Army Guy

Actually i think the are still producing the E (strike versions) models or production stopped not that long ago

What about a mix of juiced up tech such as F-15E, for strike missions and F-22 for CAP...and while were at it... get the ARMY a half decent attack helo.... Hey i'm an army guy, what do i know about airplanes....

.Actually the mission was extended , well before the alleged comments were made....according the man whom made the comments this week, he has said his words were taken out of context. Comment As for any insurances, none were given, nor were none planned for, the Liberals have said we thought it was short term....they thought....but did not have it spelled out.... This is a combat mission , you stay until it is either it's down graded, or completed....Anything else is not living up to our NATO agreements.... As for kicking down pakistans door and cleaning out the Taliban taking refuge there ....thats a job for Pakistan ....not NATO, and it's not going to happen.... There are more than one way to skin a cat....Boasting NATO troop strength in the area and effectivily closing the porous border regions is the key....Can't do that without more troops....We must have a semi- secure Afgan before we decide to invade or expand our combat operations area...Not to mention the troops to do it with.... Or else all we will be doing is chasing them from one country to another.... Boast our troop strength ...cut Pakistan cash flow, until they agree to take action....make it a combined effort Pakistan troops and equipment on thier side of the border, and NATO on the AFGAN's side, and squeeze until we have taliban shit sandwichs. evryone go's home happy and thier pride intact....and Afgan gets a new lease on life...

Actually every vist by every tom dick and harry puts soldiers lives at risk....Afgan is a war zone, not a tourist attraction for every elected member to have a media blitz in....But a actual war zone, where people are shooting and things.... There are those out there that say they have every right to vist and to get first hand knowledge of the situation.... true enough. But how much info can you get from inside the wire, or by a face to face talk with the PM of Afgan....more than a phone call...How about arranging one fact finding trip, and have them brief everyone on thier return in parliment you know nice and safe parliment. Let me ask you this, how many party leaders, have gone to the states for a one on one with the president....or for that matter any western world country....just for a chat or coffee, share a timmies....So why a war zone half way around the world....

Sometimes you just have to shake your head, This is the leader of the oppostion party, maybe our next PM...The liberals planned this trip to make an impression on the avg voter, But one has to ask themselfs don't you think that as part of the planning process you would atleast familiarize yourself with the subject matter....So that you could atleast make viable suggestions or comments... So if we don't have enough troops in Afgan to effectively control the whole country....(everyone even the cleaners know this fact) How could NATO possiable take on a mission that the entire Pakistan army could not handle....Add that to the fact that there is not a whole lot of NATO hands up to put more troops into Afgan's southern districts...do you think we would get any to volunteer for pakistan... Then add to that the statement " That we are pulling out of southern Afgan in 2009" out of the combat role....I'm sure as most readers here have already come to the conclusion ,that any pakistan mission would not involve us...Then why suggest it ? Again no viable plan, just the illusion "of hey it was my idea, i done my part you guys do it"... It strike me as cowardly, to suggest it then divorce yourself from it by saying Canada will not be doing any combat roles... Sounds like a typical liberal idea....The expansion of the afgan mission, but the refusal to take anything part in it. We just want to sit on the side lines and bitch about how it is being handled...

Eyeball: I'm really beginning to think you don't know WTF you are. And i'll try to explain this to you one more time..... Your objection to military taxation and the reasons you stated do not come out of the DND or military budget period....they are not linked Nor are the corporations that build military equipment. So your barking up the wrong tree.... The entire Afgan experiance is traumatizing, hence why we are so needed there. This is not not just my commitmant but that of every soldier that is or has served in Afgan....But then again we've always given 1000% on any operation....but here is the frustrating part, the more we give the more that Canadians expect, and although they are slowly coming around to the fact that it all costs money....Soldiers lives are put in grave danger because our nation has failed to provide them with the best or proper equipment....So when anyone talks about reducing our budget soldiers cringe....because in the end it is us you pay, in our blood... When your dealt lemons you make lemonade...this new Afgan government will not be in power forever, soon new elections will be held and we will have new faces and new problems to deal with and as the years pass by hopefully their government s will get better as well.... So we did'nt get any assistance from the mother country, or france we did it alone...i'll have to reread those history books again....I don't think the hope we are providing is false, Once again, we have so much here in Canada, even if we did fail what would it have cost us as a nation....and if we are successful then the return will be tremdous....How many Canadians thought that lester pearsons "peace keeping plan" was a good one on day one.... And if you are wrong, then what...When you arrive at a fire, do you tell the screaming parents sorry we can't save your kids, because we are preparing for something else....or can we as one of the G-8 nations not able to do 2 things at once... Or is this the underlying reason your so again'st military spending because you want that monies spent on our enviroment...And if your so concerned then why only pick on the military why not all the rest of the needless depts which bils are spent on...CBC comes to mind, hell my favourite EI...

