violating the law. In the 1990s, a coalition of peace groups and churches, including Conscience Canada, the Quakers and Mennonite Central Committee Canada, made several appeals to the government for the provision of a legal means whereby individuals could designate the military portion of their federal tax to peaceful purposes. At this time, such provisions have not yet been made.

Hillier nixed the idea or did he advised to have the decission go as it did....Hillier may be the CDS but he still reports to a clear chain of command....The MND and the PM would be the guys that made the final chioce...

Thats a double edge sword don't you think, do you really think that your new method of deciding where each of our tax dollars would work...do you think that those depts or programs would truely get the funding they need... only pay into programs you use or want to. How many would opt to pay into our current health care system.... How many Canadians would elect to pay any taxes at all ..There alot of depts or programs that burn my ass as well, ones that i pay into and can not use. Such as UI, Health Care, to name a few.... As a Canadian tax payer you do have a say in what missions or operations that our nation goes on. and it comes in many forms....your vote, your voice, the list goes on. You say your a conscientious objector when really your anti military period..And it pisses you off that this board is full of military or ex military people, people that don't hold or share the same values as yourself. It's very clear in your posts, your opinion is valued on this board, by most, but to state your case you don't have to poke the lion in the eye and then wave the stick in front of his face. but if it please you to do so then don't be surprised when it bites you... Do you really think that would solve all the problems the world is having today, give me a break...And what do we do with those nations that build thier own arms ...And then use them on the weaker nations....besides do you really think the worlds major arms dealers really give a shit if you apply santions again'st them china, russia, USA....come on... Arms are not responsiable for mans need to kill each other....man is...man has been doing it since he could walk....arms just make it more efficient....in Rwanda hundrds of thousands died, most by clubs and Machettes.... You still don't get it do you, lets just say one day we cut the US of from all our natural resources...after warning them to stop selling arms across the globe....how long do you think it would take for them just to come up here and take them....I think your tough love would be shove up your tough bum....Beside who would enforce this tough love and bunch of conscientious objectors, who are opposed to violence or the use of it. Problem with objectors is they are the first to scream bloody hell about military spending....but are the first to scream, why we did not have enough search and rescue equipment to pull thier asses out of the ocean or mountain top, they are the first to scream during ice storms, and floods, and forests fires....WHY WHY WHY....we were not ready....

DO you really just make this stuff up as you go, have you checked the last names of those boys killed in combat...apparently not, perhaps you should do a little research before lighting you hair on fire and then jumping on your computer.....and starting one of your rants. This whole country was built by immigrants, it is also defended by immigrants, both new and old alike. made up of men and women who share the same ideals, that not all of us can sit back and watch the world go by, someone has to stand up and fight for what they belief in, or for a cause that is noble.... But of course you are exericising one of your basic rights, freedom of speach and expression, so enlighten us, the poor, white ,christian ,corn feed, sacraficial lambs....pour out your sources to back up your claims that we are all toys for the rich and famous to play with, to prove to the other rich Muslims that they are in the same class, and have balls of gold...the size of large grape fruit... or maybe just maybe there is no boggie man theories and this is just as it is a bunch of nations trying to help another....

