Army Guy

Thats not what the Afgan people are saying, nor is it what many of the other groups in afgan saying.

I did give it some thought, at first i was going to use "majority" but thought it to strong...As it is the majority that does want this afgan issued dropped, or changed and most of those opinons can or will fit into those i mentioned... Perhaps "typical" is to harsh as it includes the minority that don't deserve to be fitted or slotted in with the majority.... It's not just on the intranet, it's every where, alot of Canadians are losing focus on why we are there, and losing interest in the whole mission...they want change, and they want it now....

Are you kidding me, "power and wealth and the need for imperialistic / economic expansion"...and of all the nations out there we choose Afganistan, since it is your theory perhaps you explain why Afgan...why not Iraq or some other oil rich nation....something we can really benifit from. other than opium and a proposed pipeline....or is it just our turn to beat these poor bastards around... eyes and a sense of conscience you say, how so...you've clearly stated you would perfer that nature take it's course to leave them sort thier own problems out....because you don't want to spend your tax dollars on offensive military operations...."nice conscience you have especially since you know this will involve the needless deaths of thousands"...hey... Rwanda hundrds of thousands died but it is the nature of things....and we seemed to get over that pretty fast....And your a fire fighter....why ? saving people from a burning house seems to me cheating the natural order of things....is it....I don't think you feel this way, i think you would risk your life to save someone less fortunite....The same way i feel as a soldier, willing to risk everything i have to help someone in need...right now the Afganis are in need...and if we only save one then sir, it would be all worth the effort....and money spent.

There's a typical Canadain solution to a problem, Screw them...who cares, or eyeballs favorite, let nature take it's course....Until that is it interfers with a hockey game broad cast, pogie check delivery, or liquor stores operations, then it's a matter of national security....Then the people of Canada stand up and take notice, and with one voice demand action be taken... Mean while in a land far, far away a nation of people are being punished, tortured, terrorized, executed by a group of scumbags, and all we as Canadians are worried about, is how much money it costs us, is thier government corupt, and how are we treating those poor under feed, misguided, mistreated, prisoners....Damn my eyes swell up everytime i think of those poor bastards.... Not a second thought goes toward those victims of those brutal crimes these scumbags commit, you know of some of them , cutting off hands and limbs of children, skinning a man alive to slowly bake in the morning sun....beheading people for the terriable crime of sending his girl to school....But hey screw them right....we are worried about how we look at home, and our inter national reputation....we can't let some prisoners that our troops handled with kid gloves get mistreated by thier own people....screw that, were leaving....pack up all our toys were going home....we can't stand for that.... Lets not lose focus on what we are trying to accomplish here, to rebuild a nation from scratch, by trail and error...to give the Afgan people hope and dreams of a better life....Canadians have to get off thier high horse of double standards, and except that it's not Canada, and they do not have the same customs or beliefs as we do...And they are slowly coming around to seeing that perhaps kicking the shit of some bad guys is maybe not a good thing.... We should be focusing on the main problem, not spending all our time on these side issues....which we seemed to be consumed with.... There are those that want to use this as another excuse to leave, to quit, those are the ones that should have to explain it to those people we really help....Why we are going home ....but then again that would take balls would'nt it...that would take conviction of thier beliefs, that would mean looking those victims and Afganis people in the eyes and saying who cares...where letting nature take it's course....That would mean Canada as a nation would be taking another turn in our history....from being pioneers, to soldiers, to peacekeepers, to heartless bastards...