Here is some good news they finally agreed on the purchase of new transport A/C C130J. C130J

james rahn: YA, get rid of the entire navy....that is ...until someone needs a fisher patrol done, or thier ass pulled out of the ocean, or just asserting our nations right to our waters or the thousands of other things our navy does...good call...

EYEBALL: It's a proposal that will not go any where. Why did you think that is....Perhaps you think that you and your cause is the only one out there with an axe to grind....By giving CO's this ability NOT to pay a small portion of thier tax dollars they , or the Federal government would have to give this ability to every tom dick or harry....i mean we do live in a democratic state do we not... So people who are again'st just fill in the blanks could actually qualifiy for not paying a portion or eventually all of thier income taxes...becuase freedom of thought and conscience really covers alot of ground....So take a guy like me...It' bugs me that i pay into EI and can not collect it, it also bugs me that i pay into a health care system that really does not work all that well, it bugs me that portions of my tax dollars goes to pay unqualifed welfare persons, and i'm sure i could come up with a list that could or would cover my entire tax bill.... Do you see the problem here....can you actually see our nation as it is now falling apart if it where to put in place your "so called freedoms and rights as a CO.... Which is really explained in detail below.... .So it's OK with the church to kill and go to war as long as it is called peacemaking, or peace keeping....in fact they want the military to be doing more of this type of activity....I'm curious to the thier interputation of peacemaking or peace keeping... The above are not part of DND's budget, nor are they classified as military spending... Has everyone read this, just how much of our military spending even gets close to this discription.... . Perhaps someone can explain to me how they support a unified tax system, and yet propose this that would or could dismantle the whole thing... Ever save anyones life, eyeball....did it give you a warm a fuzzy feeling....same felling i get when we dig a well, build a school, build a road, or take down a bad guy before he commits one of thier henous crimes....like cutting off little girls hands for going to school, after they tortured her father all night then exicuted him before her inocent eyes....she was only 7 years old....Thats why i've done 2 tours and going back for a third...because Canadian soldiers are making a difference...and i don't do it because it unpopular in Canada....could'nt give a rats ass whether you like the mission or not.... i do it for the Afgan people...who i've meet, talked with, fought along side off...and they have touched me and my life along with the thousands of other Canadian soldiers... A people who need our help, a people who can not have any of the freedoms we take for granted without our help....a people who can not help themselfs.... So great for you, your a volunteer fire fighter, your popular around your community....but that is where your humanity stops....just outside your community....the rest of the world can kiss your CO ass....i explained how much it costs to help these people and you can not get past that....Forget all those other reasons you are aganis't this war...and rather concentrate on those that will eventually be helped by our actions....The average Afganis.... I know they are not worthy, nature will sort those poor bastards out... but i firmly believe we all will be judged by our actions or inactions when we check out, personally i'd rather explain to st peter, why i had to kill a few bad guys then to explain why i did not help those millions of afgans in thier hour of need...why i turned my back on them.. Yes i'm a very bad person, because i'm in the military, the very instution that sends shivers of disgust down your spine....You need to get past all the media hype about afgan and boil it down to the people....but i forgot, it's all about the money....tell you what, send me your address and "i'll" give you your portion of tax dollars you spent on our nations military....because i'd hate to be standing on guard for thy knowing it totally bugs the shit out of you, that your tax dollars may be used to help others out.......