Kitchener: One has to admit that it is a good first document, one also has to admit that this type of nation building has not been tried for over 50 years and that book is old and outdated. sure the UN has tried on many different occasions but was rarely sucessful. So NATO is forced to take another look and try and find a solution. I'd just like to make something clear, that although ISAF is mentioned alot in the document it is not the only organzation involved here. there are countless organizations and other governments that influence the events in Afgan, even within ISAF which is made up of serveral componets, most which are duplicated in other organizations and not all have the same agenda or for that matter on the same page. And with all the above ongoing there is still the bad guys ( taliban, merc, hostile governments,etc.)that influence many events and decissions with Afgan. i guess my piont is the plan looks good on paper but survives only up until the first contact with the enemy. then each dept and government agency operates within it's own mandate...or more or less by the seat of thier pants...remember there is no rule book to follow. ISAF is more than just a military presence, actually our military is just a componet of ISAF...there is the battle group which does the military thing, then there is the PRT or provincial reconstruction team, made up of many groups Military and civilian construction types, a security componet, a diplomatic componet, and civilian policing componet, and a few other depts not related to DND. These things are happening everyday, not much media milage to be had from building a school, sinking a well, repairing a power station, monitoring district elections, so these events are rarely reported....after all it is a combat zone and real...blood and guts sell papers....WIth out our military presence these type of activities could not go on, not only do they provide protection to the workers and the people these projects are there to help. but to ensure the work is not undone. As for the lighten rod comment yes, we do attract a lot of attention from the bad guys , but better us than some poor villager...Most of our soldiers have completed 3 or more tours, everyone them has volunteered , there has to be something to be said about that fact. Nice question, whom indeed, but what a lofty goal for a nation to set for itself, to be apart of the solution that could be proven in afgan and if it worked ,tried in other parts of the world. Is that not worth the price we are paying today...Or we could do nothing and expect nothing in return, less we be disappionted...atleast now we can stand tall hold our heads up and say atleast we tried...atleast we attempted it, yes we may fail as others often remind us that history can not be wrong....but then again, how did we get to the moon, clearly history was against us there as well... There is no short term answers nor step by step plan to rebuild a troubled nation, this much we know for a fact. But there is progress being made in Afgan and it is being made by everyone involved in this conflict. It's to bad the left, center and right could not come together and work on a solution. We as a nation may not be perfect, infact far from it, but i don't think we have been pressed into this operation thru influence of others, or by other means or goals, but rather see it as a noble deed , to grant or assist another nation to obtain what we take for granted everyday.

Actually, every large piece of military hardware is procured thru PWSG, a civilian organzation, that handles all government spending and purchases over 5000.00. They have no links to DND at all. Kind of like sending your wife down to buy your power tools, or your husband down to buy hygine products....you hope and pray they get what you want ...more times than not it's not even close to what you want or need....only difference is lives depend on these purchases. No one gets a say in just how each and every one of our personal tax dollars get spent, but lets face it DND is not the only government dept that waste monies...and since only 7 cents out of every one of your dollars gets spent on defense i'd say it's a small price to pay....for the services alot of Canadians recieve 24 hours a day 365 days a year.... check the site i provided and you'll find tones of depts getting a lot bigger share of the pie and not really producing anything or providing any services. CDN tax guide PS as a guy who's life depends on your tax dollars thanks, just wish there was more of them.

Yes, but at the time NFLD was not part of Canada and faught under the british flag beaumont hamel

I find it hard to imagine That a giving the Iraq mission the thumbs down, is our greatest foreign policy achievement are we that short sighted...or is it just me. I've got a few that in my opinion would top a decission not to get involved in Iraq...Not getting involved in going to Iraq was not a big deal, and at the time it was a matter of chosing the lesser of two evils..Iraq or Afgan. it was'nt until the passing of time did it prove to be the road of less resistance. What about getting involved in WWI.. What about getting involved in WWII... What about Joining NATO for collective defense. What about lester pearsons resolution of the Suez crisies, and the creation of peace keeping... Lester pearson poll The most striking evidence of Canadians' views on war and peace came when they were asked to name Canada's greatest achievement in foreign policy. Fully 33 per cent chose Ottawa's decision to say no to joining in the Iraq war. Even Conservative voters (27 per cent) made giving Iraq the thumbs-down their leading "greatest achievement."