If you want i can cut and paste your previous comments, in which you have said we should not be involved in offensive operations outside of Canada....that we should let Afgan solve it's own problems and let nature take it's course.....And you hate that your tax dollars are spent on the military (later changed to )offensive military operations outside of Canada...So as far as consistancy there has been none....with the exception your again'st our nation assisting Afgan.... I don't recall anyone calling for an invasion....but they are bring the fight to our shores via 9/11, forcing us to change our life styles.... Really, you mean longer wait at the airports, other security measures being inconvient.... Cause i thought you meant waking up 2 or 3 times a night in a cold sweat reliving past battles or events, doing 5 and 20 meter checks as you get out of you car at the mall , looking for IED's or mines....Cutting off a car on the highway for getting to close....or keep grabing for a pistol that is not there while shopping with your wife in the mall, because you percieved a threat.....And my favorite grabing your wifes arm and twisting it , flipping her over into a submission hold with one hand around her neck the other looking for a wpn......while she was only trying to wake you up for snoring....But things are getting better, the RCMP have talked to me about the dangers of cutting off vehs on the highway for getting to close....my wife has purchased a king size bed, and wakes me up with a broom stick, i still do my checks for IED's and mines, and still react to precieved threats, but things are looking up...And i'm training for my third tour... As for cleaving to the idea that nothing can be solved thru force or the threat of force ....not even you believe in that crap and you've said so your self....the NAZI's were defeated using force, same as the chinese in korea, the cold war, the list is numerous....and Today the Taliban will be defeated using force.... I'm proud of what i do, i'm proud of my nation for taking action when action is needed....and would not trade in my life or my experiances for anything.... OK maybe i'd change for hugh's job at the mansion...

The above statement reinforces the problem i have with your way of things....Your saying that yes i know there will be violence when we leave, thousands will die....but that is the order of things, it's not my problem, nor is it my worry, why should i spend my tax dollars on a problem so far away that really will not effect me personaly in anyway. And if all Canadians thought this way, we would not be in world affairs at all, Dafur crisies...who cares...Rwanda who cares, millions dying each day from stavation, war, etc ...who cares....Not my tax dollars you say, got better things to do than feed a bunch of starving backwards hicks....and there is NO way we are sending our military down there to keep the peace, or give you the precious gift of freedom it cost to much, and maybe will lose a soldier or 2....NOPE no way....suck it up it's the order of things.... Do you really make this up as you go along.....Name one nation that was created or had its national bounders redrawn ....in order to make it easier to conquor later or for that matter make our exploitation of natural resources easier....Think about this for a minute. Think about the British mandate in the middle east or is that a bad example... Yes we know , the natural order of things....we could watch it on TV as muslims pushed the entire jewish nation of Israel into the sea....But we could fell comfortable in the knowledge that "hey it's the order of things" we'd only make it worse....pass me another beer, and change the channel back to the hockey game... Are you kidding me....How soon we forget...How about hilter, stalin, to name a few...and the hundrds of other dictators in the world...or did they just all of sudden appear "poof" there they were dictators, tyrants, what ever...

Here's a few of my pet peeves: - gas prices - the typical city driver...cell phone in one hand, Coffee in the other, and also in a hurry to go no where. - Treehuggers/ peaceniks.... - Divorce lawyers....need i say more... - Bullies/ thugs - whinners/ complainers - beer prices.... - Current Toronto maple leafs team.... - rude and loud people. - posters that don't do thier homework before posting. - someone that can't admit that they are wrong... - "Posers" someone that pretends to be someone that they are not.... - someone that is not willing to stand up for what they believe in... - "Ya" arm chair warriors..... - lazy people.... - people that need to do a job 3 or 4 times because it was'nt done right the first time.... - Liars....