The same could be said about most of the democracies in the world, is there such a place where true democracy exists ....where? And it was not so long ago that we also had laws and moral values based on religion, yes here in Canada. In fact i'm sure if one look you could find a few... But it is a step in the right direction, and 1000% better than life under Taliban rule....but that does not score any pionts, lets not forget this is what they want, they are not doing it to make us happy, it is thier interputation of democractic society that counts.... What is the liberal agenda here, Mr Dion has explained to the Afganis government that we will stay, but not in a combat role....we have done enough, our soldiers are tired and want a rest ( BS)....and now we want to hide in the north with the other NATO countries, it's time for them to fight...and ours to hide....But the only ones that are stepping up to the plate is the US and Britian...big surprise there....and just how long do they have to carry the fight... But thats not all he's been saying he figures with a reduced afgan mission, our military could take on other roles like dafur, and others... So much for the rest....same problem in Dafur, only thier is none of the big boys there to help out...Shit that sounds like fun....can't call in no air strikes, very limited arty strikes...no helo support, no helo evac...but hey...it does not start with AF and end with GAN thats a plus....won't Canadians be happy with that...tickled pink i'm sure....until they start getting the bill, then they will change thier tune once more.... And who pays for all this flip flopping....We the soldiers do....DND pays the whole shot...ya i know what your saying ....DND spends my fu**ing tax dollars and thats where i want them to go....so pack yer bags... And all of it true, DND is funded by this nations tax dollars....but while we are spending those limited amount of dollars you so generously provided on mistakes because you keep changing your minds....those monies could be spent on equipment that saves lives....our lives....you know the guys that you actually say you support... It would be nice to support all the lost causes in the world, do some good and all that give me a hug stuff....but the Canadian people have long ago decided on the size they wanted our military....so pick a mission and stick with it....Besides by the time the Canadians have finshed debating the Dafur problem it will be over....another reason to stick with what we have in AFGAN... And to say this is a Canadian mission is not entirly true....it may be a Canadian military mission , but as far as the Canadian public interest is concerned it was gone long ago....It's the men and women of our nations military that has been carring this burden.....A burden placed there by those that abandoned it long ago....go figure.... Even the liberals have come to the conclusion that we are winning in AFGAN....so why not stay with a winner...and finish off the job we started....

The fu**ing prime directive !!!! are you serious !!!! So your whole decision making process is based on a script of some SF writer.... Canada is with America. We provide them with the raw materials they need to build weapons that they give to dictators along with finacial aid and intelligence. These dictators use these things to subjugate and terrorize their people and destabilize their region. The US is a state sponser of terrorism and chaos and we're part of the network that enables them - by the very same criterion the US uses to define its enemies. By far the worse thing we supply the US with is our moral support. You should be deeply troubled by that and we should be deeply ashamed of ourselves. Considering we export approx 90 % of all our exports to the US, our whole economy is based on that fact.... We also import more than 70 % of all our goods from the US. Even if we wanted to take the high moral ground here we could not, as our economies are linked to the piont that we could not survive with our exports to the US.... So the real question is how much are you willing to sacrafice for some moral belief "you think" you have... So who is going to make those decisions....maybe the next time you check off a name on a ballot you should ask your self that very question...do i trust this person to make those very kind of decisions....You make it sound like we do this on a regular basis...go to war...this is Canada we are talking about is it not... Let me get this right...first of you want the "what did you call them "oh yes" the Hawks" to pay with war bonds for any off shore military operation....so by rights they are going to spend thier own money to send our troops overseas, and then your requiring a national referendum to see if they can go in the first place....So you want a say if they go or not, but you don't want to pay for it....WOW....maybe thats why we as indiv don't get to chose where our tax dollars are spent.... I don't get it, what is it that you have again'st our nation trying to help another out...your like that spoiled little kid with an entire pie in your hands, surrounding you is six starving kids and your refusing to give any of your pie away....and your talking about moral high ground... We are so lucky here in Canada to be blessed by so many freedoms and rights, or a full pie....and for some damn reason you don't like to share, to give that gift of some of those freedoms to someone else....And to top it all off you don't even have to get out of your damn chair....volunteers in our nations military/diplomatic corps, and RCMP are willing to do all the work, all you really have to do is spend 2 cents of every tax dollar you send in... but still you got this 6x6 stuck up your ass and it's goes again'st your grain, all your beliefs to help out... It must be nice to have that type of character that you can turn your back on a nation in need, when it will cost you so little, with no effort on your part, we won't interupt the hockey game, we will ensure your pogy check gets delivered on time.