Here is another example of our government making decissions based on what they think is best...without consulting those experts in that field. I mean do we tell our contractor's " no i want the basement on the top of the house, and i want it built with this new locally built hand saw, sorry we could not afford to get the handle option ... Do we really think the navy wanted Armed ice breakers, i'd say about as much as they wanted those damn subs we bought...The navy has so many short falls right now it's past laughable, bordering on bringing one to tears actually...and i bet no where on thier list of things we need to buy was armed ice breakers.. Not that our north does not need to be patroled, because it does, but we need to buy the right tools for the job. And we need to change the way we purchase equipment for the military. what we really need is a white paper that most Canadians can get behind

no queenslave: Canada a police state...your joking right...we maybe alot of things put not a police state...trust me i've been to many police states and we don't even come close...If this were a police state this guy would have been karted off never to be seen or heard of again.... Nonsense...along with B.S

American Woman: I think you hit the nail on the head, people, most North americans don't want to engage anyone outside of thier comfort zone...just getting a hello or a good morning out of a stranger in the city is considered outside the box, and rare..Rarer yet is someone addressing the matter of someone misbehaving, throwing computers to the ground etc.etc...most would ingnore the problem and by pass it rather that act.. Instead people feel more in thier zone just observing, doing nothing...is it right by no means...

?lets not get our purchases mixed up.... there is 2 purchases for trucks....one to replace the med wheeled veh fleet listed below Med log trucks And there is this one for heavy trucks required in Afgan, those being used where in a poor state of repair, and i don't think either was sole sourced Hvy truck. true enough, but not all the manufactures build to the same quality either...there are good choices and bad chioces.....Our government has a track record of going with the cheapest bid, or "Made in Canada label"....And this is not good pratice either....at least not for equipment that someones life may depend on ....what make sense to the accountants does not make it a good chioce to a soldier...vice versa... The entire government purchasing system is flawed....the government should be approving funding, dollar amounts only ...not what equipment, types etc....unless it is stratigic in nature such as nuk attack subs, bombers, aircraft carriers etc. not trucks, tanks, helo's....

There is plenty of material out there that would and does suggest that Russia would use Nuk in either offense or defense modes. Russia has the mind set that any wpn they develope is meant and will be used in a combat threater. an unused wpn is a useless wpn... x This was confirmed by many sources, including ex soviet gens , plans found in east germany,the list goes on...it is part of thier tactics, it is how they train, etc etc .... Most would say that russia would be sacraficing it's own soldiers in a radition enviroment...long term yes it is true, but that is acceptable losses for them...remember that one does not have to operate at ground zero, for obvious reasons, there is nothing left....but rather in the fringes of ground zero, combat formations exposure would be kept to a min....long term cas from exposure were not brought into the equations... Tac nuks would be used on major NATO areas such as major airfields, major troops concentrations, major transportation hubs etc....Chem wpns would be used on smaller formations and hubs...while major air, land and sea attacks would concentrate on the rest.... As far as the MAD thing goes, NATO might not have the ability to strike from europe anyways.... NATO forces stationed in europe were only meant to delay Warsaw pact formations for 24 or more hours, until reinforcements could arrive from else where....which was a pipe dream of NATO's...no way they the US could deploy ground forces to europe in 24 hours...takes longer to load the ship...then there is travel time... and it would take thousands of ships to get the amont of troops and equipment needed to defend europe...as for the pre postioned stuff....yes nice idea but they need more than a corp size formation to stop the wall of soviet armour that would be decending from all pionts of the compass.... That being said the Soviets time table was unreleastic...even with the use of NUK's ....7 days to take most of europe "can't even drive a tank there in that time" But could it be done with the equipment they had on the front just before the wall came down...i would guess yes...and if they were slow at taking it, NATO would not have the troops left to retake or push them back... So why did they not do it...i have no answer to that...perhaps the US had explained to them that they would attack mother russia with nuks ...i don't know....But to say that they did not have the equipment or man power to do so is wrong...they had NATO outmanned and out gunned atleast 10 to 1....without Nuks...