Topaz: I would love to trade in my wpns for a toolbelt and a truck full of lumber, in fact i think we all would...I pray for peace in that region every.... single..... night...But while i'm doing that some brain washed scumbag is praying to his god, praying for a way to allow him to carry out his murderous ways, preying on the weak, so he will be able to keep his repressive way of life.... Perhaps i've become tainted in my views, as i've seen to much of thier handy work....which is not limited to the Afganis men, but includes thier women and children.... There is only one way to deal with those capable of such acts such crimes and that is thru force....Someone has to stand up for these people....in todays world Superman, and buddies exist only on western movie screens....in the real world reality is cruel and and unforgiving....and unless good men are willing to step up and draw the line in the sand, then we will soon be over run with these scumbags...And it just so happens Canada is full of good men and women.... Elections are coming soon, and the Afganis people will speak thru thier vote, perhaps the new government will be an approvement, but give credit when credit is do , he has started with nothing, and is doing the best he can...lets not expect miricles but rather steady progress.... I think that would be a grave mistake, one for our nation, in regards to how the main allieds look at us as a partner, How they see us as a G-8 nation that is not pulling it's load....How the other nations in need will look at us for assistance, and there is the NATO aspect of it as well our pulling out will only put presure on the brits and US forces already there...it will also but presure on the cracks already developed in the NATO alliance....

Even your smarter than that Eyeball, Bin Laden wants The US out of the region entirely, all of her troops , all of her interests, not just the US but everything attached to our western culture....to further his cause which is to create a perfect islamic paridise....we had a brief look at that paridise in Afganistan... Currently the west, mostly the US presence in the area is the only thing from keeping it from exploding or imploding ....How long do you actually think the Nation of Israel would last if the US pulled out and refused to get involved in the area.... He wants to Rebuild Iraq, and Afganistan....Into what a massive training camp for all of his cronies....do you honestly think he his going to stop there....To rebuild something in the image of Afganistan....under taliban rule...is that what you want another repressive nation or in this case a whole region of reprssive nations... With what ? and your sadly mistaken if you think that the average Afganis wants to return those good old days... Why is he offering a truce in the first place, it was him that called for a holy war....Because his side is lossing.... Last time i checked the only ones in harms way were those in Afgan....Can anyone tell me of one sucessful terrorist attack in Canada that has ties with Bin Laden and his merry bandits....(and all that was heard is the sounds of crickets)... Are you afraid of going to the mall, flying, traveling being attacked in your sleep....then how are you in harms way.... But then again maybe we've just been lucky to date....maybe our luck will change....and if or when they do and Canadian blood has been split then what... do we cry Uncle....we give up...we are sorry we went to afgan....or do we hunt those bastards down and gut them like fish....do we crash a 747 packed with explosives into one of thier mosques on a holy day...

Another good read "The world according to Hillier" and it's implications towards Afgan. Hilliers comment>

myata: Would you agree that our government and our media have done a poor job on keeping our country informed about this mission ? If so are you and those 60% willing to punsh the Avg Afganis for those actions, because ultimately those are the very people that will be affected by that very decision...( to withdrawal) It's not going to be our present government, nor will it be our media it will be the Afgan people... I'd like to add to that list above, the Avg Canadian, most have already been polled and have said that thier government and media do a piss poor job relaying info Canadians need to make informed decissions, and yet in todays world Canadians really have no excuse for not searching for thier info else where....And this is not happening....in most cases... We have been doing exactly that for years, under UN and NATO, just open your mind and see for yourself. Nothing has changed since the beginning, we destroyed the Taliban regime and in it's place the AFGANIS people elected thier own government....not one installed by NATO, or any other nation...but rather elected by the Afganis people.... Will it stand on it's own, yes it will, just not yet, but you already know this fact, NATO is working around the clock to build a nation that will stand on it's own, but they and the Afganis need time...they need support...they need our assistance... Yes monies, will be sunk, 2 cents of everyone of your tax dollars, you do the math, thats less than most Canadians give in chartiable donations each year.... As for the lives, those will be paid by our military, RCMP, And diplomatic corps by volunteers each one of them, the same volunteers that continue to go over and over, again, voluteers that are very much aware of the dangers and risk involved, and yet continue to do thier part....Because they are aware of the importance of this gift our nation is offering the afgan people....a fact that is lost on most Canadians... As a soldier with 2 tours in afgan, i think i'm holding my end of the bargin up, All i'm asking is you and each Canadian is to approach this problem with an open mind, stop laying blame, or fault and do what is right.... It's sort of an old poll but it gives us all a prespective from the Afganis people.... Afganis poll

Windyman: Hey was'nt Chicago, home of gangsterly love.....Can i jump to conclusions as well.....you a gangster windy...got a little mafia in ya...I'm starting to see why you have a problem with authority....