So what do you base your decision on becoming a CO on, or is it that you just disagree with this current operation in Afgan. The reason i ask is becuase your above statement rules out many of the traditional excuses for becoming a CO. Does that mean you agree with the Talibans decision to harbour those responsiable for 9/11 ? Do you believe terrorist should have a safe sancturary to hide, train, plot, and carry out thier attacks without fear of retribution? Just what evidance do you have that not one Afganis national was involved ? The US and NATO has already proven to the UN assembly that the AFganis government at the time was guilty of harbouring Bin Ladin and his merry band of thugs and terrorists...it was also proven that the Taliban were aware that AL quiada had serveral training camps in which this scumbags conducted training for thier inter national terror campiagn, and allowed them to exist, even assisted them in training, allowed them to collect funding, ...So although no Afganis took part in the actual terror attack they are complict in harbouring, training , and providing protection to them.... With the Afgan mission well past it's 6 th year. every hospital, school and other projects we constructed are still there...and still operating....so much for the couple of year theory...Alot of Canadians think the way you do, i'll doubt it'll will take root, there is no way it's going to work , take a look at history...the mission is doomed.... what a load of crap.... You have no more proof of it's failure than i do showing how it is going to suceed unless you have a cyrstal ball and know for a fact then all your doing is speculating...the same as those that are on the mission, they believe it's going to work and only time will say for sure... So when Canadians sit down for supper tonight, they should ask themselfs "what price would you pay for our current freedoms" then they should ask if they had the chance to help another nation to have similar rights and freedoms would they....and what would they be willing to pay for such a gift.... So as a CO your nation has not asked you to fight or even perticapte in a support role... there are enough men and women in uniform now that are volunteering to do that job for you, for all of us.....all your asked is to send your 2 cents out of every tax dollar you send to support them and the mission...So that our nation can give this gift to the Afganis people... But like yourself, and many other Canadians we have said no fing way...it's to much money...are we really that cheap... Yes more discussion, it seems our generation does alot of that....much like we discussed Rwanda, by the time we made up our minds it was over and thousands were dead...hell we are still discussing Darfur and how many have died...Canada as a nation has been doing these types of operations for years in fact we are reconginzed world wide as excellant peace keepers and peace makers...something so many canadians are proud of...until they see how much it will cost....then we change our minds... Thats because you have failed to do any research on the topic, you've already made up your mind...it will fail...there for it's a waste of time....not worth our effort... So why is it that most Canadian soldiers that serve in Afgan don't see it that way....They see the good we are doing , they see progress, they see what most canadians don't... hope,a chance for peace, a hope for a better future. and they are willing to risk everything to give them that...including thier lives...now what's that about your 2 cents again.... But hey, they don't have a hockey team, or national beer....piss on them...they are not worth it...them mid evil goat herding bunch of camel riders...

So your basing your opinions on what happen 50 plus years ago, and mostly on 2 armies that commited some of histories worst crimes again'st humanity. To say that there was no good guys in war is a blanket statement...and not fair to those that did or have conducted themselfs in an honorable fashion...One has to remember what it is we ask our soldiers to do on our nations behalf...we ask them to step into hell, to live there until one nation gives up...and while we expect them to conduct themselfs as professionally as possiable... which means abiding by the conventions, moral values of our own nation at the time. If being rude and drunken and behaving poorly are considered in your oinion to be bad then perhaps your right thier is no good guys...Canadians had a well know reputation during both wars for these very facts...OK perhaps not rude...but drunken and behaving poorly was diffinently a Canadian trait and yet on the field of battle they are second to none... This is not the case with todays Canadian military, Yes we have a few indiv's that do not conform , but as a whole were are professional soldiers and considered some of the worlds best....It is here i take offensive to some of your remarks , not only defending my reputation but that of alot of good soldiers past and present.... Everyones opinion is valued, the trick is to express your opinion without attacking anothers beliefs.