Perhaps it is the Army mentality that comes out every once in awhile, whinniers and complainers are weak...soldiers that whine and complain are chastised, and are told Don't whine and complain unless you come up with a solution to the problem....anything else is a waste of air and effort... I've reminded myself and my troops of this very fact on many occasions. It is one of the basic rights we are employed to protect and preserve. freedom of speach and freedom of thought. and for those that are using those freedoms i applaud you, in fact i encouage you to express yourself until your heard...regardless of what other might say or do...standing up for your believes is an admirable quality don't you think.. Much more than allowing someone to heard the population like sheep, into some dark corner to have there "skirts" raised above thier heads and be given dictation or what ever our government gives out today. I guess my piont is Canadians although they have the right to whine, and complain ....it really needs to be earned does it not....want to bitch and moan then atleast have the bulls balls to do something about it.... With the support of the people ,our present government would have no problems driving home purchases that could and would save dozens of soldiers lifes....but as it stands they are reluctant because it would mean thier jobs or lack of support.... a demand for our return well, we'd be home until the next mission and would buy us some time to reorg and regroup...either way our soldiers win...but someone has to speak.. speak and squezze.

I think that the Average Canadian knows enough about this War to make a sound judgement. Yes i will agree with you that our government has done a shitty job in regards to keeping Canadians informed. But there is more than enough agencies out there providing them with info. and if they wanted to be inform they could... What i do disagree with is your statement " they may not care anyway" , I think they do care just to lazy to do anything about it. Funney how people always come back with that comment, The government speaks we just listen....we are powerless...So let me ask you this, How can a professor, and some BC peace group not only get our government to listen, but to take action....How is that possiable when they do the talking and we do the listening... They sure fell for it hook line and sinker at the begining of the war. When the war was supported by the majority of Canadians... Is it, our history is full of examples of our government being forced to listen to the people, and take action. (After all it is how they survive another day to scrap the pork barrel) the professor is just one example of how one man grabbing our government by the nuts and squezzing until they act... So why is it i blame the Canadian people for lossing the war on the home front...for failing to grab our government by the nuts and squezzing to make yourselfs heard... I mean if one professor can do it, the majority of Canadians should be able to squash a few sets anyways...or one would think...Maybe i'm disillusioned But what really pisses of soldiers is that the Majority will piss and moan about the War, but they are to lazy to do anything about it....without thier voice we can not persue the war as it should be ( better equipment, more troops etc..)...nor can we end it and withdrawal as they want it to. So the soldiers are caught in the middle forced to fight a war with no real tangable amounts of new equipment coming NOW....nor is there any signs of withdrawal... either way it is the failure of the people of Canada for not doing anything...Can you see why we are frustrated... It is not that we begrudge your opinion, or we fault you from having a different one than us(soldiers)... what we hate is everyone moaning and bitching about the war and yet sitting on thier hands doing nothing.... For years we have gone on UN peacekeeping missions and forced to observe, sit on the side lines and watch as the WAR rages on, as both sides commit crimes and not really accomplish anything Bosina was a prime example of that, and those early years of bosina are still fresh on most soldiers minds... Now we are taking an active role, we see the results of our actions and it is making a difference to those that really count in all this the Afgan people. Soldiers are not interested in polictical goals or nations objectives, what makes the difference to us is that we are accomplishing something worth our effort and sacrafice. I'm telling you this , so you can see why this mission is so important to those that are taking part in it.. Yes, there are alot of places within the world that are more deserving of our attention, that could bennifit more from our efforts and tax dollars. But in Afgan we already have our foot in the door we have already invested so much of our time and effort and sacrafice that those facts alone should be worth a second look. Yes Afgan does have alot of baggage that goes with it, corrupution, outside nations underlining our efforts, the list goes on, but governments come and go, what does remain constant is the Afgan people.... And those are the ones we are trying to help...those are the ones our soldiers willing to sacrifice thier lives for...and if we are willing to give so much to this mission why can't the people of Canada at least take some action of thier own...be it support this mission they sent us on, or recall us back home... I don't think that is to much to ask, after all it was the people of Canada that asked us to suit up and go fight, we've kept our end of the bargin.