Eyeball: You just can't connect these dots can you? The military quagmire we're in over there is backing up and bubbling up through the sewers under Parliament Hill over here and we're becoming a more divided country as a result. I'd rather we get on with the business of fixing our plumbing and modernizing our own democracy than trying to build one for a society that wouldn't know what to do with it anyway. Back the truck up...Afgan is dividing our country...Afgan is not even on most peoples radar....amounting to a mere 2 or 3 mins of conversation at the dinner table on a good night ...more time is spent finding how little jonnies day at school went....Dividing the country now thats a stretch....i would have thought big issues such as the language issue, Quebec separation, would have been considered dividing issues.... Another excellant and solid reason we should give up in Afgan ("trying to build one for a society that wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.") Yes , your right, we should have appoligized to the Fanatic muslim world for building the twin towers in one of thier flight paths , but who knew....we should have let the whole problem just fade into history when the Taliban said "no you can not have them" and we will defend them if you try and take the away to face justice" 9/11 , saw 23 canadians murdered in a horrific way, would Canadians reacted any different if they had been slain in our streets here in Canada...And how many Canadians have to die before people like you take action...30, 50. 100, 1000, what is your number that will get you up off your ass and take action.... But lets not forget about our niebours losses, some 3000 of it's citizens died that day as well...and yes while we did mobilize and offer any help we could...we Canadians have a very short memory, when the US decided to hand out justice, and was looking for any allieds....we forgot about all our defensive packs that we signed with the US...we forgot that for all these years that we have slashed our defense budget, and had to rely on the US for our defense....we actually had to take some time and think about....(group meeting) we actually had to be goaded into it.... Why because those frightened little chimps you talk about, were people like you eyeball...afraid to take action, afraid to hurt anyones feelings, afraid of becoming a target, afraid that someone might get hurt in bringing them to justice... Sometimes the only way to get justice is thru a big stick...and if you don't want to be part of it, then step aside...but don't critize those that do take action, while you still live under thier protection.

Eyeball: Thats the problem isn't it, you can't get anything straight, you've made up your mind long ago, and refuse to approach this topic with an open mind...and now your bent on converting others to your cause, not sure what that is, i'm not even sure if you know what that is... You discribe Afganistan mission as an awkward situation for you and your cause, but have failed really to say why ? other than you have a problem with the use of your tax dollars....You made it quite clear that your real problem is the Afgan people..... screw them, frigg'in backward hillybillies....you'll use every excuse in the book, It cost to much money....it has cost us to many soldiers.....history shows us it can't be done....They aren't smart enough to run there own country...They are corrupt...There national GDP is based on Drug sales....It is a lost cause..... I'm glad that the Canadian's had'nt thought that way while looking up on vimy ridge, or on the D-day landings, or Korea, or the hundrds of UN and NATO missions we've been on....You really need to remove your head from the sand....and instead of concentrating on the neg, look at the postive things we could accomplish in this nation if we were given half the chance....That chance needs to come from Canadians...they are the only ones that can turn this thing around, they are the only ones with the power to give these people the chance they need at peace, and raising thier kids without war.... And the only thing holding you back is the 2 cents on every dollar....Are you serious...are you that cheap...that you have refuse to give this gift we offer because of 2 cents....I would gladly give you back your share of tax dollars spent in your name, and given to the afgan people ....if you just stop this sobbing about how you've been soooooo inconenienced .... More proof that it is working....