The boy still is responsiable for his actions, right or wrong. ingorance of the laws is no excuse....he did after all have no problem in learning combat skills, he knew exactly what they would be used for....and he had no problem in carrying out those skills....He was 15 at the time, and over there was considered an adult many years ago.... What surprises me is that no one is calling for any action to be carried out again'st the parents, albiet one is dead. but both had a part in this whole mess...and yet they are still considered fit enough to raise the others, here in Canada... Did he know about the genva conventions, i'd say he knew those ones pertaining to the treatment of POW's...like the criminals here in Canada they know enough about the law when it comes to saving thier own asses...and in Afgan i don't know how many times i was adviced by Afganis POW's of what they thought thier rights were.... Did he know it was again'st the conventions to shoot medics, or did he know if they were medics proably not.... one could also say that if the medics had let the infantry boys clear the area first this would not have happened...as young MR Kadr would be laying with all those virgins he was promised.... So a whole seris of events have lead us to where we are now....Self defense perhaps....but that would mean he would be label as a combatant and at the very min could be held until this mess is over... The question is what do we do with him now...let him go ? what do you think the young angry Khadr will do, my bets is on traveling back to Afgan to carry out what he started....do you think his family will talk some sense into him...remember this is the same family that tried to talk one of thier sons into becoming a suicide bomber.... or do we leave him locked up until this mess is over... Just one more note ,don't kid yourself about the status of all those POW's currently held in gitmo, or other prisons...they are there for a reason...I've seen what these guys have done, most would make those mifia guys look like good church going people....

Oleg Bach: You really have an axe to grind with our nations military, always with a sly remark or comment. So tell us Oleg what is it that bothers you so much about the military... Is it that you've grown up with a silver spoon stuck in your month and daddy would'nt let you play with the commoners, or is it you did not have what it took to be a soldier, and was forced to work with daddy in his corporation, while secretively playing with your tin soldiers with the corner office door closed.... Or maybe your just one of us, a son of a labourer, a uneducated commoner, who for what ever reason was not excepted into our elite club now you hate the very instution that you so wanted to be a part of. Do we need to call for a group hug, or maybe we can move onto to slamming another one of your carear choices.

Welcome back weaponeer, hows your adjustment to the slow lane going. eyeball: It's funney that you chose to bring religion into this, are you a religious man eyeball, is that why you have declared yourself an CO...I do believe in God to a degree, I'm no thumper but i do believe in a higher existance... that all being said the bible is full of examples of violence, of what God did in order to preserve his beliefs when they were openly challenged...Lets not forget Sodam and gomorrah, my favorite is the tale of the Noah and Ark ( i guess he was just alittle pissed) and killed everything on the planet.... It is also full of references of in which God used armies to throw out other nations and races from the lands he declared for his chosen people.... Which is why i thought it funney that you bring in religion., as it does not support any of your arguments. one day you will come to the conclusion that as long as man walks this planet there will be those that will take what they need or want thru the use of force....and the only way to deal with them is thru the use of force...not turning the other cheek, or telling them "your bad and you do bad things"...but by taking a stick a beating the shit out of them, standing up for yourself,and your beliefs.