myata: Just how can "WE" be doing anything together...when the Majority of Canadians do not support this war, or any efforts that go along with it. Nor do they see any rush to take any action, be it withdrawal, or support the mission. No, but giving them something to live for and to work towards is certainly better than what they had was it not. That may not mean a whole lot to someone like a Canadian whom takes for granted everyday just how fortunate we are as Canadians. But to an Afganis it does mean everything. Now we need another debate on whether we are winning or not....We already know we ( soldiers)are winning and doing our part....it is on the home front that YOU are lossing and NOT doing your part.... This is confusing was'nt the time to debate whether we should go or fight or hand out teddy bears before we told the troops "start your engines", and they loaded aircraft and ships. or is this a typical Canadian thing to do...act now debate later,... Actually the debates did happen in fact serveral debates have happened since our troops have arrived in Afgan. and you want more, fair enough lets debate it in true Canadian fashion...i mean there has been one form of debate about this topic since our arrival over 6 years ago...I'm just curious has all this debate come to any form of concenous, anything at all. So while the left has thier panties in a knot about the mission being extended really by the time the debate even decides something, 2011 will already come and gone.... more soldiers will have died and the only thing your debate will have decided is where they can piont the fingers at to shove all the blame... It is the Soldiers that are stuck in the middle...It is the soldiers that are frustrated and srceaming ...just decide something please....support the mission so we can win this thing and go home....or pull us back home...that is what YOU are failing to understand... But hey i know there has to be a debate first....

Here is a few other reports, i put them out there not to disprove your sources but rather to show just how easy one could get a report these days. Macleans US General Gen Hillier UK GEN CSIS We are winning the ground war in AFGAN ,even the Taliban will admit that. Where we as a nation are failing is on the home front, the fight for "your" hearts and minds without them this War is lost, regardless of how well our troops do on the battle field. Why is this frustrating, Because the soldiers are putting everything they have into this mission including thier lives...only to be lossing this whole thing at home...we are not blaming anyone...just want you to make up your damn minds....either support us and the mission...or demand our return,...either way the People of Canada need to decide and take action...one way or the other....until then we will continue to do the job you asked us to do with 150 % of our efforts...

No, imaginations are not required, The taliban are not a bunch of Red Necks from northern ont, not even close, They make these good old home boys look like girls from the church choir. Chear leaders for the jump rope team....Comparing them to the Hell's angels was the closest politically correct comparison i've read so far....but even this does not go far enough. These guys have very good military training, most are seasoned combat vets, they are fantical in what ever they do, Thier training , thier killing , thier approach to this whole war...How many hell's angels would rather die fighting than be captured. How many Hells angels would slowly cut a man's head off with a dull knife, then mount the head on a pike to act as a warning to others. How many would cut a little girls hands off with an axe, just for going to school, then sit down and have a good laugh and joke about how hard she screamed.........There are thousands of examples that prove they are "SCUMBAGS" barly worth the bullet to send them to Allah.... It's time we stopped thinking of the Taliban as backwards, confused, poor , and to borrow a phrase from argus "Brown people"....And instead looking at them as they should be... thru a rifle scope...These scumbags, will and have committed acts that would make a seasoned Nazi vet puke. All in the name to hold on to what the once had, total power of the people. They will not stop until they are eliminated or achieve that goal. But we knew that before going over there, before our troops got off the planes....we knew that when the Majority of Canadians stood behind this mission. What you have read is one report, Now your calling for us to pull pole , pack up your tents we are going home....Senlis says we can't win this damn thing, and we take this as gosple because they have a office in Afgan.... because they are military experts in this type of operations, because they have talked with WHO ? the Taliban, the local people, the soldiers WHO ?...Because they just know, it's freaky... Give me a break...in fact give us all a break. It is the winter offensive and it's winding down, Yes NATO has taken casualities as it does every winter, and every spring...But the Taliban are lossing more people than NATO , or the AFGAN army or police are....How that translates into winning i don't know...

I don't think you can boil it down to something that simple, i think there is a progression to all of it...I don't think it started off that way, Hilter and his merry band of wingnuts sold thier Idealogy to the masses because most of them believed and lived by it. But to say it was all about power , i don't think so " just my opinion".