I think were are missing the main piont here. Helo's and 1000 troops is not the magical answer that will determine success in Afgan Yes it will certainly change things in the Canadian district , but it is one of many districts.... And for that to happen Canada needs to by part of that to put in it's addtional 1000 troops. To set the example, for others to follow....it would provide our own troops and the Afgan people addtional safety, allowing us to hold more ground and to deny the enemy the use of that ground and resources... Getting all the NATO Countries more involved in the mission is the main piont... and to accomplish that there needs to be more than 25,000 additional troops.... This would allow NATO troops to do more than just put out fires as they appear, or reacting to what ever the Taliban throw at us , Thats what Guerrilla warfare is all about, keeping your opponet off balance and unprepared.... but to actually put boots on the ground to secure the entire country. Once that is done then and only then can we have take advantage of our numbers and destroy these scumbags once and for all. putting us in a better postion to close the Pakistan border, to assist the Pakistan government in destroying thier problem areas. allowing us to Put an early close this mission or atleast scale it back...

don't be sucked into that myth when you describe peacekeeping, which does include offensive type operations....and if anything this Afgan operation would fit into peacemaking .... Right now just under 2 cents of every dollar you pay into taxes is spent on Afgan in total...that includes our military and aid assistance....Costly no...And Yes lets not forget those brave souls "less we forget" but also remember they have voluteered, and continue to do so over and over again...The average Canadian should be asking themselves why ? Why do they continue to put thier lives on hold, risking everything for this cause... I don't know where the general public gets this notion that join the military and poof your in combat....NO one is forced to volunteer, there are no carear implications for refusing to go any where....those that do volunteer can opt out thru dozens of ways at any time..... Every member that will go outside the wire goes thru high intensive training for atleast 6 months prior to any mission, regardless of how many tours you've completed...the training is very realistic, and very real...nobody that recieves this training would be under the assupmtion thats its going to be a cake walk or like some movie where nobody runs out of ammo and nobody gets hurt.... Our nations military is not a meat grinder where we have to trick people into joining, every young kid is very aware of what they will be asked to do....And if you go to the recruiter expecting to travel the worlds vacation spots your bubble will be burst by the recruiter...if not by him then by some old and cranky NCO like me... You join the military and sign on to that unlimited liability , that is fully explained to everyone....YOU may be called upon to give your life for your country period.... how anyone after all that would think life is going to be gravy after that is beyond me....we don't need our PM telling us anything....

I don't think it was as much as keeping the SSF history a secret but the facts about the JTF. other than that i would be guessing... True enough, but do we relly have to shot ourselfs in the foot, in order to make our piont , or do we give the rest of NATO the finger and send our boys reinforcements that could save lives....because that is the bottom line is'nt it....

The problem is getting the models we requested the CH47F, but the US has plenty of older models CH47's, including the manufacturer, that can be leased or even purchased....we don't even have to stick with the chinnok, the are plenty of older Hvy lift helo's out there... Perhaps a purchase of a limited qty that could be updated at a later date to the Ch-47f standard... I think i seen a few articles in CSAR about just this....

I don't think it would be our request that would do the damage , as the damage is already been done with other nations not living up to thier end of the alliance...our request would certainly highlight that.... And perhaps it would be time to relook at the NATO alliance and how it does business....all the countries involved have been told countless times that this mission in Afgan would make or break NATO...And they have decided not to support it via by it's unpopularity at home , or Anti US feelings or what ever reason. That and the fact that the European union is pushing thier own agenda, and pushing thier own alliance so yes maybe it is time to relook at our partners.... That being said do i think it would be in Canada's interest to support current defense arrangments with the US and NATO until it's collaspe or it's redesign.

Topaz No, it's not even on the radar, mandatory service is a bad idea, it produces poor soldiers, of poor quality....and would undo everything that the volunteer army has worked so hard for.... While we are short of personal, that is what Canadians want and have voted for. The problem is being addressed slowly, but will take many years to repair that decision to reduce our numbers in the 80's and 90's...and i agree with you that it would be polictical sucide if the brought this measure in.