Actually you did suggest that very fact, you said you find it offensive that 7 cents of each of your tax dollars is being spent on the military, that you suggested that any offesive military operations be funded by war bonds or as you put it funded by those that actually agree that Afgan is a noble mission....And out of your 7 cents approx 2 cents of that is actually spent on operations in Afgan, the rest is being used in day to day operations here in Canada.... If you get that option then why does the rest of the population not get the same opition by opting out of things they do not agree with...such as UI or our present failing health care program....Hence why i said it would be a double edge sword. Not true here in Canada sorry. Current Status In the current National Defence Act there is no recognition of conscientious objection. And, as Canada currently does not have conscription, there is no legislation with respect to conscientious objection. However, Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom's recognizes the right of freedom of conscience. "Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms: (a) freedom of conscience and religion" (Sec.2). Given Canada's historic record, it is presumed that individuals could make a claim for conscientious objector status on the basis of the charter and historic precedents. Until quite recently, there was no provision for persons in the Armed Forces to apply for a release in the event that they came to a position of conscientious objection while in service. In the mid-1990s, the Defence Department made a commitment to allow persons with a genuine change of heart to leave the military before their five year commitment was up. CO You may percieve this event a victory in regards to your beliefs, but i see it as opening a box for the rest of those with an axe to grind. and opting out of thier taxs. As far as our governments changing reasons for being in Afgan, yes the mission has changed, along with the reasons "thanks for keeping -up", our orginal mission was to rid Al Quadia and the taliban from power, that mission is accomplished, next the "elected" Afganis government asked our nation to stay and assist with security and re building thier nation....sorry if this sounds to "offensive" to you, we as a nation have done this type of operations under UN mandate before, this mission was actually blessed by the UN it self....so what is it that is so offensive to you....does it piss you off that we might be given present day Afganis some rights, the same that you take for granted everyday...Does it piss you off we might actually be improving the Avg Afganis quality of life... what about this mission do you disagree with... You have no idea what it is like over there, as a soldier or for that matter as a civilian. Instead you disregard my reasons for going over there because it goes again'st your beliefs, fine that is your chioce and right....But as you have beliefs so do i, and i happen to think that this mission is a noble one, for several reasons...Canada has nothing to gain from Afgan itself, there is no oil, diamonds etc that would be worth all this effort..... We as a nation are not trying to add another province or bent on world domination...instead we are offering our hand to a country that has had the shit kicked out of it since the begining of time....we are offering to build something they don't have alot of...a few basic rights and freedoms...sounds pretty damn offensive to me... So while you may not agree with my reasons or methods , what have you done to assit the Afganis people or for that matter any of the people in need across the globe...At least i've , along with thousands in our nations military, RCMP, and Diplomatic pool have got off your collective asses and actually put a plan into action...What have the objectors done...Is that crickets i hear.... So you don't want all of your 7 cents back form each of your tax dollars just the ones that are spent towards Afgan....But then again most Canadian swould say the same thing, that is until it comes to actual funding the equipment needed to do those very things... Yes it was a terriable criminal act, But the taliban refused to hand over those that planned and organized the attacks...in fact the told the US that they would protect them and use force to throw out any country that tried to bring to justice those Al Quadia members....In thier eyes Al quadia were hero's... Worked wonders in Iraq just after the 1 st gulf war...Oh wait a second was'nt there another gulf war after that.... Yes very inconscionable of turkey to go after terrorist that have been bombing and terrorizing large groups of turkey citizens...and yes they have tried all your methods....but how do you explain to a people that has grown tried of being bombed ...that we can't deal with these bad people with violence...because that would be nconscionable.... Let me get this right it's all right to watch thousands upon thousands die while turning our heads ....but it's unconscionable to take direct military action that could save more lives than it took.... No problem with peaceniks, is they want thier cake but they want it for free....And the men and women who provide all of that do it year after year while sacraficing everything and getting nothing in return except you shoving your ideas down our throats....do more, with less violence...and try and not look like soldiers thier sooo offensive.... Just so that i'm clear has Canada ever taken part in a war or operation that was declared unlawful, or unjust....So why is thier so much anti military here in Canada....it's not like we live in a policed state...that we travel around the globe kicking everyones ass, because we can....why so much fear.... something else i thought might be useful ...got it from the same link as the one above. Conscientious Objection to Paying Taxes in Support of War Many conscientious objectors argue that paying taxes to support the government's efforts to train and prepare for war is objectionable. Some of the early experiences with fees for militia service are mentioned above. In both World War I and II, Mennonites in Canada successfully applied to the Canadian government to issue specially marked bonds or non-interest bearing certificates that would be used only for relief or other non-military purposes. The opposition to the payment of “war taxes” continues through the work of Conscience Canada (www.consciencecanada.ca). Conscience Canada administers a Peace Tax Fund which provides a way for individuals to protest the use of their income tax money for military purposes. Individuals may file the military portion of their federal tax (or a symbolic amount) with the Peace Tax Fund. Their monies are held in trust until such a time as the government establishes a legal way for COs to designate their military taxes for peaceful purposes. Currently, persons who actually withhold a portion of their tax are violating the law. In the 1990s, a coalition of peace groups and churches, including Conscience Canada, the Quakers and Mennonite Central Committee Canada, made several appeals to the government for the provision of a legal means whereby individuals could designate the military portion of their federal tax to peaceful purposes. At this time, such provisions have not yet been made.

Hillier nixed the idea or did he advised to have the decission go as it did....Hillier may be the CDS but he still reports to a clear chain of command....The MND and the PM would be the guys that made the final chioce...

Thats a double edge sword don't you think, do you really think that your new method of deciding where each of our tax dollars would work...do you think that those depts or programs would truely get the funding they need... only pay into programs you use or want to. How many would opt to pay into our current health care system.... How many Canadians would elect to pay any taxes at all ..There alot of depts or programs that burn my ass as well, ones that i pay into and can not use. Such as UI, Health Care, to name a few.... As a Canadian tax payer you do have a say in what missions or operations that our nation goes on. and it comes in many forms....your vote, your voice, the list goes on. You say your a conscientious objector when really your anti military period..And it pisses you off that this board is full of military or ex military people, people that don't hold or share the same values as yourself. It's very clear in your posts, your opinion is valued on this board, by most, but to state your case you don't have to poke the lion in the eye and then wave the stick in front of his face. but if it please you to do so then don't be surprised when it bites you... Do you really think that would solve all the problems the world is having today, give me a break...And what do we do with those nations that build thier own arms ...And then use them on the weaker nations....besides do you really think the worlds major arms dealers really give a shit if you apply santions again'st them china, russia, USA....come on... Arms are not responsiable for mans need to kill each other....man is...man has been doing it since he could walk....arms just make it more efficient....in Rwanda hundrds of thousands died, most by clubs and Machettes.... You still don't get it do you, lets just say one day we cut the US of from all our natural resources...after warning them to stop selling arms across the globe....how long do you think it would take for them just to come up here and take them....I think your tough love would be shove up your tough bum....Beside who would enforce this tough love and bunch of conscientious objectors, who are opposed to violence or the use of it. Problem with objectors is they are the first to scream bloody hell about military spending....but are the first to scream, why we did not have enough search and rescue equipment to pull thier asses out of the ocean or mountain top, they are the first to scream during ice storms, and floods, and forests fires....WHY WHY WHY....we were not ready....

DO you really just make this stuff up as you go, have you checked the last names of those boys killed in combat...apparently not, perhaps you should do a little research before lighting you hair on fire and then jumping on your computer.....and starting one of your rants. This whole country was built by immigrants, it is also defended by immigrants, both new and old alike. made up of men and women who share the same ideals, that not all of us can sit back and watch the world go by, someone has to stand up and fight for what they belief in, or for a cause that is noble.... But of course you are exericising one of your basic rights, freedom of speach and expression, so enlighten us, the poor, white ,christian ,corn feed, sacraficial lambs....pour out your sources to back up your claims that we are all toys for the rich and famous to play with, to prove to the other rich Muslims that they are in the same class, and have balls of gold...the size of large grape fruit... or maybe just maybe there is no boggie man theories and this is just as it is a bunch of nations trying to help another....