Thats what the media reported, but not true, The Canadian Airbourne regt was given that link between them and the SSF, and bore the SSF battle honors... CAR history. Connors SSF SAS The JTF have no linage in our past to link to, even Canada's SAS (special air service company) has had it's links to given to the CAR. The new unit in Canada is call CSOR (Canadian special operations regt) it is comprised of troops given special training, ( more in line with the old Airbourne regt in it's hay day) thier mandate is wide but do have a standing task to assist JTF-2 in larger operations... No, it may not motivate anyone your right, but it would'nt weaken our postion either, plus it would mean we would have more boots on the ground...thats the key to safety, of our troops, and accomplishing more in our district.

No, the problem is not enough troops period...and the existing Canadian troops currently over there are covering more ground than they should, putting extra risk to our own troops....and while we are looking for answers from other nations to help us....we should be doing everything in our power to ensure our troops safety.... And it would put additional pressure on the other NATO nations, if a military the size of ours can pony up another 1000 to 1500...then we could get tough and start demanding more nations do more....Lets not forget that other reports done in the past have recommneded 25,000 extra troops were required....

news restrictions. I guess i was beaten to the punch by Dancer.... No what we need is for those in those postions of power to lay down thier petty differences and find solutions to this situation...lets remind them that everyday our soldiers are operating outside the wire and there lifes are in danger...( something that was not imprinted on thier tiny brains during thier vists) And what the people of Canada need to do is drop this "it's a liberal war, or it's a cons war....thats bullshit it's a Canadian war, which involves or should involve all Canadians....time for us to put the remote down, and demand our government lliberal, Cons, NDP, who ever to find a solution to this nightmare....make it a Canadian solution, but find a solution fast before more of our boys and my comrads come in in an flagged drapped aluminum box.

Care canada The above story was written by a Policy and advocacy adviser of Care Canada, down playing, and at times spitting on Military efforts to provide Afgan civilians medical care....It's sad that during my 2 tours in Afgan i never seen one CARE Canada employee, veh, piece of equipment nothing...And in thier absence the military is filling a void...one that should be filled by CARE Canada....and when the big bad army guys decide to risk everything including thier own lifes to bring medical care to "Yes" a dangerous place, that was truely in need of this care, there efforts are pissed upon by the very people that should be giving the care in the first place.... Below is the orginal story ...that day some 325 people were treated....but lets not mention that to the Care people they want to concentrate on the 75 that did not get seen.... Orginal story.

I don't know why i used the map below, as it won't support any of my arguments....but it will give you an idea on some of the trouble spots within the whole country...it also gives you something to compare again'st year by year... But i don't want you to forget that these are reported activities, mostly by NATO, or Afgan gov't troops and police....and while it looks like it is getting worse, it's only because before they were not reported by the locals and the good guys have moved into the area and they report everything... The Map shows there is a big difference in the northern provinces...very few incidents reported, some only 5 or less a year....thats pretty quite... Our problem when i was there is we take a chunk of land then leave, the taliban would come back and we'd do it over and over....that is changing now....more FOB are being built by everyone...putting boots on the ground everywhere...they are also placing troops at Afgan police and army OP's, this gives the Afgans quick and direct access to NATO assets such as helo or fast air...but also large armoured QRF ( quick reaction forces) , they are also making sure of the little things that matter, like ensuring the Afgans get paid, get the equipment and monies they need to build proper forts for a lack of a better word... Overall things are getting better, alot better( hard to tell by the map i know) but when we pushed into Op mudusa we were engaged very shortly after we crossed the start line well within our lines or so we thought........by massive amounts of taliban...now we are not see those numbers...we are not seeing those tactics like we once did...instead lots of hit and run stuff IED's which don't take a large number of troops just a few guys and a shovel... The best guy to comment on upto date info would be weoponeer as he just got back, and he could comment on what he saw. map