Kitchener: One has to admit that it is a good first document, one also has to admit that this type of nation building has not been tried for over 50 years and that book is old and outdated. sure the UN has tried on many different occasions but was rarely sucessful. So NATO is forced to take another look and try and find a solution. I'd just like to make something clear, that although ISAF is mentioned alot in the document it is not the only organzation involved here. there are countless organizations and other governments that influence the events in Afgan, even within ISAF which is made up of serveral componets, most which are duplicated in other organizations and not all have the same agenda or for that matter on the same page. And with all the above ongoing there is still the bad guys ( taliban, merc, hostile governments,etc.)that influence many events and decissions with Afgan. i guess my piont is the plan looks good on paper but survives only up until the first contact with the enemy. then each dept and government agency operates within it's own mandate...or more or less by the seat of thier pants...remember there is no rule book to follow. ISAF is more than just a military presence, actually our military is just a componet of ISAF...there is the battle group which does the military thing, then there is the PRT or provincial reconstruction team, made up of many groups Military and civilian construction types, a security componet, a diplomatic componet, and civilian policing componet, and a few other depts not related to DND. These things are happening everyday, not much media milage to be had from building a school, sinking a well, repairing a power station, monitoring district elections, so these events are rarely reported....after all it is a combat zone and real...blood and guts sell papers....WIth out our military presence these type of activities could not go on, not only do they provide protection to the workers and the people these projects are there to help. but to ensure the work is not undone. As for the lighten rod comment yes, we do attract a lot of attention from the bad guys , but better us than some poor villager...Most of our soldiers have completed 3 or more tours, everyone them has volunteered , there has to be something to be said about that fact. Nice question, whom indeed, but what a lofty goal for a nation to set for itself, to be apart of the solution that could be proven in afgan and if it worked ,tried in other parts of the world. Is that not worth the price we are paying today...Or we could do nothing and expect nothing in return, less we be disappionted...atleast now we can stand tall hold our heads up and say atleast we tried...atleast we attempted it, yes we may fail as others often remind us that history can not be wrong....but then again, how did we get to the moon, clearly history was against us there as well... There is no short term answers nor step by step plan to rebuild a troubled nation, this much we know for a fact. But there is progress being made in Afgan and it is being made by everyone involved in this conflict. It's to bad the left, center and right could not come together and work on a solution. We as a nation may not be perfect, infact far from it, but i don't think we have been pressed into this operation thru influence of others, or by other means or goals, but rather see it as a noble deed , to grant or assist another nation to obtain what we take for granted everyday.

Actually, every large piece of military hardware is procured thru PWSG, a civilian organzation, that handles all government spending and purchases over 5000.00. They have no links to DND at all. Kind of like sending your wife down to buy your power tools, or your husband down to buy hygine products....you hope and pray they get what you want ...more times than not it's not even close to what you want or need....only difference is lives depend on these purchases. No one gets a say in just how each and every one of our personal tax dollars get spent, but lets face it DND is not the only government dept that waste monies...and since only 7 cents out of every one of your dollars gets spent on defense i'd say it's a small price to pay....for the services alot of Canadians recieve 24 hours a day 365 days a year.... check the site i provided and you'll find tones of depts getting a lot bigger share of the pie and not really producing anything or providing any services. CDN tax guide PS as a guy who's life depends on your tax dollars thanks, just wish there was more of them.

Yes, but at the time NFLD was not part of Canada and faught under the british flag beaumont hamel

I find it hard to imagine That a giving the Iraq mission the thumbs down, is our greatest foreign policy achievement are we that short sighted...or is it just me. I've got a few that in my opinion would top a decission not to get involved in Iraq...Not getting involved in going to Iraq was not a big deal, and at the time it was a matter of chosing the lesser of two evils..Iraq or Afgan. it was'nt until the passing of time did it prove to be the road of less resistance. What about getting involved in WWI.. What about getting involved in WWII... What about Joining NATO for collective defense. What about lester pearsons resolution of the Suez crisies, and the creation of peace keeping... Lester pearson poll The most striking evidence of Canadians' views on war and peace came when they were asked to name Canada's greatest achievement in foreign policy. Fully 33 per cent chose Ottawa's decision to say no to joining in the Iraq war. Even Conservative voters (27 per cent) made giving Iraq the thumbs-down their leading "greatest achievement."

Here is another example of our government making decissions based on what they think is best...without consulting those experts in that field. I mean do we tell our contractor's " no i want the basement on the top of the house, and i want it built with this new locally built hand saw, sorry we could not afford to get the handle option ... Do we really think the navy wanted Armed ice breakers, i'd say about as much as they wanted those damn subs we bought...The navy has so many short falls right now it's past laughable, bordering on bringing one to tears actually...and i bet no where on thier list of things we need to buy was armed ice breakers.. Not that our north does not need to be patroled, because it does, but we need to buy the right tools for the job. And we need to change the way we purchase equipment for the military. what we really need is a white paper that most Canadians can get behind